Trading and Poker

WalkioTrading isn't gambling. Poker is.

Totally incorrect.

Poker is a skill based game with incomplete information. The individuals who make the best decisions and lead their opponents to make worse decisions are the ones who win in the long run.

Lots of traders are also poker players, or have left to become pro poker players (especially at SIG, where the game is very much a part of the firm's culture).

Learning poker at a high level of play is a good way to improve your decision making.

http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/famous-poker-players-traders

stephen cohen was a mean poker player. there's probably some correlation.

Liar's poker.

is a big poker player too. during their training they do a lot of poker lessons as he believes there is a big correlation between decisions made in poker and in the equity derivatives market making business

An understanding of money mangagement, pot odds, probability, expected value should all help a good poker player make a good trader.

Liars Poker is not the same type of poker as you are thinking of.

liars poker is betting on seriel numbers on the face of dollars bills and the like

IT IS NOT PLAYED WITH CARDS...

and I do not think that they require the same skill set. Many good traders are very bad poker players and vice versa.

Not sure how often you play poker but if you truly understand the game and statistics you should be able to acknowledge the correlation between the two skill sets. Successful poker players and traders work with imperfect information to make calculated decisions to manage risk.

I've actually taught myself, and practice online. So far I have been surprisingly successful, which is why I am cynical that trading is this easy to get to grips with...thanks for your reply :)

you have to play in the long run to determine if you are actually successful or not-there is a lot, A TON I should say to poker theory. Start reading and playing.

I play on pokerstars.com

I was told by a Global Head that poker has nothing to do with trading. I suck at it anyway.

That global head probably wasnt a poker player or familar with the correlations. Duh

"Oh - the ladies ever tell you that you look like a fucking optical illusion?"

You can not ignore the overlap in the skill sets. However, I would be cautious about putting too much emphasis on poker or gambling in an interview. If you do mention it talk more about your disciplined approach to playing as opposed to the thrill of putting money on the table.

not only that, there is a game theory aspect to trading when dealing with illiquid markets. like bringing your bets to a poker table with only 6 major players.

its not just the mathematical aspect that is similar. there is also a correlation between the required mental approach.

Patience, conviction and an ability to see the bigger picture all serve a poker player and a trader equally well.

lol, that's awsome. I play holdem and omaha.

oh, yea. Poker is used at quite a few firms. I've been a professional poker player throughout college and it's the main reason how I've been able to interview at the majority of the top prop trading firms. SIG founders were professional poker players back in the day and Jane Street is run by ex SIG people that also use poker. I go to a semi-target school with a meh GPA. The quantitive skills are helpful but the pyschological skills I've gained are much more important to being able to become a profitable trader. It's a good stepping stone to use to help you decide if you can handle the trading lifestyle.

i'm not a trader, but i am addicted to hold'em. you guys play on pokerstars?

Yep. 2-4 through 5-10 nlh.

I play on AbsolutePoker a few times a week (single table sit and gos) and a few times a month at Mohegan/Foxwoods with a few Vegas trips thrown in each year.

Wall Street Oasis private tourney on poker stars... Im feeling it Patrick. I mostly play big Multi Table Tourneys typically 1000+ players. VERE IS MY MONEY!? Mr. Son of a Bitch. Lets play some cards!

I play a ton... mainly live but little on line

I like hold omaha and omaha h/l

I have a game with a bunch of ex bear energy and lehman energy folks

I play almost exclusively no-limit hold'em, although i really want to learn pot-limit omaha. My next Vegas trip will be in June during the world series of poker, can't wait.

Poker is HUGE at SIG. Both bill chen and matt hawrilenko are very successful poker players (they both have won bracelets at the world series) and work at SIG.

I would love to work at a place that was big on poker. the guys at my previous shop were terrible at it

I prefer NL Holdem and Omaha. I occasionally play cash, but I mostly tournaments. I play at PokerStars under this handle. I would certainly be interested in a WSO tourney, that would be fun.

i play 20 bb poker

knocked out on the final three tables of miniftops yesterday ... argh!

Draw and 5 card stud...not really into the hold'em....i think it is because every want to be poker player plays hold'em

5 card stud is a MAN'S game, no place to hide.

Anyone successfully go from pro poker to trading?

I've been doing it for almost 2 years and am thinking I might only want to do another 1.5ish. This will have been my only work since graduating. I do play a lot and take it very seriously (made SNE on PS last year, 1st full year playing).

Suggestions for other things to do on the side? Books to read? Will firms give me a chance? Should I try for unpaid internships?

Nothing is fun unless you are winning/making money.

No, trading isn't poker.

Whatever BTBanker said...

That's true..I guess I like poker so much only because I know I'm good at it and can make money. I don't have the same confidence about trading because I've never tried it. I also really like coding, so the main alternative career I'm considering is tech. The main thing I'm trying to figure out is which one I enjoy better.

Write an algo that you think will yield alpha. Backtest it, put on trades in a paper account etc. to document your findings.

it is like poker, but that depends how you play poker. While all of the prop firms are looking for someone with a math/poker background, all they want is how you handle probability and decision with limited information, not actually how good you are in poker. Also, trading is much more than a 60 hour/week job.

If you haven't tried making poker a full time job, I would caution you on saying you're "good at it." You don't sound like you have any interest in markets whatsoever.

What's with the monkey shit?

Trading has very little to do with poker, barring teaching you logical thought processes, handling risk and avoiding results orientated thinking (right idea wrong outcome - losing AA v KK for example). Otherwise not much beyond that. Supported my way through college with poker.

While poker does not directly relate to trading, I would say that someone who enjoys poker is more likely to enjoy trading than someone who doesn't enjoy trading without a doubt in my mind

Why don't you focus on the fact that you clearly have no interest in the markets. You think when you actually get to click the button you'll fall in love?

You need to be in love with the market's mentality and have a hunger for WHY things are being done, not the act.

Start looking at something else if you don't feel that attraction. It's nearly impossible to feign.

trading is "easier" than poker on the poker skillset but much, much more multi-faceted. especially as a junior guy, your success is largely determined more by your interpersonal skills than any stu ungar bullshit.

of course there is a base level of intelligence and savvy you need - to manage risk, know your pnl, not get picked off, blah blah but beyond that, it's MUCH more about how you manage your sales guys, clients, traders above you, back office, tech. the biggest impediment to your success is conveying the impression to guys around you that you know what you're doing, you have safe hands and you can absolutely handle more risk, no problem.