Jane Street vs. DE Shaw
Jane St. & D. E. Shaw - who do you go with for ENTRY LEVEL TRADING?
Compare and contrast:
Learning Curve: Jane St has an awesome training program, DE Shaw doesn't provide as much training but has a steep learning curve
Compensation: Jane St. trader entry level $60k+bonus ($60k) vs. DE Shaw ~$110k and smaller bonus. Where would you be in a couple years?
Environment: Jane St you can make more of an impact an potentially make more, DE Shaw you can get lots of exposure but could drown in the sea
Also keep in mind Jane St looks to be hiring and gaining momentum whereas Shaw has taken a hit lately, but maybe will bounce back leaner after the big layoffs last winter
I am curious how trading works at Shaw...used to be strictly analyst and developer but have branched out in the last few years, unfamiliar with their trading operations. But $20b under management vs. Jane St's $2b a good trader must make a tidy profit. I am unaware of how much trader's earn or keep or what's available to them at either firm once they mature past the initial 2 years.
DE Shaw better on a resume, but Jane St may be better for the more entrepreneurial?
Interested in everyone's thoughts.
Why do you think Jane Street has 2B capital? Does not fit with SEC filings (http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/vprr/11/9999999997-11-006296)
Jane Street definitely gets a higher return on their capital though, since they do a lot of market making with a very high Sharpe ratio. Also, they have less traders and pay out a better percent of profits.
In terms of one firm versus the other...I don't really know enough to make an informed choice but I'd say they are very close. Shaw has far more diverse strategies though (since they have more AUM), so a trading position there would probably be more flexible.
Comp is wrong for sure. I don't know too much about your other claims.
Edit: Yes, too low is wrong, just like too high would be.
I feel Jane Street is riskier with a chance of a far higher payoff. D.E. Shaw is less risk, as it is an established fund where you can do analysis and other stuff. If you fail at D.E. Shaw you can go to a BB maybe, if you fail as a prop trade, what do you do? No firm will hire a trader with a bad P&L, and you have no transferrable skills.
That said, if you know you want to be a trader (and you have to be comfortable with risk) I like JSC a lot. I also think the intervew process is far harder than D.E Shaw. I got dropped in the 5th Round...wtf? And I had to practice the math, and brainteasers a lot. I did not get an interview at D.E. Shaw, but I heard that f you get the interview its easier than JSC (D.E. seems to be more about GPA than JSC, and mine obv wasn't high enough)
How is the comp wrong,if anything it might be a little low?
Idk for sure but I've heard JSC is 100k base with ~30k bonus first year, and Shaw 120k base with discretionary bonus. Speculative numbers. Pretty sure about the Shaw base though, since they paid interns 30k over a summer (120k prorated).
Being a smaller firm I am not surprised the interview process is harder, they invest more time into selecting employees. Also appear to invest more time in training, which could be a positive for someone interested in trading. DE Shaw is great too. But really prestige is for show, i.e. posting on forums and resumes
The interview process has been beat to death on these boards so excuse it. Looking to get nuts and bolts of a short-term 5 years at either great firm
I've looked at glassdoor but does anyone have knowledge of compensation between the two?
Also, at Shaw and especially JSC, where would you be TWO YEARS DOWN THE ROAD?
Anyone know how trading may differ between a quant market maker like JSC and a hedge fund like Shaw??
Your compensation numbers for JSC are definitely off. Starting is ~100k typically and your first year's bonus will most likely be locked in around 25k, depending. After that, it depends on how you perform. If you really think you've got the ability to be a great trader (be honest with yourself), then you'll make significantly more money at JSC. Otherwise, if you just want the experience and a better resume building while making good money, go to DE Shaw.
Do you have an offer from either/ or both? If not, strictly hypothetical and pointless.
There both top notch firms. It comes down to were you "fit" in the most. You want the pick the firm were you like the people the most and were you think you could get a book fastest and be able to take risk.
Also as the silver94 said above its pointless if you don't have offers from both or one.
As for DE Shaw it started of as a high frequency trading firm, and it begin branching it. I know a couple traders there and a campus recruiter from there. Its a pretty quantitative place.
Lastly what is with this resume building shit??? If you are trader you wanna make the most money possible whether it be at JSC, DE Shaw, or XYZ firm. If you want to build your resume go to banking.
Wtf? DE Shaw started as, and still primarily is, a quantitative/stat-arb hedge fund managing tens of billions of dollars. It also has a private equity arm. Whatever HFT they do is undoubtedly a small part of their business.
Also, calling DE Shaw a "pretty quantitative place" has to be the understatement of the century.
This isn't some cork problem
would you rather be a trader at a top prop shop or a top hedge fund? Trading as a quant market maker or as a "whatever your trader friends do" @jimz at DE Shaw.
Throw First New York Securities into the mix, a top true trading prop shop that's becoming a hedge fund in a month
I buy that it comes down to best fit...but fit is more than just culture, it's the job you're doing. how do trading roles differ between these firms both entry level and 2-5 years down the road?
During the first year or two you will be doing the same thing at each of the places above. Essentially you will be the bitch on the desk . Your goal is to be a good bitch, so that the partners/senior traders start giving your risk. In all trading firms you want to be in the position were you are good sized book and you are allowed to take risk. This is why it won't really matter if you working at JSC, DE Shaw or First New York because all there firms are known as places were they give young traders books and let them take risks.
Fast New York? The insider trading gurus? Not sure about a 'top true trading prop shop' if that is what you're trying to imply.
Why is FNYS being mentioned in the same breath as Shaw or Jane Street.
Looking at SEC filings...
JSC has ~$4.5b under management
FNYC has ~$6b
Which place would be better to throw my weight around??
Yes but Jane Street's returns are almost certainly higher, and they have less traders (FNYS has I believe 250, JSC might be half that).
Not saying FNYS is bad, I just don't understand why it is entering the conversation with Shaw and Jane Street.
FNYS is a solid prop firm, especially their international macro and rates desk, but it does not even belong in the same sentence as DE Shaw and JSC. Aside from much lower base salary, you're not going to get the same type of exit opportunities coming out of FNYS.
Firstly, these are two incredibly different firms. The strategies used by the two are pretty different.
DE Shaw is a huge hedge fund with >1k employees. The strategies they use range from high freq to qualitative PE style investments. Simply comparing the analyst program there to JSC does not work. Jane Street is a market maker/arb focused firm. You are always showing markets and taking advantage of micro inefficiencies. They are very small 350 and the trading strategies they use are not capital intensive as much as they are labor intensive. So you can throw the AUM comparison out.
There really is no way to know what is "better out". This is trading not banking. A good trader is a good trader. At the end of the day, even if you are at DE Shaw but have no p/l you will be kicked out and you won't have the opportunities a trader with solid p/l generation at a prop shop will. It is also absolutely stupid to make a decision based on entry comp figures (which are wrong btw). In trading, the absolute most important thing is to get mentors who trust you and will teach you the business. You aren't spreading comps. There are no textbooks with working systems on making bank. You learn from other traders so you need to go where you will fit in and people will like you enough to teach you.
To summarize: Exit opps when it comes to trading matters when you FAIL. If you fail as a trader at DE Shaw, you can probably be employed at some FoF as an analyst because its on your resume. Successful traders never worry about exit opps, they worry about getting bigger risk limits. Trading is meritocratic - everything depends on your skill.
well DE Shaw might hire you if you're a 4 time putnam winner. JSC might hire you if you can play poker. if you can do both, uhhh, flip a coin?
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