Tough b-school choice
Hey WSO - long time lurker, first time caller here.
My brother recently got into one of H/S with no money and also one of Kellogg / Booth with 70k off tuition. He currently lives in Chicago, went to the same H/S for undergrad, and is leaning towards living in Chicago long-term (but is somewhat flexible).
Where do you think he should go? He is currently in consulting but does not want to return - wants to try his hand at a food startup after the mba. (Something akin to the companies mentioned here: http ://bits.blogs.nytimes. com /2013/10/20/disruptions-silicon-valleys-next-stop-the-kitchen/?_r=0)
Please let me know what you think.
you need an mba to work at a startup?
"Brother." But in reality that 70k makes a huge difference.
He was an art history undergrad, so he wants an MBA to learn finance/accounting/marketing etc. Also wants it for the network and to meet people who could advise him or work with him.
And it actually is my brother, but who cares?
All four schools mentioned are firmly in what is considered the top 5 business schools. You really can’t go wrong with any of them. Some industries are harder to get into than others, so HBS/GSB would be a bit better than those (think top tier PE and VC). Even for those, these schools place great. Even other prestigious-heavy institutions, such as MBB or BB, recruit almost equally at all four schools mentioned.
If he wants to stay in Chicago, then the Chicago schools would be best for him--especially if he wants to do entrepreneurial work.
Some idiot will soon enough tell you to Harvard/Stanford....don't listen to that guy. Kellogg/Chicago are elite and you want to stay in Chi-town....it's a no brainer. Save your money.
Stanford is overrated IMO but great for start-ups. Haahvaah is a great school but I would say Booth because of the 70k. Also if he really wants to go to H/S then he may try contacting the schools and see if they can at least help him out a little bit because they are his top choice, etc.
I'm the idiot who would generally say H/S but in your brother's case it doesn't make sense for the following reasons:
1) already has the academic pedigree of a place like P/H/Y/S 2) entrepreneurship is the end goal and the money saved could be invested in his start-up 3) long-term plan is to end up in Chicago so he can continue to build his Chicago network during b-school
As mentioned above, if he is strongly considering going to a place like H/S he should definitely reach out and tell the school that he has a scholarship in hand (and most likely a high GMAT). They may throw some money at him.
In his situation I would probably choose Booth given the finance heavy reputation as a way to round out his existing skill set or Kellogg if he wanted to focus primarily on marketing. Obviously you can get the same general core knowledge from attending either school.
Certainly could make the argument that Stanford is best for entrepreneurship or that the brand name of Harvard carries a ton of weight in the start-up and fundraising scenes. Nice problem to have. Clearly, Brady would say Harvard all day ER day.
leverage the 70k for H/S...
otherwise Booth
As an aside, no reason to disguise the names. There are a ton of people who have applied/gotten in/gotten rejected from these schools. It would be helpful to say, "He went to Harvard undergrad, got into Stanford for business school and got into Kellogg with $70,000 tuition discount." The answer materially changes based on the actual schools.
I'd lean towards Kellogg/Booth if he's legitimately interested in staying in Chicago and joining a start-up after school. Business school is incredibly expensive (I go to another M7) and that 70K is really ~100K in pre-tax income. I don't know what your brother's financial situation is, but making a below-market salary at a startup will be a lot less palatable with 150K in debt versus 75K.
I agree with junkbondswap. Go to Booth if the plan is entrepreneurship and to stay in Chicago. The scholarship is what makes the difference. $70k is extremely powerful for a new entrepreneur and the difference between Booth and H/S just isn't meaningful enough (for an entrepreneur looking to stay in Chicago) to justify the added cost.
Diversify away from the H/S ug with a new network in Chicago. Take Booth (which is probably Kellogg). It's a perfect fit since the guy wants to live in Chi and the money makes it a no brainer.
Yeah if he really wants to stay in Chicago and work on the burgeoning startup scene there, then take the money and do Booth/Kellogg. The advantage of HBS/Stanford lies more in silicon valley, traditional finance, and in the case of HBS if you go abroad. Tough call either way though since HBS/Stanford are such big names. But in your bro's case it may not make as much sense. For the vast majority of cross-admits, obviously go to the better school, but as is the case with anything in life, it really depends.
Thanks for all the responses - he's not a WSO user but I'll show him this tonight.
DC: fair enough. He went to Stanford undergrad and is deciding between the GSB and Kellogg. And he's leaning towards Chicago long term but is pretty flexible.
Not sure how much this colors the analysis - he's also saved enough to not have to take on debt to get an MBA.
What's the startup scene like at Kellogg and in Chicago in general these days? I've heard a lot of press about 1871 etc but wondering if it's more noise than substance.
And again, thanks for the responses, much appreciated.
I disagree with the others. I'd pay and go to Stanford.
Although if he's leaning towards staying in Chicago long-term, then that changes things. Tbh I don't even know why he needs to go to b-school at all for this.
Hmm. This changes my thoughts. First, if he has enough money saved up that he won't be taking out loans, it drastically changes the cost-benefit calculus. Yes, he will still be saving $70K, but there's a difference between paying out of your pocket full-price for HBS/Stanford and taking out loans to do so. Second, if he's "leaning" towards Chicago but is pretty flexible, then the imperative of attending Booth/Kellogg just isn't there. When I read your original post, I was under the impression that he's committed to Chicago for the long haul due to personal reasons. Kellogg is awesome, but it does not have the clout outside of Chicago that HBS and Stanford have (by the way, why has he already ruled out HBS?). Third, the startup scene in Chicago is growing, but it's still small and struggling. A lot of this has to do with the limitations of the city itself rather than lack of interest. I know Rahm Emmanuel is trying very hard to grow the startup industry, but the fact of the matter is, the city is simply not on the radar for the best technical talents. And its brutal weather and Midwest location certainly don't help either. 1871 is interesting and cool but as of now it's more noise than substance. Again this could change in the coming years, but your brother should not make his mba decision based on a nascent startup scene.
If the whole food startup thing falls through, and if your brother needs a job, nothing would be as impressive as Stanford undergrad/Harvard grad. With that on your resume, you should be able to get a job anywhere. So I guess it depends on how risk averse your brother is or isn't.
Stanford is clearly the more elite business school between it and Kellogg; however, given the price tag, location and post graduation interests I'd go with Kellogg--it's still a very elite program. Besides, he should already have a Stanford network--it would be nice if he could expand his network to Northwestern as well. Like, if I went to UVa undergrad I probably wouldn't go to Darden MBA--I'd want to maximize the expansion of my network.
Your analogy is flawed. I understand what you are trying to say; it's good to expand your networks. But Stanford GSB is one of the 2 best b-schools in the world along with HBS, so double dipping in this case is a pretty good thing. In the case of the UVA example, Darden is good, but if a UVA alum can get into a M7 program he's obviously gonna go there. The same is not true for a Stanford or Harvard alum; they are not gonna go to a "lower" b-school just so he can expand his network to multiple schools.
In addition, mba alums usually don't help out undergrad alums. This is particularly true for the larger schools such as Harvard, Penn, Columbia, Stanford. Dartmouth and Yale are very different from what I have heard. So even though the OP's brother has access to the Stanford undergrad network, he doesn't have access to the MBA network. Yes, he could probably e-mail GSB students/alums and introduce himself, and maybe he may get a few responses, but it's nothing like actually attending GSB and making friends, working on startups, meeting with companies, etc. Totally different ball game.
why is he even considering an MBA?
I would seriously consider the need for an MBA if he is 100% set on the startup - $100k can get a lot of awesome real world experience that would be more applicable. That being said, that wasn't your question.
If he's only thinking in terms of $/his startup I'd recommend: 1. Kellog 2. Stanford 3. Booth
If he is really focusing on accounting/finance for a startup I know a guy who's in the chicago area with expertise in this area - could come up with an arrangement that saves him quite a bit of $ on mba
This is a no-brainer... he should go to H / S.
An additional 70k doesn't matter in the long run. Where he went business school will have a longer lasting effect on his job opportunities if he decides to change his mind later on down the road. That being said, H / S holds far more weight than Kellogg / Booth. They're really not comparable in terms of prestige and recognition.
BOOTH
Your brother obviously has the smarts for both, but I believe it's very unwise to spend any money on grad school if he wants to open up a food start up. The finance and marketing aspect can be self learned without the price tag of grad school. I would suggest your brother work for the type of start up he wants to create. That way he is learning skills most specific to his needs, which no MBA program will teach him.
^ This. Unless he's actually looking for people to launch the start-up with.
Look at poets and quants top 100 mba start ups. Literally like 80% or more are from HBS or Stanford. The culture of entrepreneurship is what he needs and if that doesn't exist at Kellogg or Booth then he should definitely go to HBS or Stanford. Actually, I'd even say HBS because there are more students so more people/ideas to bounce around.
To me this is not a question of school ranking or money. This is a question of school/student body culture. He should be where the most wanna be entrepreneurs are at.
Take the money and run!
I kinda question the need for an MBA if he genuinely wants to do a start-up. But if he's looking for a network, Stanford clearly has the advantage over Kellogg, and I think in the long-run that's worth more than $70k. For those saying you don't need to "double dip": MBA network=/=undergrad.
But this is just me pontificating on the internet. I've never lived in Chicago, let-alone tried to start a business there. He should definitely visit both schools and try to get a feel for the entrepreneurship community at each.
The OP clearly stated that his brother has a business that he's already targeting. He doesn't need a Stanford network to start a particular business in a particular city already selected.
Pretty sure he said the 'brother' was "leaning Chicago but was flexible."
The preponderance of the evidence is overwhelming: 1) he's already a Stanford grad; 2) he already has a business selected or targeted; 3) he is pretty sure he wants to remain in Chicago; and 4) Kellogg is far cheaper.
Add up the evidence and the right selection is Kellogg. Hands down.
If he is into working at start up, would definitely consider Stanford regardless of the price difference. Can't put a price on your passion. Both and Kellog are great schools, but only if he was into the typical MBA career path.
What is 1871?
1871 is a major startup incubator in Chicago.
Unless there are some truly compelling personal reasons to stay in Chicago during these 2 years, I would leave the 70k on the table and go to Stanford.
for me this is a no-brainer especially for someone interested in entrepreneurship. GSB grads and Art History undergrads do not share the same network by any stretch of the imagination and the GSB brand/network are materially superior to Kellogg's. It doesn't matter if he already has a job in mind - the advantage is not limited to placement upon graduation. It is permanent and places him in a much more elite/exclusive group for the entirety of his career.
This is completely false. The primary benefit of business school is for on campus recruiting and/or switching careers. Nobody is going to care in 10 years that he went to Stanford rather than Northwestern. If he's 38 and needs to flash his MBA to get ahead then he's probably failed in the prior 10 years.
I'm just stunned--many people obviously have absolutely no clue what they're talking about. The average starting salary of a Stanford MBA vs. Northwestern MBA grad is $125,592 vs. $117,989, respectively, and this doesn't adjust for the fact that it's likely that more Stanford GSB grads end up in higher cost of living cities; in addition Stanford has several major outliers each year--the median starting salary is probably even closer. People are talking as if Kellogg is some sort of unfortunate backwater and Stanford is God's gift to humanity.
Average salary (NOT median, but AVERAGE) plus program costs: http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/rankings/full_time_mba_profiles/st…
In addition, the cost of Stanford's program is $122,400 vs. Northwestern's $118,620. Subtract $70,000 from Kellogg and the difference is nearly $74,000, not even adjusting for the higher cost of living during the program.
Honestly, if people are going to give advice about business school then they should at least approach the topic as if they were, ya know, in business school.
When you actually attend business school you will realize that there is no single reason why people choose their schools. You will also realize that many people turn down large scholarships to attend marginally better schools for reasons that make perfect sense to them. Some people have no need for OCR (the OP's brother actually seems to be in this boat) and are not changing careers. For the rest, the average starting salary says very little about the quality of OCR. Elite firms/opportunities that are only accessible at the very top schools don't necessarily pay more. For someone interested in recruiting for startups or entrepreneurship, Stanford offers many more/superior opportunities.
I also disagree with the idea that brand doesn't matter once you graduate. You act like brand value disappears once you get past resume screening for your first job out of school. Being seen as smarter and more elite is a valuable advantage at any age can have many benefits both tangible and intangible. As I mentioned, the superior network and interaction with higher quality people has lasting benefits as well.
Nobody said Kellogg is a mediocre school. Do you even acknowledge that Stanford is superior? It sounds like you might actually argue otherwise given the passion and aggression in your post. If so, what amount is the breakeven point according to you? $10k? $20k? Your entire argument hinges on the assumption that $70k is a material, game-changing amount of money for most top MBA grads - people who are already comfortable with total costs of $250-500k+ (including foregone salary) and are expecting large six-figure salaries upon graduation. This assumption is valid for some people and totally invalid for many others.
You are engaging in histrionics here and creating strawmen arguments. Neither I nor DoubleBottomLine degraded Kellogg or implied that it's some sort of "backwater" or that Stanford/HBS is the panacea to life's fundamental problems. Good lord; get a grip.
If you go back and read my first post on this thread, I actually suggested that the OP's brother opt for booth/Kellogg. I changed my stance once the facts became clear. Initially I made several assumptions about the guy. First, I thought he was a STEM major from Harvard/Stanford and thus had strong technical skills. Second, I thought he had a strong preference for being in Chicago long-term. And third, I assumed that he was taking out loans to finance his MBA.
You are correct that the median salary is quite similar between Stanford and Kellogg. The MEDIAN is pretty similar across the top 10-15 programs, so it's not a meaningful statistic to look at when making such an important decision. Ultimately what matters is this: which school will maximize my chances of achieving my professional goals and help me out the most long-term? If the OP's bro was interested in a traditional post-MBA job such as MBB consulting, banking, or F500 rotational program, I would say that the difference between Stanford and Kellogg is very small.
However, startups is a different beast. If you don't have solid technical skills, you need a shit ton of intangibles and "soft" skills to succeed. You NEED to be immersed in an environment where you are surrounded by really smart classmates who are passionate about doing a startup; the dynamic exchange of ideas and feedback is imperative for a MBA who wants to chart his own path. Since startups are by their nature attempting to create a new market or penetrate a niche one, the actual classroom learning will be less valuable than what you learn from your classmates. The network he would gain will thus be invaluable. There is a good chance that his classmates will be a fellow co-founder or introduce him to the right people who can jumpstart his firm, etc. Stanford GSB is unmatched in the tech/startup scene, so given the guy's interests and the fact that he is flexible with respect to location, I think it's almost a "no-brainer."
One more note. Just because the guy did Stanford undergrad does not mean he has "access" to the GSB alumni network and resources. I already addressed this flawed reasoning in an earlier post, but you made it again.
The big difference is Stanford is a breeding ground for entrepreneurs, Kellogg or Booth is not. Every business school hypes up their start up scene, but going to one right now that's more Kellogg than Stanford in that area, I can tell you that starting a new business is more like a side project for people that ends up going nowhere. We also don't share the same network with undergrads (who are very reputable btw). Location also matters a lot (Palo Alto vs. Evanston/Charlottesville/Hanover, etc., come on). Heck even most VC firms that you may want to tap in for capital is tied to Stanford somehow. Even the link you posted is about SF. If he just wanted to get a job at Bain, I'd say Stanford and Kellogg doesn't matter. For what he wants to do, a support network and environment is critical.
You have to distinguish between the hype and the reality. Most of Stanford's SUCCESSFUL start-ups have come from 1) Stanford drop outs, 2) Stanford undergrads, and 3) are very tech heavy. Of all of those 3, the fact that it's a TECH heavy entrepreneurial culture is the most critical--the OP has indicated neither an interest in tech start-ups nor the technical skills. If he comes back and says, "BTW, my brother is ALSO interested in tech start-ups" then that changes the dynamic. But those aren't the facts yet laid out.
Reading the stats, it's true that 16% of Stanford's MBA class of 2011 started a business rather than go into corporate jobs, and 7% of those start-ups were in food and beverage. That sounds like a lot, but look at the absolute numbers: 799 x 16% x 7% = 9 students (1.1%) started a company in food and beverage. In a class of 799 people, that's not Earth shattering. By imperfect contrast (since the stat isn't available), a full 8% of Kellogg class of 2013 went into the food and beverage industry (it doesn't break out if it was start-up or corporate)--that's about 50-55 students who opted for the food and beverage industry out of Kellogg, which indicates that there is a substantial interest in the industry.
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