I will be going for an intern at a BB as a desk strat. I am wondering how well paid are entry level desk strats at a BB? (I am a STEM major, undergrad) Also, is it hard for a desk strat to move up to the management level?
Desk strats are basically another name for desk developers, especially if you're being hired in at the undergrad level. Your job will be to do all of the coding that the traders, salespeople, trading assistants, etc need done that cannot be done by IT. As you continue in the position, and things seem to be going well, you'll be developing new analytics, signals, and also figuring out and coordinating the desk's needs with the managers in IT. It's not that you'll be managing IT, but you'll be one of their many indirect managers, and you'll be helping guys 20 years older than you managing programmers 10 years older than you figure out what the desk wants from their teams. You'll get to see some of the good bad and ugly of how projects go well, how they go wrong, and the like in a way that a typical bank programmer doesn't. You'll get to see how IT policies help the business and how they harm it.
This is not a great place to start from if you're trying to become the head of a desk or the CEO. If you're trying to become the CIO or CTO, this is an IDEAL place to start. If you eventually want to go into systematic strategies at a hedge fund or some sort of data science role involving finance, this is also really good experience. Just make sure to switch roles before you get to an age where a heart attack is a remote possibility. Desk Strat used to be a role that one of the better quant developers would get promoted into after a couple years of doing really good work at a bank (in one of the QA groups that was a little more selective about who got hired in the first place), so it's a bit of a coup that you may get to start in that role. The traders will all tell you that the desk strat is supposed to be one of the smartest, most competent, and most productive programmers out of the hundreds and hundreds of technologists supporting that desk. (Whether this is the truth or not, I don't know.)
The pay is OK, but you will make less than traders and salespeople. You will make something on the order of the geometric mean between what a trader makes and what a typical bank programmer makes. At the end of the day, there is PNL attributable to your group and a lot of what you do influences their PNL, but there is no PNL directly attributable to you, so this will probably never be a seven figure role. (It is almost certainly a six figure role).
A lot of desk strats go on to grad school to get an MFE or MBA after a few years. Despite the hierarchy on the trading floor, it's easier to get into an MBA program as a desk developer than as a trader. Grad schools still largely categorize you as a tech guy so you compete in a different category than all of the people desperately leaving finance these days. Meanwhile, the head of the desk is routinely heading off to Stanford and HBS to hire MBA for sales roles, and if you're doing a good job, he (along with two other traders) will write a letter of reference about how you are the programmer who sits in S&T and makes IT run well, you are one of the top 0.1% programmers on Wall Street, your desk calls the two or three desk strats the Navy SEALs of programming, etc. etc. So HBS and Stanford or an MIT/Princeton/Stanford/CMU MFE should be within reach from this role if that is what you want. If you're thrifty, commute in from Hoboken or Brooklyn, and work for three years, you'll also probably be able to graduate B-school debt-free.
This is not an easy job if you sign up for it full-time. In order to survive at this, you have to be in the top 20% of coders at communication skills, top 10% at coding, and ~top 1% at mental toughness. You will have traders scream at you. Stuff will break and the desk will be losing hundreds of thousands of dollars an hour until you get it back up and running. Traders and salespeople will be shouting over your shoulder all day long executing trades and you'll be trying to stay focused working on implementing models. But if you want to be a programmer at an ibank, this is the coolest job there is, IMHO. It's also great experience. I'm not sure I'd want to do it at 35, though.
It's good that you get to see all of this during an internship. There are a lot of ways to screw up this role, and there are only a few ways to succeed. By the end of the summer, you and the desk will know if you're a good fit for the job. If it doesn't work out, you can try and leverage this experience for a role at a data science firm like a Palantir or maybe go for a portfolio strategy research role at this or a similar bank. There's a lot of overlap here with roles that require a lot of coding, math, data, and analytics, and there are a lot more front-office roles in finance for these kinds of backgrounds than there were five years ago.
Long-term, this experience gives you the same or better opportunity to have a successful career as the tradinginterns you will be supporting. If I were a college student, knowing what I know now about long-term careers on Wall Street, I'd actually have a tough time choosing between a trading role and a desk strat role. But I'd also go in knowing that I'd have to spend 2-3 years gritting my teeth about being the poorest guy in sales and trading.
I say take the offer, but talk to family and friends. I'm also only one data point, although I sat in this specific role (in equity derivatives) for three years.
Not too many people ask about this role on WSO, because not too many people sit in it or get hired into it. I always tell people that I worked in Sales and Trading. They then ask me if I was Sales or Trading, and I get to say "Neither- I was the desk strat. It wasn't all that glamorous, but it was a lot of fun." The weird roles like the desk strat, the risk analyst (often a PhD who works for the MD), and the marketing coordinator (typically an experienced former salesperson) are roles every large team of traders has but tend to confuse folks.
The only thing i would add is that after 2-3 years, if you are good...you will most likely be able to say to the desk head / senior trader that you work for that you want to start trading, and they will give you a prop book with 500k-1mm of trading capital to start with and see how it goes. I've seen multiple desk strats / desk quants go this exaft path. Some turn out to be good traders..and some go back to the IT side because they are horrible traders but great desk developers.
You will most likely find moments where you almost get into a fist fight with a trader over a "disagreement"...but that's just par for the course. You will make a mistake..a trader will still make a trading decision based on your work..the trader will lose a lot of money, and they will blame the loss on you. This may happen in private...or it may be public. However, this will just make you a better more focused desk strat...and it will ultimately make you a better trader (if you decide to go that route).
I am a proprietary Govt Bond Trader...i post my comments on the mkt intraday at twitter...and longer articles on my blog. I've accumulated a lot of educational info in these blogs..so i highly recommend checking them out
http://govttrader.blogspot.com
LOL, I love it how the traders call even the desk strats on their teams sitting under their desk's PNL, working for their MD IT. We'd always wince when they call us the IT guy rather than the desk programmer, and I think a lot of traders do it just to annoy us. :D
I'll agree that bad strats don't become sell-side traders, but I am not a total buyer of the notion that the best desk strats become the traders they work for. I know there's a hierarchy, and everyone at the bank wants to climb it, but the desk strat can head to a systematic team at a Bridgewater or AQR or head for Twitter, Palantir, or Google, and the trader can't. These days I'd call the pay for a guy with an analytics background in tech comparable to most sell-side traders' if you have average risk aversion. I've also seen a number of sell-side traders, at least on the equities side, leaving for MBA programs.
The desk strat and to some extent the risk analyst aren't always the perfect cultural fits for the rest of the trading team. S&T- at least in the liquid equities derivatives- is like a high school football team, and you are the geek who has to try their best to fit in. You like a lot of the people you work with- you respect all of them- but you'd feel more at home at a tech company or a quant fund. There's also the issue that trading and coding- even on a fast development cycle- are two completely different skillsets. Your job is to look carefully at data and models and pick out insights, code stuff up quickly without introducing bugs, and understand some quant when he is throwing a lot of rapid-fire terms at you. The trader's job is to go up to bat with DE Shaw and make a 15-20 second decision on a bid or ask with $10 million notional at stake. The two jobs are about as different as an NFL linebacker's and well, a desk developer's.
OP, the good news is that after sitting on the trading floor for 12 months, you will know exactly what you're good at and exactly what you suck at in AGONIZING detail. People will ask you if you're good at making trading decisions, and your answer will either be an immediate "NO" or "YES". People will ask you if you're a good coder, and if you are still a strat after 12-18 months, your answer will be "YES" or at least "I know I don't suck."
This depends on the bank though. At my BB desk strats have nothing to do with that. They just do like prop trade ideas, they just can't trade but we put many of their ideas on our books. What you guys are talking about are called desk quants here.
Let me share me and my friends coz we are from same background;
>Salary(normal case):
Start with 120 ~ 125k base first year in BB desk strats. bonus 20% ~ 30%
2 years later: Going to hedge fund starts like 150 k ~ 160k + 30 ~ 50 % bonus. one outlier like 185k base but I am not going to show here as a normal case;
2 years later: Still at bank, 135 ~ 145 k 20% ~ 30%
>Career path: It depends on what you want. Quant to Quant ; Quant to data; quant to algo trader; quant to startup. This is what me and my friends end up now.
Is this New York? A recruiter at GS told me "low 100s base, mid 100s all in" for an associate (I have ~2 years experience in SF, thinking about moving to finance). I would think that 135k base is a bit of a stretch for "low 100s", but then again I have heard GS pays a bit lower than others.
Yes, its NY. If no prior experience, that number sounds reasonable. They will treat you as more experienced Junior but not same as 2 year quant = ) But try hard to get as much as you can of course. I dont know SF how this number interpretate. Once a hedge funds offered me 100k base at PA translate to 160k in NY. So you have to look at relative number too.
Plus, Bonus varies depends on performance. (But its not P&L linked). Anything 20% ~ 40% possible. I put 40% here because its an outlier that I know.
Cum fuga nobis soluta dicta dolorum. Et omnis sed delectus. Quasi odit quae dolore dignissimos expedita molestiae sequi. Sit repellat est labore. Reiciendis eum quis eum libero hic officia ratione quia.
Cupiditate autem necessitatibus excepturi magnam accusantium. Quidem dicta repellat nihil voluptas iste numquam sapiente. Autem nesciunt tempora itaque. Ipsa et eius explicabo laboriosam similique provident non. Similique voluptatem sunt dolorem veritatis alias adipisci voluptatem. Dicta et perspiciatis libero in. Enim accusamus maxime explicabo rerum animi.
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Desk strats are basically another name for desk developers, especially if you're being hired in at the undergrad level. Your job will be to do all of the coding that the traders, salespeople, trading assistants, etc need done that cannot be done by IT. As you continue in the position, and things seem to be going well, you'll be developing new analytics, signals, and also figuring out and coordinating the desk's needs with the managers in IT. It's not that you'll be managing IT, but you'll be one of their many indirect managers, and you'll be helping guys 20 years older than you managing programmers 10 years older than you figure out what the desk wants from their teams. You'll get to see some of the good bad and ugly of how projects go well, how they go wrong, and the like in a way that a typical bank programmer doesn't. You'll get to see how IT policies help the business and how they harm it.
This is not a great place to start from if you're trying to become the head of a desk or the CEO. If you're trying to become the CIO or CTO, this is an IDEAL place to start. If you eventually want to go into systematic strategies at a hedge fund or some sort of data science role involving finance, this is also really good experience. Just make sure to switch roles before you get to an age where a heart attack is a remote possibility. Desk Strat used to be a role that one of the better quant developers would get promoted into after a couple years of doing really good work at a bank (in one of the QA groups that was a little more selective about who got hired in the first place), so it's a bit of a coup that you may get to start in that role. The traders will all tell you that the desk strat is supposed to be one of the smartest, most competent, and most productive programmers out of the hundreds and hundreds of technologists supporting that desk. (Whether this is the truth or not, I don't know.)
The pay is OK, but you will make less than traders and salespeople. You will make something on the order of the geometric mean between what a trader makes and what a typical bank programmer makes. At the end of the day, there is PNL attributable to your group and a lot of what you do influences their PNL, but there is no PNL directly attributable to you, so this will probably never be a seven figure role. (It is almost certainly a six figure role).
A lot of desk strats go on to grad school to get an MFE or MBA after a few years. Despite the hierarchy on the trading floor, it's easier to get into an MBA program as a desk developer than as a trader. Grad schools still largely categorize you as a tech guy so you compete in a different category than all of the people desperately leaving finance these days. Meanwhile, the head of the desk is routinely heading off to Stanford and HBS to hire MBA for sales roles, and if you're doing a good job, he (along with two other traders) will write a letter of reference about how you are the programmer who sits in S&T and makes IT run well, you are one of the top 0.1% programmers on Wall Street, your desk calls the two or three desk strats the Navy SEALs of programming, etc. etc. So HBS and Stanford or an MIT/Princeton/Stanford/CMU MFE should be within reach from this role if that is what you want. If you're thrifty, commute in from Hoboken or Brooklyn, and work for three years, you'll also probably be able to graduate B-school debt-free.
This is not an easy job if you sign up for it full-time. In order to survive at this, you have to be in the top 20% of coders at communication skills, top 10% at coding, and ~top 1% at mental toughness. You will have traders scream at you. Stuff will break and the desk will be losing hundreds of thousands of dollars an hour until you get it back up and running. Traders and salespeople will be shouting over your shoulder all day long executing trades and you'll be trying to stay focused working on implementing models. But if you want to be a programmer at an ibank, this is the coolest job there is, IMHO. It's also great experience. I'm not sure I'd want to do it at 35, though.
It's good that you get to see all of this during an internship. There are a lot of ways to screw up this role, and there are only a few ways to succeed. By the end of the summer, you and the desk will know if you're a good fit for the job. If it doesn't work out, you can try and leverage this experience for a role at a data science firm like a Palantir or maybe go for a portfolio strategy research role at this or a similar bank. There's a lot of overlap here with roles that require a lot of coding, math, data, and analytics, and there are a lot more front-office roles in finance for these kinds of backgrounds than there were five years ago.
Long-term, this experience gives you the same or better opportunity to have a successful career as the trading interns you will be supporting. If I were a college student, knowing what I know now about long-term careers on Wall Street, I'd actually have a tough time choosing between a trading role and a desk strat role. But I'd also go in knowing that I'd have to spend 2-3 years gritting my teeth about being the poorest guy in sales and trading.
I say take the offer, but talk to family and friends. I'm also only one data point, although I sat in this specific role (in equity derivatives) for three years.
Not too many people ask about this role on WSO, because not too many people sit in it or get hired into it. I always tell people that I worked in Sales and Trading. They then ask me if I was Sales or Trading, and I get to say "Neither- I was the desk strat. It wasn't all that glamorous, but it was a lot of fun." The weird roles like the desk strat, the risk analyst (often a PhD who works for the MD), and the marketing coordinator (typically an experienced former salesperson) are roles every large team of traders has but tend to confuse folks.
You may be able to get better advice on this from quantnet: http://www.quantnet.com
this response by IlliniProgrammer is spot on.
The only thing i would add is that after 2-3 years, if you are good...you will most likely be able to say to the desk head / senior trader that you work for that you want to start trading, and they will give you a prop book with 500k-1mm of trading capital to start with and see how it goes. I've seen multiple desk strats / desk quants go this exaft path. Some turn out to be good traders..and some go back to the IT side because they are horrible traders but great desk developers.
You will most likely find moments where you almost get into a fist fight with a trader over a "disagreement"...but that's just par for the course. You will make a mistake..a trader will still make a trading decision based on your work..the trader will lose a lot of money, and they will blame the loss on you. This may happen in private...or it may be public. However, this will just make you a better more focused desk strat...and it will ultimately make you a better trader (if you decide to go that route).
LOL, I love it how the traders call even the desk strats on their teams sitting under their desk's PNL, working for their MD IT. We'd always wince when they call us the IT guy rather than the desk programmer, and I think a lot of traders do it just to annoy us. :D
I'll agree that bad strats don't become sell-side traders, but I am not a total buyer of the notion that the best desk strats become the traders they work for. I know there's a hierarchy, and everyone at the bank wants to climb it, but the desk strat can head to a systematic team at a Bridgewater or AQR or head for Twitter, Palantir, or Google, and the trader can't. These days I'd call the pay for a guy with an analytics background in tech comparable to most sell-side traders' if you have average risk aversion. I've also seen a number of sell-side traders, at least on the equities side, leaving for MBA programs.
The desk strat and to some extent the risk analyst aren't always the perfect cultural fits for the rest of the trading team. S&T- at least in the liquid equities derivatives- is like a high school football team, and you are the geek who has to try their best to fit in. You like a lot of the people you work with- you respect all of them- but you'd feel more at home at a tech company or a quant fund. There's also the issue that trading and coding- even on a fast development cycle- are two completely different skillsets. Your job is to look carefully at data and models and pick out insights, code stuff up quickly without introducing bugs, and understand some quant when he is throwing a lot of rapid-fire terms at you. The trader's job is to go up to bat with DE Shaw and make a 15-20 second decision on a bid or ask with $10 million notional at stake. The two jobs are about as different as an NFL linebacker's and well, a desk developer's.
OP, the good news is that after sitting on the trading floor for 12 months, you will know exactly what you're good at and exactly what you suck at in AGONIZING detail. People will ask you if you're good at making trading decisions, and your answer will either be an immediate "NO" or "YES". People will ask you if you're a good coder, and if you are still a strat after 12-18 months, your answer will be "YES" or at least "I know I don't suck."
-
This depends on the bank though. At my BB desk strats have nothing to do with that. They just do like prop trade ideas, they just can't trade but we put many of their ideas on our books. What you guys are talking about are called desk quants here.
Let me share me and my friends coz we are from same background; >Salary(normal case): Start with 120 ~ 125k base first year in BB desk strats. bonus 20% ~ 30%
2 years later: Going to hedge fund starts like 150 k ~ 160k + 30 ~ 50 % bonus. one outlier like 185k base but I am not going to show here as a normal case; 2 years later: Still at bank, 135 ~ 145 k 20% ~ 30%
>Career path: It depends on what you want. Quant to Quant ; Quant to data; quant to algo trader; quant to startup. This is what me and my friends end up now.
Is this New York? A recruiter at GS told me "low 100s base, mid 100s all in" for an associate (I have ~2 years experience in SF, thinking about moving to finance). I would think that 135k base is a bit of a stretch for "low 100s", but then again I have heard GS pays a bit lower than others.
What that recruiter told you seems a little low.
Associates would generally be on a ladder with a salary progression something like 125, 140, 150, 160 => 175 as a VP1
Bonus can be ~50% of base.
Yes, its NY. If no prior experience, that number sounds reasonable. They will treat you as more experienced Junior but not same as 2 year quant = ) But try hard to get as much as you can of course. I dont know SF how this number interpretate. Once a hedge funds offered me 100k base at PA translate to 160k in NY. So you have to look at relative number too.
Plus, Bonus varies depends on performance. (But its not P&L linked). Anything 20% ~ 40% possible. I put 40% here because its an outlier that I know.
Cum fuga nobis soluta dicta dolorum. Et omnis sed delectus. Quasi odit quae dolore dignissimos expedita molestiae sequi. Sit repellat est labore. Reiciendis eum quis eum libero hic officia ratione quia.
Cupiditate autem necessitatibus excepturi magnam accusantium. Quidem dicta repellat nihil voluptas iste numquam sapiente. Autem nesciunt tempora itaque. Ipsa et eius explicabo laboriosam similique provident non. Similique voluptatem sunt dolorem veritatis alias adipisci voluptatem. Dicta et perspiciatis libero in. Enim accusamus maxime explicabo rerum animi.
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