I'm sure there have been tons of these posts before, but I know that rankings/prestige/relevance change over time. I'm wondering how people would rank firms like IMC, Jane Street, Optiver, DRW, Belvedere, Wolverine, Peak6, Akuna, etc. now. Have certain shops gained/lost prestige over the past few years?
Thanks!
Prestige isn't well defined in this context and comparisons are very hard as most firms don't have transparent financial results. Virtu, Flow Traders, KCG, IMC, Optiver, and XTX are probably the most prominent exceptions. Most firms are suffering a little due to the recent low volatility.
In the HFT space there are increasingly few firms still willing to make the expensive investments to compete in the ultra-low latency space at a global level (aka wireless). Virtu/KCG, Flow Traders, IMC, Optiver, Tower, Jump, HRT, Citadel, DRW/Vigilant and a few others being the remaining large HFT players. Other firms have shifted towards focusing more on mid-frequency. There is obviously a lot of potential money in mid frequency trading but it's much harder to assess the main players due to opaque financial results and wireless networks being hard to conceal.
Thanks a lot - appreciate the response. Is it more transparent within option MM, or is it a similar thing due to lack of transparency?
I don't think it's very transparent but maybe there are ranking for options volume.
I wonder what keeps the bigger firms from next to operating on the smallest time scales, leverage their expertise and stronger financial backing and also start competing in mid-frequency strats? Or is that just a matter of time?
I think they try to some extent but it requires somewhat different expertise especially for the firms that mostly focus on being fast or really detailed knowledge of exchanges. Also while the big HFT firms are well capitalized for HFT they don't have nearly as much as capital as the hedge funds that operate in the mid frequency space.
Bump
I would also like to see what people think. I've heard a lot recently about Akuna doing big things as well as First New York Securities.
What have you heard about Akuna?
I know of both these firms but haven't heard much big news on them recently. Could you shed some light where/how you got this information?
This is a clown question unless you're a partner/owner, especially when it comes to siloed firms.
Every firms have way different junior compensation, senior compensation, brand name, work & life balance, and personal growth. College dudes have to know trading is not a formula like 'GS = pays the most = good for buy side = your parents know'.
Yeah you have to play the long game. If this is a career that interests you, work anywhere you get an offer and learn as much as you can. If you are crushing it and somehow not getting paid fairly, it will be easy to get another gig. There are entire firms built on hiring disgruntled employees away from competitors and paying out more.
Even at a prestigious name-brand firm, if you suck, you'll be counseled out. It might not be aggressive since they don't want to hurt recruiting efforts, but if you never help them make money, over the years your bonus will be low and they'll be hoping that you leave or push you into boring back office roles.
Working for a better firm is the difference between making $200k and $100k base. That seems like a lot of money for a young guy, but it's nothing compared to top traders total comp. So go where you think you will add the most value, not who's doing the best right now.
ok the original question is probably not very well worded but it would be nice if people who actually know a little bit about the business could give their view about some of these companies. I am curious to know how resilient theirs results are given the current low volatility.
Prop Trading and "prestige" don't belong in the same sentence. One has nothing to do with the other. Prop trading is about making money, and nothing else. You don't need relationships, clients, or any of that "white shoe" investment banking stuff.
Prop trading is saying "this will go up now...i'll buy it...then sell it after it goes up...and then move on the the next thing" then go repeat that until you have made 1 billion dollars...or you retire...whichever comes first.
This is of course completely shifting given the fact that firms like Citadel/Virtu pay loads of money for (retail)flow. Virtu even started a relation with Instinet to route their flow via the sub par KCG platform to the exchange. Therefor it is becoming more and more a relationship focus. Additionally given MIFID 2 I can only see this increasing.
All depends on asset class & region and then even within asset classess you can have a differentiation. Ie in the US DRW/Citadel more on rates/hft, where as JS/susq more etfs/options and in Europe Susq is almost non existent (doing a lot but not properly). And so you can continue. Optiver is focused more on Asia, IMC/JS/DRW/Susq US focus more US, Flow Traders more Europe (no options tho).
Rank these prop shops by selectivity (Originally Posted: 03/17/2012)
Getco Spot DRW Jump IMC Teza Jane Street Hudson River Tower Research
SMB T3 Live World Trade Securities LES Trading Hold Brothers Lake Street Trading
T3 is a sweat shop. Stay away.
jane street, getco, fuck the rest.
True for the most part, although teza has hired insanely brilliant people and pay VERY well.
Shouldn't you rank them by profitability?
They are all fine. What is the point of comparing Tower Research and Spot Trading? They are completely different.
Isn't Teza the shop that tried to poach that genius from goldman's HFT desk?
^That was a brilliant move on his part.
they all do slightly different things- and comparing prop shop is futile exercise because no one knows exactly how much they are making. they can do insane volume and be just break even and have a small profitable team that are very selective in hiring new people
Tower is a pretty good firm. No nonsense prop shop
Monkeys trying to rank "eat-what-you-kill"-firms by some arbitrarily criterion. All firms listed are selective, also this is prop trading and not M&A league table prestige bullshit. Jump as well as tower research is going to dump your sorry ass if you aren't printing pnl by your second year.
Rank Proprietary Trading Firms By The Quality of Their Complimentary Breakfasts And Lunches (Originally Posted: 10/21/2014)
Seriously, it's time to settle this once and for all.
Ronin.
Don't you need to actually pay for food at the Ronin cafeteria? I feel like that puts it out of the running immediately.
Seriously...? Just because you pay for your own food. Wow...
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