should I have gone to an undergrad business school

currently going thru sa recruiting and am an undergrad at HYPS. I literally have gone over the guides maybe 2-3 times in depth and spent 100+ hrs preparing technicals, but in my 2 SD's thus far (Evercore and Lazard), I've been getting beat out by kids from usc, indiana, and ut austin who have undergrad biz schools.

So far, my EB interviews have been straight technicals (most outside of guides and theoretical questions) that are not taught in my school or in the guides. 

why did I grind in HS just to get beat out by kids who went to state schools that happen to  have biz schools? Does me slightly understanding a pension or dividend recap worse than a biz school kid make me less smart and able for the job, ESPECIALLY since I actually had to self-teach myself?

 
Funniest

Honestly, you’re probably just kinda weird

 

OP here. Update: landed offers at 2 out of 3 CVP/EVR/GS. I spent 250 hrs preparing technicals and had 150 coffee chats, which was why I made this post since I barely missed the cut on my first 2 interviews. Morale of the story: never give up! it's fine if you underperform a few interviews. just keep your head up and keep grinding and improving. The hard work will pay off! Good luck to everybody!

 

You idiot. Why does your title now say Prospect in HF - Macro instead of Prospect in IB - gen like in the original post? Diversity hire trying to change the narrative? You're just perpetuating the stigma that you're incompetent—holy fuck. You even wrote this same comment 5 times

 

Yeah dude hate to tell you but the hordes of HYPS undergrads that end up populating these top positions would probably disagree with you - have lots of guys I know at USC that would kill to be in my seat at an HYPS. Wishing you best of luck in your future recruiting though!

 

yeah same everyone in my class at stanford (who's not diversity) is really really struggling for SA 2023

 
Most Helpful

An adult needs to come in and give some of you guys a big dose of reality: You guys really just don’t understand how competitive these positions are and how little the academic institution you attend matters in the scheme of life. Your lack of getting hired has nothing to do with undergrad b school or not—ask anyone who does hiring or has gone through the process, you have a massive advantage coming from one of the schools you mentioned. Also, Stanford kid in the comments and posting everywhere, someone needs to tell you to get a grip—you go to Stanford, your alumni network isn’t weak. Virtually everyone is your alumni network and will take your call with that brand on your resume. I basically can’t remember a time my old bank didn’t give an interview to a Stanford kid if they acted normal, talked to enough people, and had a reasonable GPA. Generally alumni networks matter because most kids can’t even get someone to respond to their email—that’s how detached from reality you are. Most kids from non-targets literally send hundreds of emails praying for like 10 responses. For you, basically everyone will respond and be willing to set up a call.

My guess is both of you are encountering the first time in your life where you aren’t succeeding. Previously, you got great grades and your test scores were excellent so you both went to some of the best universities in the country and you both know it—so you each believe you are special. Honestly, my personal take is both you might have never actually really needed to try hard at something, even if you think you did, because school came easy and you were likely great at the activities you did. This is the first time where your natural talent just isn’t cutting it.

Goldman Sachs this last year had 236,00 applications for 3,500 intern spots. This isn’t even narrowing for just IB specifically which is likely an even more whacked figure. That 236,000 number represents every Econ/ business major in the country basically, all going for the same job. Both you seem to be incredibly entitled thinking that because you attend a highly ranked academic institution you are somehow better than all other applicants and firms should be dying to hire you. I went to a top 10 university and I’m telling you there are a ton of kids out there at non-targets or lower ranked schools that are equally as intelligent as your elite institution peers. You realize this once you get into the working world. These jobs are looking for the smartest x% of kids at every institution. Also, from my experience, many top-10 university kids take the pedal off the gas because once they get into an elite university they felt they have succeeded. Contrast this with coworkers I have where maybe they even got admission to places like Princeton or Stanford, but due to financial or personal reasons needed to attend their local state school instead. These kids then went through all of college with a chip on their shoulder knowing they needed to claw their way out of their shitty state school brand in order to reach a high paying role and change the status of their family so their kids won’t have the same problem they did. Talent might be concentrated at elite institutions, but there are hardworking sharp people everywhere, you both need to learn this.

Look you guys can complain about diversity, or alumni networks, or a liberal arts education, but the fact of the matter is it is significantly easier to get a role coming from a top 10 ranked university than not. If you aren’t getting offers there are a few reasons:

  • You socially don’t come off well.

Yeah, sorry to break it to you, but in business being likeable can actually be almost more important than your grades or knowing technicals. The working world doesn’t operate like school, that’s why many C/B students end up being very successful. You might actually not have the ability to come across as likeable enough. Much in the way some kids couldn’t get a 34+ on their ACT, you might not be socially likeable enough to work in IB. That said, you also might just need practice interviewing, while other kids are more natural and this is something you aren’t used to.

  • You didn’t study technicals hard enough

Yeah, I came from a liberal arts background where there was like 2 finance courses I could take, so I get how it’s unnerving when finance majors are going for the same roles. The difference is I spent like 1 week over winter break studying like 6 hours a day finance terms and material rather than complaining about my disadvantage. Also, let me be very clear—this shit isn’t that hard. It’s hard to know what to study, but if you know the important things to learn, I’ve had mentees I’ve coached in a weekend to get offers. The technical material for IB isn’t even close to as difficult as an entry level Econ class at an elite university. 

  • You aren’t trying hard enough/ networking hard enough/ understanding the right way to approach this process

I do know people who came across well, knew technicals, and who didn’t get offers. These people just didn’t network properly or understand how the game is played. Many firms view navigating the networking process as the first round interview. So, you need to call/ contact people and have a good conversation with them in order to get a role. Some don’t get this until it’s too late.

  • You got really unlucky 

Yeah, even with the above, some people just get unlucky and there is an element of luck in the whole thing. What I will say is usually if you have enough shots on goal, you can end up somewhere if the above are alright. In truth, the unlucky people I know ended up at like Nomura or Wells and lateraled. So, even really unlucky people seem to land roles. The truth is most people just screw up one of the other bullets above.

In short, a few of you guys/girls are feeling sorry for yourself because the process is difficult. Yeah, it is difficult, welcome to life and trying to get a job where they will pay you 200k+ out of college, while also giving you a resume stamp that gives you job security forever.

 

Also, let me be very clear-this shit isn't that hard. It's hard to know what to study, but if you know the important things to learn, I've had mentees I've coached in a weekend to get offers.

Any pointers on what to study? Have the 400 page book down pat

 

Yeah, to the below point, a few things:

  • Actually understand accounting. There are numerous tools out there that allow you to play with the statements and see how they are connected. Along with this, try rebuilding 3 statements from memory.
  • Do a 30-minute LBO test (but not in 30 minutes). If you can do a very basic LBO it will be very easy to answer the question, “what are levers you could use to drive an LBO”
  • do the same for an accretion dilution model and a dcf.
  • There is a question guide on this website that is very good. Go to community and like common interview questions or something.

I gave interviews for summer analysts and full-times and generally understanding the fundamentals is more important than getting every question right. I had a ton of times where people might have not known the answer, but because their intuition was right interviewers could guide them to the right answer. Also, it’s so obvious whether someone has memorized the guide versus gets the concepts holistically. 

 

I don't disagree with your overall message, but how can you accuse the OP of not trying or working hard when he said he spent 100+ hours studying technicals while your own example of what differentiated you is spending just 1 week working 6 hours per day?

 

My guess is that OP spent 100+ hours memorising some guide when he should have spent the time properly understanding and practicing basic accounting and finance concepts.

 

Spot on. One thing I'd add: the people who need to here this are adults too, and they need to start acting as such. We haven't done a good job of telling people to grow up. If you're old enough to vote and fight in the military...you're old enough to be accountable for your own career search in college.

OP, stop being weird.

 

OP here. Update: landed offers at 2 out of 3 CVP/EVR/GS. I spent 250 hrs preparing technicals and had 150 coffee chats, which was why I made this post since I barely missed the cut on my first 2 interviews. Morale of the story: never give up! it's fine if you underperform a few interviews. just keep your head up and keep grinding and improving. The hard work will pay off! Good luck to everybody!

 

Adding a separate comment too for OP, if the questions are stumping you in interviews because they are “off the guide” questions, you aren’t studying right. I also don’t know how you have studied 100+ hours. There aren’t that many technical topics people ask:

Stop memorizing guide answers and instead try to actually do a practice paper LBO, or work through a 3-statement model. Actually understand the material—it’s not a foreign language.

 

OP here. Thanks again, but I say this humbly, and I've built countless DCF and LBO models during my prep so I actually do understand the concepts. What's really getting me during these Lazard and Evercore SD's are the theoretical/philosophical and open-ended questions they ask and the details on very niche concepts such as NCI's. any tips?

 

If you can't answer those theoretical questions, then no you don't understand the concepts. This is not engineering. This is more art than science at a certain point. They're not looking to see if you memorized that 400 question guide that's been floating around the internet since forever. They want to see if you get it.

 

Also it seems like you're referring to BB level technicals. I have no problem whatsoever with those. I'm struggling a bit for the EB ones that are very nitty gritty and in the SD's, even philosophical. Like I honestly don't think you studying 6 hrs/day for 1 week, you would've even have made it past Evercore's 1st round TBH.

 

I worked at an EB and mentored kids who got offers after spending a weekend with me—yeah it’s a grind, brutal, the kids were super smart, and I wouldn’t recommend, but it gets to a larger point which is technicals aren’t the most important thing for interviewing. Technicals are a bar you need to get over, but undergrads consistently overemphasize the importance of them in interviewing. Plenty of candidates miss technicals and people look over that because they seem like they would be good employees. You might miss a technical and not get the job and you didn’t get the job not because you missed a technical, but because they simply liked another candidates story better.

 

If you can't get a gig from HYPS, there is seriously wrong with you. In fact, at my target, banking was looked at a second tier career for average students. The cream did PHD, FAANG, entrepreneurship, top med school, YLS law, etc. 

 

Lol so you're saying that all HYPS kids should be getting gigs from Evercore and Lazard? Read the post, dumbass. I've only striked out on 2 SD's so far and was just seeking advice.

 

When did they say that? Maybe it’s your reading comprehension that’s getting you dinged.

On a serious note, you’ve had two SD’s, relax my dude! Plenty of my buddies who got EB/MF offers from HYPS had multiple times what you’ve had so far and yes, with plenty of rejections. That’s how it goes - these are competitive seats on lean teams and yes, there are smart kids at USC and UT Austin as well as the crowd of fellow super targets who also got the SD. Just keep plugging away and maybe ask people you’ve spoken to / interviewed with for any feedback - that was something that really helped me as I prepped for MF recruiting.

If you’re really as squared away as you claim to be on technicals as well as based on the general way you chose to word your initial post, I’m sure it has to do with your behaviorals / how good you are at just shooting the shit. From the perspective of the other side: I can teach you the last 5% you missed on the technicals, but I can’t teach you how not to be a weirdo, especially on a lean team that’s gonna pull 80-100hr weeks and I’m gonna be basically stuck with you. You feel? You’ll be fine my dude. Keep plugging away and the opportunities will come.

 

OP here. Update: landed offers at 2 out of 3 CVP/EVR/GS. I spent 250 hrs preparing technicals and had 150 coffee chats, which was why I made this post since I barely missed the cut on my first 2 interviews. Morale of the story: never give up! it's fine if you underperform a few interviews. just keep your head up and keep grinding and improving. The hard work will pay off! Good luck to everybody!

 

OP here. Update: landed offers at 2 out of 3 CVP/EVR/GS. I spent 250 hrs preparing technicals and had 150 coffee chats, which was why I made this post since I barely missed the cut on my first 2 interviews. Morale of the story: never give up! it's fine if you underperform a few interviews. just keep your head up and keep grinding and improving. The hard work will pay off! Good luck to everybody!

 

As a senior person who's been in business in many capacities for over 30 yrs, you can't imagine how important EQ is in both securing an intro job and moving up the ranks. The fact is, you don't need to be the "smartest guy in the room" from the best school (whatever that even means). You need to be smart enough. Beyond that, it's almost all about social skills, personality, etc. Why? Because we have to like you if we're going to be around you all day long. We have to "see you" in front of a client. If we perceive you don't have the chops to grow into a client facing role, why would we ever hire you (when there are literally thousands of other candidates that can do the job AND grow into a client facing role)? If we don't see you as a future leader, why would we ever hire you? We don't need robots.

This applies to IB, CB, AM, Consulting (or any professional services firm), PB, Corp Fin, Product Mgmt, etc. Essentially any competitive intro job within a leading industry / company.  You need to flip the script. It's not about why wouldn't they hire you. It's about why would they. Intelligence / technical skills are simply table stakes.

 

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