A college mate (I use this loosely) of mine, whom I lived with in college, just reached out to me about ideas on a new venture he's exploring. I made up some bullshit excuse about lack of downtime even though I am on a sabbatical at the moment. Made me think about successful people and unsuccessful people and the role of lying.
This a bit long winded but hopefully it will capture my frustration! @()*@)78*&£iuyewp7!!!
Some background:
His position right now - good job, good pay, great lifestyle.
Studied the same course. He coasted with average grades while I tirelessly worked my ass off.
Let's call him Fred.
Fred's personality was grinding in the most painful way possible, to the point I couldn't really spend much time around him..."yes Mr Smoothspin, you did choose to live with him after all - dickweed."...I know, I know but the guy is genuinely nice. The kind of person who has your back when you get into that drunken fight with a freshman who thinks he can hold his 'bud light' liquor while you do the Irish around him with a bottle of whiskey and still stand at the end to insult his non-existent sister, knowing all along the fight was your fault.
It hit me very early on that Fred had a knack of over exaggerating everything. Literally. That night where you hooked up with one girl, he definitely hooked up with 11, including triplets, according to his infallible memory and general awesomeness in life. Your CV before junior year had 2/3 easter internships while he had 23 - albeit Mummy was a top city executive. I didn't pay much attention to him in the work aspect of his life because I live by a simple motto of "I'm doing me" or YOLO depending on how drunk and impartial I am to Drake.
Yet I couldn't help but cringe at the fact that a one week placement at a F500 would become one month. A good recommendation from a manger would be magnified to "he LOVED me. Told me I could run the firm upon graduation." Yes Fred, stick a fucking cork in it...we get it. Only problem was, I had no real way of calling him out on it. I could barely get myself in the door at a coffee shop let alone call Mr MD and ask about Fred's British Empire-esque conquers in the corporate world.
In school work, it was much the same. He got a 3.3 equivalent in his first year even though he once drunkenly told me his breakdown and mathematically, you could squeeze a 3.3 out of it if a full figured Rosie O'donnell sat on it...twice. Of course, I was also sorority girl wasted that night and couldn't remember what kind of vermin meat I ordered at the local takeaway after the night had ended. Again no proof to call him out. Then one day, we got our assignments back and my eyes managed to peak a glance at his. I didn't do too well.
Quant finance was as nice to me as girls were when I was fat in primary school. He did even worse but upon getting home, seeing him take the rest of the week off after printing a presentation, he told me his mark was 72 and opposed to 60 and that my two weeks of writing it were futile compared to his two days...Fred sits back and orders pizza. I smirk, give him the (now) customary "well done" and grind my teeth like I just snorted ketamin.
From experience, I feel liars lie to make themselves feel good or make other's feel bad. Fred was the worst kind. He lied to make others feel bad and that subsequently made him feel really good. Again, I was more mature than this and put it down to innocuous banter. That was until the day I got a call with my SA offer after countless months of applying and preparing. He walks into my room and his congratulations is swiftly followed by a "how much they paying you?" - I give my figure (lets say 1000 p/week) and he responds with "ohhh nice...yea, that's good. The thing I'm doing will pay 1400 a week...so im happy. May be we can grab drinks together"....yes Rumple, maybe you can waterboard him with vodka. This was of course one of the many internships mother had hooked him up with, well, one of the many he told me could have gotten.
This behaviour hasn't changed but he's done well for himself. Never really had to hustle but I don't knock that. My lack of contact or opportunities is something I've never lamented. Instead, I just pull my socks up, chisel and work my way to better opportunities. In all fairness, his venture sounds compelling. I wouldn't think twice about not helping had he been like my other friend, Jacob, who by all honest measures is straight to the bone except his mental capacity is limited to a banana peel. I just know down the line, this might catch up to him OR he could just continue to coast and lie...then proceed to coast past me in his new 911 while I struggle to swipe my card on the subway...riding shotgun with him the pretty brunette from the West coast.
I was wondering if fellow monkeys have either come across a Fred (at college or work or in life in general) OR whether a lie or two has done them/you some good in life?
Doesn't this level of compulsive lying and a false sense of achievement weigh on you before you go to sleep or does it become second nature?
I'm gonna bookmark this and read it later...
I was Fred. In some ways, I still am Fred. For me, I became cognizant of the fact and made an effort to curb the behavior at a moment where I felt my life was falling apart. After reflecting on why things were unraveling for me, it became clear that the lying, embellishment, and bull shit had affected me in a very negative way: I began to believe my own bull shit. I was failing to live, busy living the lies I cooked up for other people to believe.
Your friend may never discover his own version of this "bull shit." But I can guarantee that it does affect him. Just stay away and pay no mind to his antics if you have to put up with it.
I know what you mean. The lying to cover up lies is what I found amusing because I'd know he lying through his teeth but the sheer conviction of the man made me chuckle and admire him...in some fucked up way. I kept saying to myself "bro, I don't give a fuck what you got it where you worked. I'm not friends with you because of that."
I genuinely hope this guy gets to your level of realisation. A big frustration is if I'm out, and we run in the same social circles (mamma I made it), I tend to hear these extravagant stories of Fred, knowing it's all bullshit but I don't feel compelled to out him. It's not my thing. At the same time, I can't but slightly hope this kid fucks up in a terrible way. Am I bad person or an emotional drunk. Who knows?
I've got a Fred, met him a couple years ago and it's taken some time to figure out the best way to deal with our friendship. For the most part, I ignore his bullshit and just go along with the stories. I don't even bother trying to top him b/c it just ends in a dick measuring fight. I do keep in contact, though, because he's a fun guy and he gives you this weird since of hope/glamour of how awesome things could actually get if you work hard.
I've become used to the whole "I'm better at you than this and that and that too." A lot of shits and giggles. If anything, I don't mind running into him here and there to see how his grand plans have flopped or how the fault was someone else's.
/
If I'm bored, I'll go to a bar and pretend to be someone else and troll people. It's fun. Try it. People buy you drinks if they like your stories about being a lumberjack or an eagle trainer.
I know one day I'm going to go to a bar, tell a group of girls I'm a doctor...because you know, they love caring men and shit. Next to me, the overweight dude downing jaegerbombs at light speed is going to collapse with a heart attack, only for his annoying girl to scream "SOMEONE GET A DOCTOR". Yep...
Then you say you're also a eugenict.
I think George Costanza has got you beat there.......a proclaimed marine biologist who happens across a beached whale.
I once went on a spontaneous road trip with a buddy in high school and we convinced a small town shop owner we were NY Times reporters. They rolled out the red carpet in food/drinks and even set up a date with their local celebrity, international arm wrestling champion Andy Fuller. Their phone book was the size of CD booklet lol
welcome to the thought process of all the bulbasaurs in the world - need a charmander or torchic to put them in their place
they can vine whip me all they want for "amazing" damage, but one ember and I have myself some burnt asparagus to munch on
I'm pretty sure Abra would go a decent job too, no?
Had a friend like this in school as well. Wouldn't worry about it, as most people realize that they are pathological liars, even if they don't directly say so.
Test thing reminded me of him; he was out of class and I saw his test back on the table. When I asked what it said he got online (teachers post them too), he said he got like 86 when he actually had somewhere in low 70s. I told him he was wrong and that I saw his real test in the room; he flipped and kept blaming the teacher for getting it wrong and that he must've gotten the 86. So funny to watch him squirm.
In the end though, most of us just felt bad for him. He lied about everything to the point where it was like "what's even the point of lying about that? it isn't even impressive or relevant". Pretty sure he has security/mental issues though.
There's nothing better than trolling a bullshitter at the bar. I ran into a guy a couple weekends ago who claimed he was related to one of the big families in the area. Just so happens that I am really good friends with this family and I knew he was full of shit. So I started playing along with this guy, in front of all of the girls he started to collect around him. I help him build up his own bullshit to levels of insanity that were just waiting to collapse. Then I started throwing out curve ball questions that only people from the family would know. Lets just say the mountain collapsed and he suddenly had to go meet some friends. It was my crowning achievement of the night. Even more so than getting the number of the girl he was trying to hook up with.
That is brilliant.
So what you're saying heister is that...I should call him out AND THEN sleep with his girlfriend?
Lying has always struck a chord with me. This quote comes to mind: You're not that smart and I'm not that stupid.
It's not the amorality that bothers me, it's that they think that we're all stupid enough to believe them. It's also why I hate when people are late-- it implies that they think their time is more important than your time.
I remember being told once "Bro, fuck applying for internships...I can hook you up at FTSE100 firm X. COO's son is a good friend of mine...went to the same boarding school."
I went to Fred's facebook, looked for John (COO's son) and cross referenced his surname with the FTSE firm and the result returned him as a director in human resources. Every time I heard about John and his COO father, I just smile. I mean if you told me director in the first place, I would have been impressed regardless.
iHave met approx 4 in my life. iCannot stand them. Acually have alot to say on this subject, however I'm at work so ill have to keep this short....
Sorry, have to give one example....one of the kids (IMO) tells blatant lies, easily seen thru....he once said he was drafted in the 1st round by the yanks, 3rd round by the red sox, and 8th or 9th round, cant remember which by the cubs or something.
Oh yea he also played against Lebron James in High school and crossed him up (yea fucking right)
Having grown up in Lebron James's area I have to deal with a LOT of fake stories about him. He comes/came to a lot of local events so "he said hi and talked to me for two minutes" become "yeah he'll call me up after games."
Kid that I knew when I was ~13 comes to mind as one of the more notable compulsive liars I've met...claimed he had a butler, a PS2 and xbox (or whatever the latest iterations were then) in every room, and his dad was having a yugi-oh battle zone or whatever next to their house. Funny thing was he invited me and some others to his house for his birthday, and when we asked about the missing gaming consoles, lack of a butler and definite lack of anything yugi-oh, he said it was all in his other house.
I can understand this sort of thing when you're young but I guess you could argue that it becomes ingrained in you as you grow up.
I guess this leads to a wider debate on parenting, morals, ethics and so on. For example, I have a friend who doesn't lie because at a very young age, his mother told him "Jesus gets upset". Clearly he doesn't think about Jesus now when faced with the option of lying or not but the whole lying thing is somewhat alien to him as an adult. It's still a source of jokes when he comes out with something questionable and my buddy will respond with "He's not lying remember...or Jesus will be upset!"
Fair enough - would be interesting to hear the degrees to which non-compulsive liars are comfortable with the practice. I for one, as an example (and I assume like most people) have zero qualms about true white lies to people I am not close with, but won't even tell white lies (at all) to close friends/family/significant other.
The irony of this is that compulsive liars make the best CEOs, political leaders, and start ups founders. These people have to be able to delude themselves that they are actually capable enough to be better at their job than everyone else. You have to be a compulsive liar to think that you are the only one capable of doing what you do.
Hit the nail on the head hence the original title of this topic was Compulsive Lying - effect in the long term on success.
I didn't want to hint at the idea that successful people are good liars as it's a bit generic to throw around on a forum packed with successful people but there definitely is a link in a small select few.
I think it's more about spinning stories of hope and inspiration to those who lack it like most politicians rather than a self pep-talk. Reminds me of a funny quote: Poor People have been voting for Democrats for the last 50 years, and they are still poor.
Lying like your buddy Fred is almost always going to be detrimental. People hate compulsive liars.
However, Lying can be really positive if you're good and it and you don't over-use it (or people will find out). In this scenario, it would clearly have a positive long term impact on you.
knew a guy in high school like this that was the worst pathological liar and every time someone wouldnt call him out, the lies just got more and more ridiculous. eventually, I just laughed, looked him straight in the eye in front of everyone and said "You are so full of shit...is anything the comes out of your mouth the truth?" ...he froze, since he had never really been called out - I proceeded to rattle of the 4-5 most ridiculous lies he had said in the previous few weeks and he just started laughing nervously.
Good part about that is he stopped trying to lie to me and I didn't have to hang out with him as much.
Like most things in life, the great book of Seinfeld has satirized it:
//www.youtube.com/embed/d-MtW7hbzWk
I know a... Frederica... unfortunately for me, I don't get the option of spending time with her as she is my fiance's aunt so it's forced.
My fiance's dad called her out on it one night, not in a subtle way either. In a straight up... You're a huge fucking liar and everything that comes out of your mouth is irrelevant to anything you've ever done in your life type of way.
Needless to say, she cried a lot because he was so mean and is ridiculous for thinking that she is a liar.
It's kind of funny, because my fiance has another aunt... who is the COO of a huge global company, has owned and sold multiple companies, fluent in multiple languages, multiple degrees, makes a few million a year and is extremely nice and modest and doesn't flaunt wealth but promotes hard work... and yet... Frederica still has to come up with a lie to try and one up her... even though nobody is making a comparison except her.
Fake it 'till you make it.
F*ck the haters.
Didn't know you could get to WSO through a high school firewall.
Long post, but anyone who has a Fred in their life should read this:
People like Fred are toxic and you do not want them in your life. Your increasingly visceral reactions are hinting at your growing awareness, but you haven't quite had the "aha!" moment yet. You defend him despite his many glaring flaws. Perhaps I am being ignorant trying to make a pointed claim about a guy I have never met in my life, but if he is anything like I think he is, you need to cut him out.
I want to start by sharing a story about an actual friend I have, whom we will call "Ned." Ned, when we were younger, was a pathological liar. By this, I mean when we were playing Pokemon Red/Blue, he would talk about having caught over 500 Pokemon, and actually having seen one in real life. He bragged about skateboarding to Egypt one day in kindergarten...in the street. He explained how he got an "S" in our math class, which was supposedly even higher than an "A+" and that he couldn't wait until he was admitted on a full ride to his dream university...despite being in middle school.
Ned would get this glare in his eyes, and really excitedly share this information. Ned was not trying to one-up me by any means, and he was not insane (he was a little out there though). It was his genuine excitement that would lead him to say wild things like this.
As Ned grew older he made less and less wild claims like this; he would still boost a few points on assignments here and there and pretend he knew about cultural references when he did not, but it was absolutely good-natured and I attribute it to a mixture of absent-mindedness and the intellectual equivalent of adding an extra inch or so to your dick when asked; not to one-up, not to show off, but just naturally.
Your Fred does not sound like my Ned. Ned is actually a nice but misguided, loopy guy. Your Fred sounds like my Fred.
When I met my Fred at the beginning of last year (lived in close proximity to each other), we "hit it off" immediately. I could get around the fact that he bragged about how many blowjobs he had or that his IQ was in the high 180s...or that he could seduce small-time politicians or that he was friends with NFL players. After all, he was so nice to me and because of how much attention I gave him, I could see the sensitive side, when he would practically cry to me wondering why some of our friends were being mean to him.
I knew why. It's because they saw through his bullshit. I did too. But I didn't realize the extent to which he had been bullshitting me. I knew about most of the lies. What I did not realize, that my friends did, is that this Fred did not truly care about me whatsoever. He cared about me only insofar as I was a source of affirmation to him and a guy who had a lot going for him and who people liked.
I used to think he was loyal, and indeed he did make some small "sacrifices" in some ways, that were more so like strategic ploys. If I needed a very tiny favor, he would help me out immediately no questions asked...only to ask me for a much larger one in the future. He would be so kind in his words towards me, lifting me up by telling me how intelligent I was or how successful I was going to be. I mistook this as loyalty and friendship. It was only apparent later that most of his bullshit was to secure me as a source of his narcissistic supply.
It was not until the beginning of THIS year that we reached a boiling point. I could not handle his exaggerations and idiocy for much longer, because as his delusions grew, they became more and more offensive to the point he was no longer pretending that he legitimately thought he was better than me in all regards. I had fed him to the point that he believed in his superiority over me.
The lie that set it off was simple. He had claimed he was out partying with my best friend the Tuesday night prior, hooking up with lots of hot girls. I knew for a fact that I and my friend were working on a trading algorithm through the night. So I just casually said, "Actually, Fred, you are full of shit and I was working with him last night." He proceeded to claim that my friend and him were inseparable, and that he would have easily chosen to hung out with Fred over me, hence I was a liar. Given that my friend hated Fred, I knew this to be untrue and called him out again. By this point he started angrily asking "You think you're better than me now, huh? Okay bitch" and then ran off to literally cry to another one of my friends.
The next night I saw him, we got in another argument over I forget what, to the point that we actually had to be restrained from fighting. Afterwards, he smiled and "apologized" but I knew things were now different and I did not believe him. I did not call him out, but I resolved to spend as little time with him as possible. I was always courteous to him when I saw him, and I would not talk behind his back, but I still tried to avoid him whenever possible.
And guess what happened? Only by not talking to him, he has over the course of the past year gone from smiling and saying "What's up" to pretending he doesn't see me, to leaving parties whenever he sees me, to making lame threats and talking behind my back to try to turn friends against me (only turning them ever more decidedly against him).
Only over the past few months have I realized what my friends had realized long ago. He was not my friend, and he never was. He only saw me as someone that everyone else liked, and who he wanted to mirror and be like. And over time, as I pretended to believe his lies and basically acted as a free therapist, he began to believe his own delusions to the point that it made him even more unbearable than before.
He is out of my life now, and I am much better for it. I see this new Fred trying to make new connections with new people. I see most of them immediately ruling him out of their lives, seeing through his bullshit as immediately as my friends did.
And then I see this one guy out of the group who stands out. He reminds me a lot of me. He reminds me a lot of you. And he's giving this Fred a chance, even though I know how badly it will end. He will eventually come out of the situation much wiser, a little more jaded, but only after wasting a huge chunk of time. Or maybe he will never leave this trap, and continue to let this Fred drain his resources, shouldering all of his lies and delusion simply to be a "good friend" to Fred, who is such a nice guy in return. I don't know. I guess I'll have to see.
So where do I see Fred going? He claims he wants to go into politics. And this is one claim that I do believe. Despite all of the people and events in his life he made up, I do know for a fact that his family is wealthy and connected. And I know that he knows how to make beautiful first impressions. And that's why I think he will succeed -- at least for a while -- in politics. He will be dealing with people who don't fundamentally care about him, but care about what he'll achieve for them. And those who he will continue to interface with, will be too afraid -- just like I was, and just like you appear to be -- to call him out, because they don't want to harm their own lives.
I'll leave the political games to him. I have enough of that in my own life. He is one political enemy I have decided to make, because his "friendship" was somehow so much more draining. You can make your own decision, whether you want to get in a serious confrontation with your Fred or slowly cut him out of his life, or something in between.
But if you continue to shoulder his delusional burdens, I hope he remembers to pick up a "Thank you" card from Hallmark. I hope he sends it to you and includes a box of chocolates. It's the least he can do for you, for letting him live a better life at your own expense.
Maybe I'm off the mark. Maybe I'm a little ridiculous. But if this sounds like your Fred, just take my advice, Smooth: Run, don't walk.
Just my two cents, and hope it's some food for thought.
I appreciate well written posts +1
You raise a few good points.
My Fred has never had a problem with friends. I think for the most part, 90% of people believe him for the lies purely because of the level of wealth this guy has behind me. I was told about this 40ft boat once.....anchored somewhere near Nice yet I've never ever seen this boat in a vacation picture nor have his parents ever spoken of it. Yet to other friend's, its always "Fred might take his boat up" and of course he never will because something spectacular will happen that prevents him.
Me and Fred hit it off immediately too but it I didn't see the warning signs. It started off very competitive. Everything I did would impress him insofar that it was better than what normal people would do but not Fred, who clearly excelled at that beyond human limits. I thought this was a normal way to impress new friends but it soon got old because the friendship had already been established. I didn't need impressing in the first place but certainly not now. If you tell me you ate one banana a day, I'd be impressed at because at least you are attempting something healthy. If you lie and tell me you saw off 8 bananas, 12 apples and 6 pineapples because you're healthier than me...the impression is just chafing.
Holy crap. I just kept nodding as I read through this post. Experienced this to a tee!
if hes a real friend, you should help him through his insecurities... you shouldn't just dump a friend just beause he has issues, as friends youre supposed look out for each other.
People that always lie are easier to deal with since you can just ignore everything they say. It's the selective liars you have to worry about.
Had a friend since high school that lies about everything... even shits that doesn't make him look good. My other friends and I have called him out multiple times on it. He eventually broke down and told us that he can't control it and has no idea why he has to lie about everything. I guess it's a mental condition.
Kind of strange to read this thread, in my group of friends from school there was someone who was very similar to this. Almost exactly what you describe.
His family is fairly wealthy, and his parents are well-connected (former presidents, CEOs, etc). You wouldn't think there was anything this guy would have to lie about in order to make himself seem better. In his position in life, you'd think that he'd be happy enough to just tell us the truth because it's about 10x more impressive than what most of our lives are like. But you'd be wrong.
The thing we all noticed the most about him is that he would come to each of us and pretend to be best friends with us, and say negative things about one or more of the other people in the group. None of us knew he was doing it until we all kind of told each other. He wasn't trustworthy at all, although I will say he never stabbed me in the back and mostly had my back in most situations.
His biggest skill was definitely making you feel like you were his best friend, saying things like "Oh yeah we'll do XXX this weekend" or "Tomorrow we're going to go over to XXX and do XXX"...and you'd make plans, and then he'd call you at the last minute to say something had come up. But he'd always apologize and promise to make up for it. He did this to most people, and had a reputation for basically being someone you couldn't rely on for anything.
One of the things that really helped expose him was the fact that he was in a fraternity on campus, one I almost joined. Part of the reason I didn't is because I didn't want to deal with his bullshit. He played the politics game very well, I heard many stories about what he would do to get ahead or sway opinion of a person in the direction he wanted. Eventually it became clear that he was basically out for himself and would do anything, say anything to get ahead or make people think he was more successful than he was.
Lots of the stuff people have said so far occurred with him too - lying about test scores, lying about hooking up with/having sex with girls, lying about things he bought or experiences he had. He would even lie about things that didn't even matter...at least things you wouldn't think would matter. But the best part was that he was so good at it, it was almost interesting to watch. He is definitely one of the best liars I have ever met. He'd be a perfect politician.
We don't really have much contact now, because we've all kind of let him know we don't appreciate his bullshit. He's not a bad guy deep down, I don't think. But he is a compulsive liar and definitely puts his desires over anyone else's. He will not hesitate to take someone down if it means he'll get ahead. I think we've all done things in that vein but he makes a career out of it. I can't really relate to that, because in my mind if you're really good enough, eventually it will get noticed.
Reading through, it's funny how many of these traits seem to be shared between all of them.
I recently ran into a "Fred". This guy made up absolutely ludicrous lies for example he claimed once to have had 72 shots over the course of an evening, clearly not true. He then proceeded to say how he slept with a number of women most of whom I was actually very close friends with and knew for a fact would never sleep with this guy even if he was the last man on earth. It was disturbing to say the least especially when one confided in me when we were discussing this individual that he had said he had slept with her and she was absolutely aghast. They're assholes and best avoided.
I have a Fred, ironically mine's actually called Fred, unfortunately every group of friends has one! Long time reader but this post is so accurate I had to finally make my first comment!
Glad it resonated with you.
Guys I have a Fred at work, a part of a graduate program I'm in. Its driving me up the wall. The sad thing is I don't think many people see through it. Half the other graduates, with heads so hollow that if they got shot there the resulting void would whistle when they ran, are his bitches. The other half just ignore him. I have crushed him in a battle of wits once and as a result he avoids me now (I consider this to be one of my life achievements).
But, my peace of mind isn't as important as my graduate placement. I do think it's doing him good with the HR (who are running this particular game). Despite the fact that I know this, I just can't do it myself, I hate people like that. In the long run, I do think that it gets an individual far if its backed up with decent intellectual ability, or if the surrounding is contaminated by fuck-wits. If not, larger sharks will call that person out sooner or later and will bugger the asshole in public.
The thing about compulsive liars is that they're usually very sociable people. They always have topics to bring up, and can talk about anything like they've lived it. Good to have on team for networking, if they can manage to tone down the obvious bullshitting.
Most are just compulsive liars, and just that. Other times you meet narcissists, or in worse case sociopaths or psychopaths (Or whatever the clinical name is. Anti-social personality disorders?), all fond of lying through their nose. At least with the run-of-the-mill bullshitters and one-uppers you can relax and know that it's just BS. Calling them out on it may or may not ruin the friendship, I know a couple like that, and they just brush it off when being called out. Calling out actual sociopaths etc. will make you an enemy for life...they never, ever forget. And there are few things they hate more than a bruised ego.
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