Decision: Jane street summer intern VS Optiver intern+full time
I am facing a decision between Jane street (Hong Kong)'s summer intern 2024 vs Optiver (Shanghai) summer intern (2024) + conditionnal full time (as long as I go there I will be guaranteed a full time return offer).
JS HK office has previously 50% return offer rate, while I am guaranteed a full time return offer in Optiver. I hope to work immediately after graduation if possible, but I am prepared for not getting an offer and having a post grad degree (if I should happen to be unfortunate).
It is said that JS has better compensation for employees and has greater position in the industry. (Still needed to be confirmed).
Both companies offer global pay, but Shanghai has higher tax rate compared to Hong Kong.
Does anyone have knowledge or advice for me? Thanks a lot.
Well, you've got yourself in quite a pickle, haven't you? But don't worry, I'm here to help you navigate through this.
Firstly, let's talk about the return offer rate. Jane Street in Hong Kong has a 50% return offer rate, which means there's a coin flip chance you might not get a full-time offer after your internship. On the other hand, Optiver in Shanghai is offering you a guaranteed full-time position after your internship. That's a pretty sweet deal, especially if you're keen on starting work immediately after graduation.
Now, let's talk about reputation and compensation. You've heard that Jane Street has a better position in the industry and offers better compensation. While I can't confirm this for you, it's something you might want to research further.
Lastly, let's consider taxes. You mentioned that both companies offer global pay, but Shanghai has a higher tax rate compared to Hong Kong. This could potentially impact your take-home pay.
So, what should you do? Well, it really depends on what's most important to you. If job security and starting work immediately after graduation is your top priority, then Optiver might be the better choice. However, if you're willing to take a risk for potentially better compensation and a stronger industry position, then Jane Street could be the way to go.
Remember, there's no right or wrong choice here. It's all about what aligns best with your career goals and personal circumstances. Good luck!
Sources: 2021 Summer Analyst Program for Hong Kong/Singapore, Internship Choices (PE vs IB), Full time Offer vs. Potential Hedge Fund Internship
Super. I even cannot distinguish you from a real person. Thanks for your advice.
Are you graduating in 2024 or 2025? If the latter then the risk of no return offer is less as you still have the opportunity to recruit for full time positions elsewhere during your last year of university while it's considerably more risk if you will have graduated by summer of 2024 and then don't get a return offer.
Whether you prefer to be in HK or Shanghai should also be a big factor. I'm not certain about this but I suspect it is somewhat rare for Shanghai based employees to find new roles outside of China/HK while HK is seen as a global financial center and should have reasonable mobility to at least Singapore/London (US is generally tough other than internal transfers due to visa reasons).
I am graduating in 2025. However, because I am a mainland China student, opportunities for best international quant companies are not easily accessible and I am afraid I may not get a full time offer in a company comparable to these two in 2025 if I cannot get a full time from this summer internship.
As for the working location I prefer Hong Kong a little bit because I love the culture there. However, I really cannot guarantee having a return offer from Jane Street. This makes my decision a little bit difficult to make.
It does seem to be a difficult decision in that case. I'm not sure if you have any clarity into how likely you would be able to get a full time offer from either company if you interned at the other one (presumably you would need to reinterview) but that is another potential factor to consider too.
JS return rates are not very high and absolutely world class candidates often fail to get a return offer (I know plenty of IMO medallists and ultra-smart guys who did not get return offers from JS QT, at least in the US). This is not nearly as ambiguous a decision as you might think - take Optiver full-time. Paywise there will be little to no difference after a few years, and this is a bad market to be recruiting FT into (yes, even with JS on your resume - your competition will have SIG, JS, CitSec, Optiver, etc, on theirs, and they'll all interview very strongly).
Thanks for your advice
I think it's certainly true that a lot of talented interns at JS don't get return offers but there are also a lot of really mathematically talented people out there who aren't well suited to be traders at JS even if they would do very well doing something else in finance (quant research at some firms is quite different than trading at JS) or outside of finance like tech, academia etc. I think finding the right fit is a big part of internships and that even if JS offer rate is ~50% the joint probability of being a good fit for a trading role at JS or a similar firm but not getting a return offer is much lower. And even with the guaranteed offer at Optiver there is also some chance after the internship it won't seem like the right fit. That being said a guaranteed offer is still nice especially if you are very confident you want to be a trader at a firm like JS or Optiver.
I'm not entirely sure about taxes but I think similar pretax income in HK and Shanghai would lead to almost 50% more post-tax income in HK.
Yeah for sure, IMO medals are a proxy for trading ability/enjoyment but like any other metric the overlap is nowhere near perfect. I disagree, however, on the joint probability aspect: I think most of the incoming class for JS QT are pretty well suited to the job and want a return offer, so the joint probability doesn't end up being that much lower, and very many people who want the internship and would do well at it still do not get it (and I don't think OP can rely on this 50% number being fixed, I know JS doesn't give offers in this kind of way and if they deem your cohort uncompetitive it will be lower, etc). Fit is always relevant and Optiver's culture is for sure more fratty than JS but even so I think taking the guaranteed offer is better.
I'm not familiar with HK tax brackets so can't comment on that, and of course it depends on OP's utility function etc.
I agree. I guess not getting a return offer and looking for positions in more suitable places might be a better result for people who are talented but not suitable for a trader position.
https://www.thediff.co/archive/jane-street/
Great read from Byrne Hobart I came across yesterday. Best of luck with whichever you choose.
(saved - jane street)
thx
I'd take the Optiver role unless being in HK is very important for you (location or taxes). Internally mobility within Optiver is fairly high so it's unlikely you'll be stuck in Shanghai + Optiver's name is well known enough to recruiters if you want to move elsewhere (outside of and within mainland China).
Optiver Shanghai is a well established and one of the best international prop shop offices trading into the mainland. That being said, you'll be mostly trading China onshore markets whereas at JS HK you'll have exposure to international markets. Comp scaling will be similar although I'd say Optiver has faster upside if you do well and COL will be cheaper in Shanghai which partially offsets the tax gains from being in HK. Lastly the guaranteed offer is great peace of mind, compared to a coin flip at JS. It will make the internship experience more enjoyable as well knowing you can focus on learning rather than fighting for a seat + overall prop shop hiring is slowing down due to market conditions and overhiring post covid so I wouldn't be surprised if offer rates were even lower this year.
https://www.efinancialcareers.sg/news/2023/11/prop-trading-hft-internsh…
High internal mobility within Optiver is certainly relevant and important and maybe my experience is atypical but I haven't seen many cases of well paid experienced hires working in one country for that particular market (and onshore China is particularly idiosyncratic) externally recruiting to work in another region focusing in another market. Of course if you can build a strong professional network outside of China or some firm is trading onshore China from elsewhere (I understand this is somewhat difficult for regulatory reasons) then you might have more luck externally recruiting.
Do you reckon JS London will have lower return offer rates than 2023 as well? 2023 was 28% so surely it can't get worse right?
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