So, from what I see, T10 MBA programs do a fairly good job on screening out poor candidates based on intelligence. However, I think it's very difficult for them to screen out poor candidates based on things like social skills, political acumen, etc.
How many of your classmates have you seen go on to absolutely mediocre careers after a T10 MBA? I'm talking things like: IT Consulting, Selling insurance, Financial Advisor at a Merrill Lynch branch managing $1mm-5mm clients, etc. If you have seen many of your classmates go into fields like this, can you explain why you feel they went this way? Any examples people could share would be helpful.
I know a friend of my father's went to HBS, landed a sweet job as an executive at a great tech company, got burned in the bubble burst in '01 and now does FA and sells met life. Not really the same as going straight into it, but his reasoning was that it was more entrepreneurial. I know the guy pretty well and from his previous job to the one now he does pretty well (apt in nyc, house on a lake in upstate, and a house down the street from his parents) and has lots less stress and can do things that he never had time for before (e.g. 2-3 waterski camps a summer, ridiculous european ski trips a winter). I think its pretty much lifestyle, but then again he was at a coveted business development job before that.
anymore? i am interested? :-)
Anymore stories???
there are quite a lot of examples, a couple i know of:
1) columbia MBA running a fruits business
2) NYU stern MBA at low level merchandising job at walgreens
3) The many people who get into admission consulting / essay editing business. Altho this may be part-time only, you would think if they had a high level lucrative job, they wouldn't have the time or need to get into admission consulting. I mention this because someone just asked about this topic in another thread.
a lot more examples but can't remember right now. Just because they have a top MBA doesn't mean they're top material...many people get in cuz they slip thru the cracks, get lucky, have alum parents, or some from a rare demographic, etc. This is especially true for the older people, since top MBAs only started getting competitive in recent years.
"columbia MBA running a fruits business"
be careful with that example. I know its not the lucrative or prestigious career choice for mba graduates but you never know that person might be making pretty good bank. I know immigrants from asia with no hs degree or anything that open up grocery stores and other random shit and easily pull in 750k/yr. lol they also lie on how much sales they have to their accountants and literally pay less than 5% in taxes.
^They also have little or no ethics...
Yep, unlike all those highly ethical people working on Wall Street who've never done anything wrong.
Interesting topic.
One thing I've learned is to never judge someone by their career choices.
We all make choices for different reasons, and you can't assume that someone took what may appear to be a "mediocre" career path in your eyes simply because he/she couldn't find a more "prestigious" or lucrative job.
Keep in mind that your priorities change as you get older. You didn't have the same world view or priorities when you were in high school as you do today. Frankly, you didn't have the same priorities or perspective about "what you want" when you were a college student compared to who you are or what you want today. And if you were to ever leave the money culture of finance (and plenty of bankers/PE kids do that for many reasons), it's a virtual guarantee that your priorities, values and world view will change as well.
And one of the biggest reasons why you can't judge someone based on their job or career choices as they get older is because for many people (including the HBS, Wharton, Stanford, etc. alums), getting those plum jobs really isn't as important when you're in your 30s or 40s as it is in your single 20s. When certain things in your life change (marriage, kids, finding what you truly love to do that has nothing to do with career, etc.) what you do for a living really becomes far less important.
The folks who managed to get to the top of the food chain at a company or fund aren't necessarily the brightest or most talented - but those who had enough talent or intelligence AND the willingness to continue to make huge sacrifices in their personal lives to get there. Banking hours certainly are tough, but to climb the ladder at any large company, fund, or even on some sexy VC-funded startup requires a LOT of sacrifice in terms of hours, travel, and lack of personal life. And quite a few of the brightest people after a while simply won't do that. In fact, many people who really value their personal lives aren't willing to do that - and are more than happy to settle for middle management jobs or "boring" less lucrative jobs -- including many alums with MBAs from top programs.
Also, for many folks in their 20s, they focus on how their lives fit into their career (i.e. you sacrifice your life for your career, which I'm sure many folks here can attest to). But even the brightest and most ambitious reverse this mentality and tend to focus on how their careers fit into their lives when they hit their 30s (or 40s or whenever they find other things in their life that are just as worthwhile if not more worthwhile than what they do at work). This doesn't mean that career fulfillment is unimportant - but that how you define what fulfillment is will and does change for many people from one that is purely based on ego (i.e. money, prestige, etc.) and more based on how it fits into their overall life and responsibilities they have for others. When that changes will differ from one individual to the next - but for many it happens in their 30s or when they get married or have kids.
Yes, there is an irony that so many folks go into business school to further careers, only to realize a few years later that it really isn't that important in the first place so long as you find a LIFE that you're happy with (and if that means selling insurance, so be it).
If there's any trend with the MBA alums that I've known, it's entrepreneurship. And no, the vast majority aren't trying to flip a company for millions - they are simply finding a way to be self-employed, or to manage a small business - to be their own boss without the expectation of millions - because that independence is priceless.
Look, there are certain people who have the careers they have because they suck. But there's also plenty whose resumes don't look that "impressive" post-MBA simply because they have other priorities that they feel are more important.
Alex Chu
^
+10
I was about to point out that you bumped an old post, but the stuff Alex wrote was freaking gold.
Agreed. Very poignant and wise words from Alex.
Yes, that was an old post, but glad you bumped it. Pricesless advice.
When 15% of your classmates are going into PE/VC, and the rest are easily landing MBB, getting PWM at Goldman, and a spot on the Apprentice seems pretty mediocre.
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/kwame-jackson/6/593/142
That said, I agree with Alex. :)
I met a guy from Kellogg (not sure if it's a T10 MBA) who was a realtor. He was broke as hell. He used to work in PWM, then tried to start a Boutique ibank, that failed miserably. The guy was a crooked loser. I don't even know how he managed to get into NWU.
B-school classes are fairly large. HBS is 900, wharton is 800, and the other top ones are all over 400 (with the exception of Stanford and MIT, which are about 350). So you're bound to see some who go into "mediocre" careers. B-school admissions is a lot of politically driven bullshit; if you fit the right demographics or come from a "sexy" desirable industry (this year it was government and manufacturing) you will have a MUCH easier time getting in. If you're a white or asian male in finance, good luck. You better be a superstar to get into a top 5 MBA.
Does that mean all the white and asian bankers in my class are superstars, and the black and latino students from government and manufacturing don't belong here? I'll be sure to tell them that next time I see them...
Of course they belong there since the HBS adcom wanted them there. I'm just saying that it's much more difficult for people in certain demographics and industries to get into an elite business school. That's all.
I'm not certain that's true that it's EASIER for a latino guy to get in than it is a white guy, per se. There's a far larger pool of whites and asians with the "right" blend of qualifications to pick from than there are latinos or blacks. For the latter, the pool is smaller-- therefore the CHANCES a minority will get in are greater when you factor in the fact that MBA programs like to take some unknown, unquantified number of minorities into their programs to give everyone a robust learning experience, among other things
That is not the same thing as saying it's easier for a black person to get into HBS-- they still need all of the same caliber of qualifications, they're just implicitly competing against a smaller pool of candidates in some respects. To me, this means that while a latino high finance guy might get into elite MBA programs consistently, a white high finance guy with the same qualifications might find he gets accepted at one elite school, rejected at another elite school, etc-- since there are so many other candidates with his profile that he's competing against. Nobody's lowering requirements to get in for minorities-- it's not easier. Same as men vs. women, finance vs. government, etc.
The people who get into elite MBA programs are ALL superstars. That's why they're there.
I doubt about that latino guy crap. I'm latin and most of the MBAs I know are not only extremely well connected but also hard working and bright people. Altough I acknowlege that they are non american latinos so things might be diferent with american latinos ...
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