WTF IS GOING ON WITH MBA ASSOCIATES???
Seriously, this year’s lot is the most maladjusted crop of society I think I’ve ever witnessed. Completely overbearing, unassuming, yet just the right amount of irritating. Not sure what they are teaching in Tuck, but it must have been a fun 45 min lecture for my Associate learning the comprehensive ins-and-outs of copy + paste formats from a non-target undergrad 23 y/o.
Also, where does the reluctance to roll up the sleeves and dive into the trench come from? It must be the increasing age of enrolling MBA associates, but I think there are genuinely a few who do not understand that an associate roll is still very junior seat and there will be times where you need to dive into a model or ppt. There is no such thing as a “high-level associate.”
Maybe a superior one will eventually come around, but one of our current associates basically does my job for 2x the pay. Time will tell for our incoming summers.
It’s getting to the point where it feels like opposite day: I’m not actually learning anything from them and just checking their work in decks; any advice?
It is what happens in a bubble. Poor MBA associates are a leading indicator of a bubble and an imminent crash.
IB is a popular exit for MBAs since the 90s
Honestly in some twisted way these things are probably correlationary
Our 2nd and 3rd yr associates are fantastic. Our 1st years ASO are TERRIBLE - all great people but clueless on the job, make mistakes and my job harder. AlwYs need me to explain the deliverable and have me shell
Went over to one of their desk to flip through a deck quickly and they didn’t even have anything in their QAT - was mouse dragging to align LOL
"Our 2nd and 3rd yr associates are fantastic. Our 1st years ASO are TERRIBLE"
It sounds to me more experienced associates are better associates. I get the rant -- this is what wso community is for -- associates have a learning curve too, and it's easier for 22 yrs old to learn than for 30 yrs old. Depending on their background, MBA associates may not be helpful new, but hopefully the good ones would ramp up and can do the analyst jobs 6 months in, they will rarely be as fast as the best analysts, but they can do their job is the key. By the time associates spend two years on the job, the best analysts have left already, and those associates are the most experienced junior ranks on the team. The cycle goes on.
For one of these "mba associate sucks" posts, there's also one of those "Our 2nd and 3rd yr analysts are fantastic. Our 1st years Analysts are TERRIBLE". And we can debate how newer class is always weaker than the ones before, but at the end of day, haters gotta hate and workers gotta work...
Now back to the grind ...
Think about where we were three years ago. Top schools were BEGGING for people to apply by dropping gmat requirements and offering generous scholarships. I’m a 2021 grad and can confirm the class under us was filled with students who would never have gotten accepted outside of a pandemic.
You want real advice? Appeal to their ego and do everything you can to help them get up to speed while being careful not to come across as condescending and do your best to make it seem like you're their friend. Think it as great practice for dealing with inexperienced CFOs as you get more senior or trying to explain to the diversity hire at Latham the difference between revenue and EBITDA. At least your associate isn't billing you $1k an hour.
People have long memories and associates are supposedly in it for the long haul. You want someone who is terrible and butts heads with all the other analysts.
If you can help them turn things around and are their only friend, they'll be in your corner forever, whether that's at a round table when finalizing end of year reviews, a reference a PE fund or someone to fight for you if you have issues with the offshore teams. You're not competing with them and it's not a zero sum gain.
This is actually a great opportunity for you and can be much better than working for someone who really doesn't need you and could care less whether you're on their transaction.
^Rule 9 from The 48 Laws of Power: Learn to keep people dependent on you.
May not be politically correct, but all motivational speakers who aren't Robert Greene should be imprisoned for the crime of wasting everyone's time & money
Don't know what firm you're at, but associates rarely have as much "pull" as you describe. In terms of reviews, sure it can be helpful to have someone in your corner.…but if they are the associate who is awful their opinion carries far less weight. Not to mention associate attrition is pretty high as well. For a 2nd year analyst who is leaving in
They’re talking about the MBA associates who likely joined IB to become career bankers (or at least beyond asso)
Even if you were right, which I doubt you are even at your own firm AND in this hypothetical world you didn't plan on working in finance in ANY capacity after your 2nd year, what's the downside to doing what I suggested?
yea but they don't want to learn from the analyst sticking to the hierarchy in their head
Really dude? Just Ewww...
While you made some valid points about playing the long game and being strategic about building relationships; that vile comment above makes me question you and everything you offer. Also, let's be real it's more like trying to explain to the nepo baby.
I don't think unassuming means whatever you think it means.
Sadly having gotten an MBA myself I came to realise it’s a degree that is too dispersed in the coursework. Insufficient depth in accounting or finance to really be sufficient in finance jobs. A singular core class in accounting and a singular class in finance, coupled with a few optional high-level /theoretical electives - that's hardly enough to be prepared for real IBD work, much less compare competitively with analysts that have been in the grind for even a few months. Wish I had gotten an MS Finance or taken more undergraduate finance and accounting. Without that foundation MBAs suffer from being brought in too senior with too many expectations and not enough hard skills.
Not excusing certain behavior but are all analyst 1s (especially stub) just plug and play and don’t need anything explained to them?
I am A2A and looking through last few years I would say my group only has 20-30% A2A. Some of my best associates are MBA. The ones who take the time to get up to speed and learn the job generally do pretty well.
I think some of what I see out of the analysts toward the MBA associates leads to a vicious cycle. Some of the attitudes I see toward them leads to them becoming discouraged and leads them to not want to do the work with you.
I’d try being nice to them and also have some patience. It’s not easy to step in and try to manage people who have been working for a few years in an industry that they know basically nothing about considering they’ve never worked in the industry.
Anyone notice the bitter tone form the “23 year old non target undergrad”?
It’s so depressing that because of wokeness banks now have to hire all these non target losers.
I’m going to take a stand and only give offers to Ivy kids, I hope some seniors here will join me in fighting the ship again.
I have left the industry but I agree with you. The finance industry has gone to shit.
Diversity hiring for schools? Since when was this a thing? Have you been told do it?
It's definitely a thing. Banks are trying to lose the elitist image and part of diversity means hiring from all backgrounds including what you studied and where you went to school. A recent talk at a top BB i went to they were going on about the number of different universities and courses represented in the analyst class.
You’re a big man putting down non-targets and diversity
The truth isn’t always pretty. The argument that diversity actually helps improve efficient and profits is silly and I think you know that.
I’ve yet to read an article that convinces me how hiring people who are less intelligent or wealthy or polished somehow results in better business lol.
Besides woke reasons, the main argument I see is that it prevents group think. But by that logic, banks could just hire Ivy kids from stem majors or something.
Am an MBA ASO and can confirm I was straight up awful in my first 6 months, pretty bad 6-9, serviceable 9-12, and started getting pretty high functioning 12+. A lot of these people were not in finance previously, and despite the sell of being “seasoned employees with relevant work experience”, not much outside of finance is transferable to the grunt work expected of an Associate. Think of how god awful new Analysts can be and it shouldn’t be surprising that new Associates can be similarly awful.
I also think the unwillingness to dive in usually comes from a place of insecurity. It’s not that they think they are too good, quite the opposite. The MBA IB recruitment process conveniently leaves out that you’re still going to be a paper bitch, and it’s somewhat shell shocking to start and realize 22 year olds are running circles around you. Some people never dive in and avoid it out of pure embarrassment. It sounds stupid because they’re older and supposed to be more mature, but people are people. Most helpful thing you can do is tell them there are literally no stupid questions and walk them through everything once, same you would a brand new analyst. The first 6-12 months of IB are not intuitive regardless of age or irrelevant prior experience.
It's not different from being an officer fresh out of West Point or OCS. You're expected to lead but don't even know what the job entails or any of its details. The smart ones take an academic approach and/or defer to Analysts to teach or train on the technical and grunt work side. The proud ones keep the grunt work at arm's length and focus on "decision-making and relationship management" while keeping a light footprint so as to avoid accountability.
The banks also DO sell these roles as more of the latter - if your technicals are only average but your EQ is off the charts and you're a political animal you likely get an offer just because they need bodies to throw at the work. Of course, there's no excuse for sliding in if your technicals are complete shyt no matter how well you can gladhandle.
But the smartest ones will perfect their technicals and gladhandling AND actual process work going in - getting reps on the model, learning all the excel, knowing where to find potential mistakes, mastering formatting (you'd be surprised how little that gets taught anywhere), learning the systems and databases cold, etc.
One of my best friends just screen captured everything his analyst showed him and created this massive document he would reference his first few months on the job. He carried that thing everywhere. Shyt is doused in coffee stains. I mean it was massive, lol.
All good points but the important thing to remember is that unlike Westpoint, it is NOT acceptable to harass your female colleagues. That tends to be a big struggle with the ex-military group.
Lame comment
Right...
What service branch was the guy who took your girlfriend?
May need to review your coffee chat and recruitment process…why did you guys agree on hiring this person among more than 100 candidates
Your MBA associates did their entire MBA via zoom in the pandemic so this is kinda to be expected. Fuck am I glad that to get a real degree like a doctor you need like 8 years because I for one would not want to get a heart transplant from a zoom doctor.
Do you actually believe that the education that MBAs provide is the difference between competent and incompetent associates…? A degree where the education is so notoriously shallow that basically everyone knows that the value from an MBA pretty much exclusively from the companies that hire out of the program and the social club
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