Currently working in lower-MM PE. Looking to move up market in the future, possibly mega fund but who knows. I know how unlikely that is. Applied to and interviewed at Booth, Tuck and Stern, dinged at HBS and Wharton. I was going to apply to Columbia but now I'm not sure if it's even worth it. Booth and Tuck are my top two right now, and if I get into Booth I'll probably go there. Columbia didn't seem that great when I visited it TBH.
I guess from a professional standpoint, is Columbia worth applying to given my goals and assuming I get into Booth or Tuck? Tuck isn't ranked as highly but I've heard a lot of good things about how they're positioning themselves with PE so I wasn't sure at this point.
@"mbavsmfin" showtime
I think in your case it would be beneficial to apply. From the limited knowledge I have of Columbia, it is one of the best for PE outside of HSW. A huge caveat though, after applying to schools in Round 1, it is extremely difficult to motivate yourself to do Round 2 apps (where I'm currently at). That may just apply to me, but I've been staring at my Kellogg app for about 3 weeks and have not put pen to paper (too lazy).
A couple things turned me off to Columbia. First was when I visited the school the staff was almost rude in how they treated me. Second, it didn't really even feel like it was a business school, it just felt like it was a place that students went to take classes during the day. Not much of a community feeling. Third, there wasn't really anything in my research on the school that particularly drew me to it - Stern does a lot of leadership stuff I like, Booth has great classes and teachers, Tuck seems like a unique experience in general. Columbia didn't really have anything like that.
Also concerning was that article that recently came out regarding Columbia job placement. Can't find the thread on it now.
Finally, I don't really know how Columbia students feel about the alumni network but Booth and Tuck had very, very strong networks. Students I talked to were very excited about going there. Alumni were enthusiastic about being part of these schools and seemed interested in actively helping current students and other alumni. Didn't get that kind of vibe from Columbia.
@"CountryUnderdog" goes to CBS I think
I appreciate the mention but honestly this topic has been beaten to death on here and I'm tired of typing the same response over and over and over.
I'll give a quick answer to your comments though:
Everyone has preferences. I didn't apply to Tuck but was accepted to Booth and that just isn't my fit. If CBS isn't for you, then it's not for you.
If you have specific questions regarding CBS message me.
OP, a bit confused here. If I'm not mistaken, Booth's round 1 decisions came out yesterday or today. So were you dinged/waitlisted after the interview? If so, apply to CBS. You can still make the early January cutoff for fellowships, and since it's rolling it's good to submit as soon as possible.
If you got into Booth, then yeah just do Booth. When I visited buddies at CBS I too was turned off by everything about the school. Uris is such a mess that I thought I was at some inner city high school rather than a top business school. Watson library is small and jam packed because they let any Columbia student into the library. Aside from the awful facilities, there really was no sense of community since it's very much a commuter school. People just aren't that excited about CBS because they all wanted HSW. OCR is also fairly weak, and in finance it's losing out to not just HSW but also Booth.
In contrast, Booth has a very strong community and a cohesive culture. Because the school is so unique and rigorous, it draws a self-selective applicant pool whereas with CBS pretty much every NYC guy and his mom throws in an app. Harper Center is absolutely breathtaking; it is at once a triumph of modern architecture and a symbol of aesthetic beauty ensconced in the midst of Hyde Park. The renowned faculty are doing cutting edge research, and the breadth and depth of econ/finance courses are second to none. Booth students are extremely pumped up about being there; the enthusiasm was infectious. And I was significantly more impressed by the caliber of Booth students than CBS. The latter has a diluted student body due to Early Decision and J-Term. Moreover, CBS attracts a lot of rich dumb spoiled internationals from Latin America and Europe who don't bring much to the table except their parents' wallets. Booth in contrast assembles a cerebral, accomplished, eclectic class.
Between Tuck and CBS, I would still choose Tuck IF you don't mind the location. Having said that, Tuck's alumni network is fiercely loyal while CBS' is weak and much less willing to help. Tuck also has pretty decent PE network in the northeast.
Gotcha. So Booth pushed it back a week from when they normally release round 1 invites. Traditionally they release it on the same week as HBS and Wharton.
Haha who are you supposed to be now, Howard Roark?
It's a good safety school. I would apply, just in case.
That's my thing, though. In case what? If I get into Booth, should I still apply or just go to Booth? If I get dinged at Booth but still accepted at Tuck, should I apply or just go to Tuck? I found those out in a week, and have most of the Columbia application already done, so I can submit it shortly after finding those schools out, but I don't want to spend the money (and possibly time for traveling to interview) if it isn't worth it.
If you get into Booth, thank Kurt Ahlm for his generosity and send your deposit right away and forget about CBS. Living in Chicago as a Booth full-time MBA student is fucking EPIC. Being a CBS student sucks because you're stuck in overpriced dirty NYC, and because there are so many rich ballers there, you won't stand out at all in the city.
Which of these 2 options is more desirable?
Booth: living in a luxury high-rise building, spending time in gorgeous Harper Center, taking classes from Nobel Prize winners and faculty who are truly on the cutting edge of theory and practice, becoming friends with some of the smartest people you will ever meet, partying in the amazing city of Chicago where people are actually impressed by Booth.
CBS: living in a shitty apartment that you will probably have to share, overpaying for everything, spending time in disgusting Uris, competing with undergrads for library study space, dealing with obnoxious rich internationals, mediocre faculty and courses, core curriculum, no sense of community, being at the bottom of the totem pole in NYC (well not totally rock bottom; that would be NYU).
How bad is it if you have to wait a year/don't get in this year? If you're happy sitting tight for another year then only apply to places you really want to go to. If you need to leave to go to b-school I'd send in that CBS app.
^^^Colombia sounds poverty as fk
Does anyone ever get the vibe that CBS is coasting on being in NYC? It's like the Ottoman Empire in its later years, the sick man of the MBA business schools ">M7, I seriously wonder when it will get lapped by a T10.
Exactly. CBS's only strength and unique identifier is the NYC location. It helps for long-short equity hedge funds based in NYC, but for everything else it doesn't really matter. And even for NYC finance jobs, employers prefer Booth over CBS. While CBS uses its location as a crutch, Booth's foundation is built on solid rock: a flexible curriculum, world-class faculty, rigorous analytical courses that force you to question your core assumptions, a strong community, cerebral culture, and a rocket trajectory fueled by David Booth's game changing $300 million donation.
Furthermore, Dean Hubbard has badly mismanaged CBS during his tenure. He is biding his time for a Republican to win the White House and has failed to leverage the school's name brand and location to propel it to new heights. At this rate, CBS will be a top 15 program.
The way mbavsmfin talks about Columbia you would think it is bumfuckville southern state university, it's such a joke lol.
Columbia is a great school, but the general consensus is that it has the weakest community of the top-8 (m7 + tuck) and is the most expensive. That said id definitely choose it over a non top 8 school, and if you end up going there, you'll end up with a great ROI in the long term.
I already choose to ignore mbavsmfin's post but still want to comment on yours (since you are at least reasonable on this)
I believe the general consensus of non-CBS students (esp those who didn't get AD from CBS) and people who only visit CBS once or twice on THIS FORUM is that it has the weakest community. Are they qualified to comment on something so abstract that only insider could know? Can you find one CBS student/alumni here criticize the community bond? You may argue that ego prevents them to say anything bad about their school but I can apply same thing to almost every school review here, including Booth.
Not as a serious evidence, general consensus from one online crow-sourcing poll (18602 vote) still shows CBS is the fourth bschool. I'm not sure what the population of poll is but the scores of this poll show exactly the same thing many people want to tell here: HS>>>W>>>>>>CSKB. Difference among CSKB is more like personal choice. I wouldn't say CBS is better than Sloan/Kellogg/Booth even though my personal preference is CBS.
Harvard Business School 87 Stanford Graduate School of Business
87 University of Pennsylvania - Wharton
81 Columbia Business School
70 MIT - Sloan 68 Northwestern University - Kellogg
67 University of Chicago - Booth
66 Dartmouth College - Tuck
55 UC Berkeley - Haas
53 Yale University - SOM
44
I don't see how it's arguable that Kellogg and Sloan are better schools than Booth for private equity. In general I think rankings get silly when we're discussing it in the way we are here; the real question is how it best fits a given industry or individual's needs. Here's my original question restated: Is it worth it to apply to Columbia if I get into Booth and/or Tuck for PE megafund recruiting, or not?
Since I used to live at NYC, I have a lot of friends who attend Columbia Business School. Some like it, some dislike it, but really no one LOVES it....which is different experience than other schools. Perhaps I have a biased sample, but the issue is, there's generally only one night a week that is "go out with columbia" people night (people will go out with their columbia friends on Friday, and then their non-columbia NYC friends on Saturday for example), which is different than other schools and tends to lend itself to a weaker community than its peers.
And I just want to emphasize, I'm stating compared to its peers, not overall. Columbia has a strong community, I just think its noticeably weaker than Booth, Kellogg, Tuck, and Sloan. For some people the community aspect might not be that important - if you have a lot of friends in NYC, want to go into NYC finance, and cost isn't an issue - a strong argument can be made for Columbia over its peers.
Why Columbia fanboys keep denying what is empirically true about CBS?
I have said this before - I am a 1st year CF Analyst who has visited CBS, and talked to several CBS students/alums. Also, I have talked to alums from other Top 15 B Schools.
Brady might be wrong on a lot of things, but he is absolutely right on CBS.
Facts that can not be denied:
When you visit CBS, there is a distinct lack of pride in the school. Any middle schooler can tell that the tour guides are not very excited about CBS. If this was a any other student, I would let it go. But the people I was talking to were in the Hermes Society. If I'm not mistaken, it is their job to act excited about CBS and sell it to visitors. Well, I came out with a bad impression. Even tour guides at my small, no name LAC give more enthusiastic tours.
Same thing with alums. I have talked to multiple alums from HBS, Wharton, Booth, Kellog, Tuck, McCombs, Johnson. All of them sounded passionate about their B Schools experience, and offered to help me with any questions about the admissions process, and some even offered me invites to happy hours.
Besides the Hermes Society, I met 3 CBS Summer Associates during my junior summer - guess what? Out of sample size of 3, 3 did not give me the impression that they were enthusiastic about CBS. It was just a mehh. Again, compare this my undergrad ( a college with 1200 kids in TOTAL) and we sound happier about our school.
The only thing that CBS has got going for itself is Stern. At least they can feel superior to Sternies in NYC. Every CBS student should be thankful that Stern exists.
I can only say ur experience is very different than mine. So I can't convince you and you can't convince me.
I will report my experience next year and hopefully my version is the more accurate one (or closer to the population mean if you want to talk about empirical statistics)
Yup; you nailed it. I know very few CBS students who are truly passionate about their school. I have talked to current students and alums, and their reaction to CBS are totally different from HBS/Wharton/Kellogg/Tuck/Booth alums. It's not even comparable. Another thing to note on the social side. CBS has a higher % of married/engaged students than other top programs. This can probably be attributed to the fact that so many of their students lived in NYC for a while before CBS and hence already met someone and have established social circles. For singles who are looking to date someone from school, this is a huge buzz kill. Furthermore, the higher % of married/engaged also means that the party scene will be less cohesive since a good chunk of the class will be doing their own thing. My best friend met his wife at Kellogg, and a ton of couples emerged from his class. Same can be said for HBS for that matter.
Regarding your last point on Stern. In NYC, CBS students are pretty much at the bottom of the totem pole with the exception of Stern. NYC has way too many HBS/Wharton alumni, HYPSM ug alumni, super successful finance ballers, people of other fields who are ridiculously accomplished. In that setting, CBS students not only do not stand out, but they are sort of looked down upon at upscale social settings and mixers. I mean what value does a fucking CBS student offer to these people? In sharp contrast, HBS students in Boston, Wharton students in Philly, Booth students in Chicago, are revered and get tons of respect because those cities have far fewer talent and money than NYC. I stand by my assertion that being a student in NYC is dreadful unless you're a rich international baller.
I've encountered too many of this clown's baseless bash on CBS on this forum, and while it's good that those of us who know better simply ignore this farce, I wouldn't want those uninformed ones to get wrong information, so here goes:
I understand that bschool application process / job recruiting process involves interacting with multiple people from different schools / companies and feeling the vibe and cultural fit for your own, and different individuals get different impressions. Since when does your personal impression directly translate to a factual evidence? I have a handful of friends who picked CBS for the culture of the community, and I have not run into anyone who was lukewarm about his/her experience with the program.
It's unfortunate that you think of everything in terms of "totem poles", but I have a few things to say here:
First of all, while it's true that there are many high-flying "ballers" in NYC, CBS students are NOT at the bottom of the "totem pole".
CBS students looked down upon at "upscale" social settings and mixers? Never seen anything even remotely close to this happen myself, and the fact that you make this statement tells me that you've never actually been to any "upscale" social settings, whatever your definition is.
So your argument here is that you'd rather be big fish in small ponds? Rather be an MBA student in smaller cities where there aren't as many successful people? You'd want to be surrounded by less-than-"baller" people so that you can stand out as that "baller" MBA student? It would surely suck to be in an environment where every party you go to, there are accomplished people who are so much better than you. Because feeling that you are better than those next to you at social scenes trumps having access to all these "ballers" and potentially making them part of your network, of course.
I understand that you currently go to Wharton. While I personally don't view Wharton as any less of bschool than any other ones in the U.S., I know that your own school is most likely lower than H/S in your own totem pole. I feel your pain, having to spend 2 years in school (and many more years for the rest of your life) harboring that inferiority complex. I hope you change, for your own sake.
duplicate
Booth alumnus here - some of my close friends at Booth were on the PE track. Most were pre-MBA PE, like you, but some made the switch from IB or MC; your prospects will be better than the latter, much in the category of the former. The caveats are: NYC MF/near-MF possible but the odds are not in your favor (ie. you could do everything right and they will love you but they're only hiring two, one HBS and one Wharton; you were the 3rd); the advantage is the Chicago PE scene, which is mostly various grades of MM (so if you want to move up market within the MM universe that can be doable); Chicago PE can end up being quite attractive due to the work culture and just how far your money goes in Chicago vs NYC.
I've mentioned this before, but according to CNN's cost of living calculator, $100K in Chicago is equal to $188K in Manhattan. If you go to Booth and land a gig at a respectable MM Chicago PE shop, you're golden. Making $200K in Chicago means you will live like a king; making $200K in Manhattan means you're barely middle-class. It's a world of difference.
Thanks. I get the challenge in competing with HSW pre-MBA associates. The real question is, which would be best from a competitive standpoint: Booth, Tuck or Columbia? I feel like Booth and Columbia are equal on this question TBH.
I would say slight edge to Booth, but in reality, go where you feel the best fit, because Tuck is very different culturally from the others. If you want to be in NYC then go apply away.
@"AllHailSlark" @"mbavsmfin"
I think you are miserably failing at understanding human nature. Let me give you a few examples of what I call "happiness from relative status."
Do you think a person who grows up lower middle class in Nairobi, Kenya or Bombay, India compare himself to the billionaire living in NYC or London? If you study human nature carefully, you'll know that what will make them happy is having a better/larger TV than their neighbor. That is just fundamental human nature.
The McCombs grad in NYC is quite happy because RELATIVELY he is the top Texan in NYC (compared to a Rice MBA or a SMU MBA). Talk to any McCombs grad in NYC, and they'll tell you how their better than Rice/SMU. It's just the way that people think.
A CBS grad ALWAYS compares themselves to HBS/Wharton grads in NYC and feels subconsciously inferior. Like I said, what they have going for them is the presence of Stern in NYC. Again, what you have to understand is that human nature is very relative. A CBS student doesn't act smug in front a Baruch or a St Johns or a Pace MBA, but they will act superior to a Stern MBA, and feel inferior to HBS/Wharton. Why - ? Because in this case, Baruch/Pace/St Johns don't matter. What matters for the CBS guys ins HBS/Wharton/Stern.
@"youayou" I think you will realize this soon.
Your points make no sense. According to your theory, Wharton students will always compare themselves to HBS grads and feel subconscious inferior too, right? The "prestige" gap between Wharton and CBS is smaller than Wharton and HBS. I know quite a few cross admit choose CBS over Wharton (of course more choose Wharton instead) but none choose Wharton over HBS.
I think your "happiness from relative status" theory shows how insecure you are. Even if you could get into HBS, you may not get "happiness" either because of those super rich/successful kids would overwhelm you.
Relative happiness has actually been confirmed by numerous studies by noted psychologists.
Also, I feel like the HSW thing is overstated here. I mean if you just look at the staff on Blackstone's site, up to the Principal level, there are all these people with non-HSW:
Courtney Wilkinson - Vice President, MBA Cornell Blake Vogt - Vice President, MBA St. Louis University Jaime Hildreth - Senior VP, MBA Columbia Justin Sunshine - Principal, MBA Booth Mayank Rawat - Principal, MBA Indian Institute of Management Luv Parikh - Principal, MBA Columbia Brian Kriebel - Principal, MBA Stern
That doesn't seem like a lot, but many that are listed didn't even have an MBA. I get that work experience plays into it but the whole "you're not competitive if you're not HSW" seems overstated based on this.
I'm not going to look those names up, but how many of those are in the actual PE division as opposed to Blackstone's other areas such as real estate, credit, alternatives, restructuring?
There are some non-HSW MBAs at megafund PE firms, but it's very hard. The vast majority, especially the recent hires, do come from those schools. Have Booth/CBS sent anyone to Blackstone/KKR/carlyle/tpg/Bain Capital/apollo straight out of school in recent years? I will be shocked if there's more than a handful if any.
All of them are in PE.
Don't get fooled by these principles' background. The whole industry was very different back in 80-90s. It used to be much easier to join mega fund after MBA. Although I don't agree with those haters on many things, they are right about the chance of Booth/CBS in mega funds.
Well sure but I picked these people because they were younger and joined the firm more recently than 80's/90's.
http://www.blackstone.com/the-firm/overview/our-people/joseph-baratta
Joe Baratta, global head of PE at Blackstone. He has no MBA.
I don't think it's fair to look at that because the senior people have been around since before the structured hiring practices really took effect.
Finance, especially PE, has become increasingly pedigree driven over the past 10-15 years. Not at all instructive to look at older people who started a while back.
I know guys. My post was a bit tongue-in-cheek. Watch some of that guys interviews on the money/business channels. Lucky bastard looks like he's 30, and is at the pinnacle of finance..
WSO really overstates the long-term value of an MBA. No one really gives a shit after a few years. The MBA decides where you start out, not where you end up. The latter is largely up to the individual.
Another aspect of CBS that weakens it is that the school and Columbia University in general, lack a core identity and unique culture. It's the school for people who can't get into the ultra-elite schools but want to live in NYC. Booth meanwhile is super unique, and its model can't be replicated.
He probably got rejected there would be my guess. Though to be fair I'm not as well versed in all things "ultra-elite" and "super unique"
"It's the school for people who can't get into the ultra-elite schools but want to live in NYC." That's hilarious. There are literally thousands of alumni that purposely chose to attend CBS for a myriad of reasons. Many of my friends chose to go there over schools such as Booth/Wharton/Tuck/Kellogg/Sloan, because of the value investing/private equity courses, local career/internship opportunities, and vibrant culture of New York City.
Why would you intentionally limit your options? Apply and weigh your options when the time comes. Columbia is an excellent school.
Because I might not need the option, and if it's not worth it to spend the $250+ I'd rather not
So basically the take away here is that its better to be dead than to attend CBS right?
All current CBS students that I've met love the Columbia community. The ones who lived in NYC before school said they rarely have time to see their NYC friends anymore. As for prestige, Booth is viewed as extremely academic and focused on producing economists, not practitioners.
Got rejected from all other schools but NYU. Submitting my CBS app shortly. Looks like I'm ending up in NYC regardless.
Laudantium vel ipsa rerum consequatur expedita vel. A aut quis perferendis cumque sit adipisci eius.
Autem nam in ducimus sapiente sint deleniti. Deserunt corporis occaecati fugit tempore. Porro et et sed beatae reprehenderit consequatur aspernatur. Autem quasi quis ipsum rerum voluptatem maiores deserunt. Molestiae iste qui rerum qui quisquam quod quia. Natus error maiores voluptas eius aliquam amet odio. Autem odio adipisci est quo voluptatibus ducimus.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Sapiente voluptatem aut et laborum sit quaerat molestias. Voluptatem quaerat id autem sit assumenda. Quia enim sint incidunt fugit laboriosam et vitae. Quia quia sint ratione sit dolor. Perspiciatis velit quia omnis ipsam quaerat.
Odio cumque est facilis voluptatem neque. Aut voluptates autem facilis rerum. Ut rerum aliquam et aut ex aut quasi.
Aut illum quidem cumque. Ut cum iusto neque sed repellat autem autem. Eum adipisci consectetur iusto aut eligendi explicabo. Praesentium ut rerum tempore aut corrupti. Tempora nulla cum tempora asperiores ea sint.