So, to make a long story short (I already talked about this in an unrelated thread), I dropped out of college a couple years back and moved to NYC, wound up on the NYMEX floor, worked there for over a year with a guy in the nat gas and crude options pit, then got with a guy that left a top shop in Chicago and am there now. It's a smaller fund but growing. My total experience now is right at 2 years in the business.
Basically, I really don't like my job because it's me and him locked in an office while I'm checking trades most of the time, and other times making markets on options on the screen or quoting OTC, which is cool, but I'd like to be at a top-name fund or even on a bank desk where I can talk to physical side guys, algo guys, and people other than only options market makers (which is where all my experience is).
I'm thinking of finishing up college as a nice break from work, and because coming out of school now I'd have experience + a degree (would take 1.5-2.5 years), really didn't care when I was 18-19...was a totally different person, fucked around even though I had the potential to do very well and go to a great school, I fucked all that up. I didn't start doing well until I woke up around 22-23 and switched from music (I was a piano prodigy and played in competitions but without getting too far into it, music sucks as a career) to computer science but wasn't really happy with career prospects there so I moved.
For funds, banks, etc, these groups go to campuses to recruit, but for trading, which campuses specifically are they going to? I don't think I have the grades to go to an Ivy League, but I could study for and retake the SAT if it's worth a shot. How about Baruch college's statistics and quantitative modeling major? I know the MFE people placed 1st in the International Trading Competition ahead of all the ivy leagues and MIT. I've also looked at possibly going over to the physical side of the business, and was looking at University of Texas and also Rice. Honestly, I'd go to either side (paper or physical) because I feel it'd be relevant to learn how basis is traded, etc, so I really know these markets. I'm thinking Baruch at this point because I'm already here in the city and the barrier to entry is low while still being one of the top financial engineering programs in the country. But is the recruiting far better elsewhere?
P.S. sorry if I don't know much about how these places recruit - I left a shitty state school with almost no companies coming to recruit from there. I'll be reaching out to my network and seeing what other people say but curious to hear from fresh grads/students
UT or A&M will gain you access to. Houston recruiting. A&M has a degree for those entering trading called TRIP , don't know about UT. "The Trading, Risk & Investments Program (TRIP) prepares students in the fields of trading, investments and risk management by combining exceptional class instruction with hands-on internship-based experience. Students will complete two paid internships with two different board member companies and graduate with at least an undergraduate degree (BBA Finance and a Certificate in Trading, Risk & Investments). TRIP is open to Texas A&M undergraduate students who are U.S. citizens or permanent residents. Students apply for acceptance into TRIP during the fall semester, once they have earned between 30–75 credit hours (depending on his/her degree plan)."
Thanks
bump
TRIP at Texas A&M is pretty much the only program in the country guaranteed to get you physical trading experience. Trafigura, Mercuria, BP and a bunch more sponsor it. Guaranteed 2 internships.
http://mays.tamu.edu/trip/
I was in it, working at a physical shop now.
UTexas is good as well, but in my head UT has always done better at energy banking whereas TAMU focuses more on energy trading. Although that's definitely not always the case - plenty of people from both doing both.
But for energy trading there really isn't a close comparison to TAMU. TAMU also has the Titans program, which is run by Britt Harris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Britton_Harris_IV), which puts you in front of people that are the top people in the finance world like Henry Kravis and David Booth, as well as people like General Petraeus... and so many more. You write briefs sponsored by truly the top people in the finance world like I mentioned, and frequently receive feedback from them.
I don't know how TAMU isn't ranked one of the top in the country for finance (well, higher than it already is), but I'm admittedly quite biased. For energy+finance, it's undoubtedly the powerhouse. Maybe UT and Rice following that if you're wanting to do IBD.
Anyways,
http://mays.tamu.edu/trip/current-board/
BP Calpine Energy Cheniere Engergy CIMA Energy EDF Florida Power & Light GDF Suez IAF Advisors Mercuria MunichRe Pacific Summit Energy Phillips66 Tauber Oil Texla Energy Topaz Power Management Total Trafigura Twin Eagle Resource Management Whiteside Energy
MRE Consulting OpenLink PricewaterhouseCooper Structure Group
Avalon Advisors Bridgeway Capital Capstreet Capital EIV Capital KCCI LCI Energy Insight Limestone Value Partners Main Street Capital Corporation Manning Brothers Trading Rock Hill Capital Stellus Capital Teacher's Retirement System of Texas Tudor, Pickering, Holt & Co.
Hey Colonial,
I am interested in TRIP at Texas A&M. Do you recommend that over UT and Rice? Any additional info is appreciated. I would've shot you a PM, but I only have 9 bananas, which precludes me from doing so.
Edit: I just noticed this is for undergrad students. Oh well.
Thanks.
We have TRIP kids and others at my place. TRIP gets you in the door easier, but the track record isn't there in the long run. Maybe it's a small sample size (TRIP, IIRC, is only 3-4 years old). I will say that north of 50% of the traders under 35 are Rice Owls.
You do bring up a good point. The program will really be tested in the next 2-3 years to see if the original group of kids make it to a trading position. Nonetheless, for internship experience and "foot in the door", I think it remains unrivaled.
Anyone who can comment on more of the quant modeling side with Baruch/Columbia, etc?
@IlliniProgrammer
This is an interesting background for a lot of programs. Irony of ironies, you'd be a weird fit as an undergrad at the elite schools but the MFE programs at those same schools would love you. Unfortunately that requires an undergrad STEM degree.
I would study for and take the SATs and just see what happens. If you get a 1400, you're in the running for engineering at UT Austin, UIUC, or most state schools. If you get a 1500, and can ace your SAT II subject tests, an open minded admissions committee at an elite school may see your background and admit you as an Econ or ORFE undergrad.
I think the work experience is a plus, not a minus, especially at the elite Midwestern schools. I think UChicago would be intrigued if you had good test scores and a fantastic rec. I think Cornell might also bite. I am not as sure about Northwestern and Wash U. I know that UIUC doesn't hold age against applicants as long as you're in your 20s and have a good SAT. I suspect most state schools would admit in a similar fashion.
One path is UIUC-> Jump/Citadel/GETCO/Google---> (work a few years). -> MFE ---> quant. Assuming that's what you want to do. You could also easily do M7 from any of those firms.
I don't know if you are in Chicago right now, but if you've been working and paying taxes in the state for a year, you qualify for in-state tuition. UIUC outranks the Ivies in Engineering and is sort of a target for the top tier Chicago trading firms as well as nearly every tech company. With a 3.5 GPA in CS or Comp. E, you'd be an extremely competitive candidate at a Jump, DRW, Chicago Trading Company, or Getco. But the same is probably basically true for a UT Austin, Berkeley, etc.
TLDR: Retake the SATs if you need to and aim for 1400, or whatever is 50 points above the median at the program you're looking at. Line up a few recs from work, and if you have a 1500+, take some subject tests and give Cornell and UChicago a go. Who knows, they might just admit you.
Any opinion on Baruch's statistics and quantitative modeling degree? Also, is going to the Ivies if I can get a job out of somewhere like Baruch really worth the extra dough? Of course we both know this is a connection-driven business and tbh, I'd rather stay here in the city (I'm in New York). I know their MFE program is one of the best. A faculty member told me today that several banks all recruit out of Baruch (but of course the college will say anything so I don't know if that's true or not).
The quant business isn't a connection-driven business. We're engineers and you're either good or you're incompetent. Networking is a little more important in trading and a lot more important in most other bank roles, so it depends on whether you want to stay a trader, become a quant, or take another direction.
Baruch has a pretty good MFE graduate program and I suspect their undergraduate program is on par. If Baruch is your in-state, the undergrad financial engineering program there may be your best option (tho I'd also consider CS at Stonybrook), although your ability to claim you financially support yourself could put California or Illinois in-state too.
I think an Ivy might be helpful vs. Baruch; it would be less helpful vs. a Berkeley or UT Austin. But in your case (1) you have work experience in this field and (2) you wouldn't fit in with typical undergrads (young and naive), so there's less of a cost to a state school and less of a benefit to an Ivy for you. And you can always change your mind two years later and get an MS. However I am probably going to get reamed for suggesting this on WSO.
I think it's worth applying and (1) being able to say you turned down an Ivy and (2) just seeing what kind of financial aid they offer. Ten years ago, I got $0, but these colleges are richer today and may be able to offer a lot of help today if they really want you.
My sense is that the Baruch kids know their stuff and get hired everywhere, but don't always wind up in the front-office- at least not at their first job. My sense is that given your background, your worst case situation probably involves becoming the exception that proves the rule- getting into some options market making role at a bank based purely on your prior experience. But I have met some traders from Baruch and I don't think anyone has anything bad to say about the quality of their financial engineers. So I think it can give you some boost beyond your current work experience. Cornell or NYU would give you more- I just think that this could be one of the exceptions where it may not be worth the $200K extra if you can probably land a job anyways.
Energy Management MBA - which schools? (Originally Posted: 05/04/2013)
I work at the entry level at a physical natural gas trading desk in Houston, Texas. I'm planning on heading to business school in two or three years for Energy Management. I've got a few questions regarding that.
For some background, I have zero interest in going to HYPS/the Ivy League for the prestige factor. All that I care about is maximizing my opportunities and my career network for the energy industry, specifically. I do not care about any other industry; I'm planning on working in oil and gas until the 22nd century if I'm granted that much time.
From what I've learned so far, some good Energy Management programs are Rice, Tulsa, and UT Austin. Are there any others? Are there other schools that I ought to be taking a good, hard look at?
Why as a trader would you want to go to business school? For energy I would consider UT and also Harvard (the school will give you a great network), Wharton and Columbia. Drop Tulsa from that list. The MBA business schools">M7 will all still do an incredible amount to further your career don't count them out quite yet.
Physical trading is a whole different ball game. Even calling it trading is a bit of a misnomer. It's basically a gigantic process of supply chain and logistics management along with understanding the market.
No one on the face of the planet would debate the quality of HBS's network, but seriously, for the energy industry would their network really be better than that of Rice or UT?
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