Seeing a lot of threads about how unless you give up your career and ambition to mother children, your kids will end up depressed with issues. It's a long time out, but seeing the sentiment of "women can't focus on work after having kids" stresses me out.
Would love to hear examples of mothers who were able to make both a good/high-paying career, and motherhood+family life work.
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This is great! Thanks for sharing!
Whether male or female, the reality is that you're not going to have a ton of free time to spend with your kids if you work a demanding job. 80+ hours is 80+ hours at the end of the day. If someone wants to spend a lot of time with their kids, then transitioning into something less demanding or a group with lighter hours is probably the way to go.
Thank you for the comment, but I created this thread explicitly to avoid this type of reaction. I understand where you're coming from, and while I agree you can't have a lot of both, I'm looking to find people who managed being an, say an MD, and also be there for their kids.
I'm not saying I have to be 100% high powered all the time, or 100% all my time is with my kids - there have to be examples of women who do both. That's what I'm looking for.
I have multiple woman on my management teams @ portfolio companies and their husbands are basically stay at home or work 30 - 40 hours a week. That's how they make it work. Like I said, 80+ hours is 80+ hours. There's no way around it. You will miss critical events, etc... but it doesn't mean your kids will have issues.
Let's do as Charlie Munger says and invert:
Do you know any men who have managed to build the kind of life you're looking for?
You cannot be 100% in a high demanding career and 100% with your kids AND want a husband that is 100% in his own (preferably even better) career so that you don't feel like dating down. The last point is usually the problem, most women haven't evolved much in their partner selection process.
1 of the three will have to get dropped - Leave kids to nannies - dial down a bit on the career, and yes that means that workaholic other director that doesn't care will get promoted before you unless you vastly outshine him/her, or work to setup your own business etc... - Get a supportive husband who has a less demanding job. Almost all the top female MDs we have on the floor have husbands in less demanding jobs.
The day only has 24hours and that problem can't be solved. This is so obvious to men who historically have seen their kids less to provide for their family and married more supportive wives yet we still get these sort of topics from confused women.
Might be wishful thinking but I think some of that sentiment might be changing after COVID. We’ve all proven that we can work effectively and efficiently from home for extended periods of time. Of course taking care of children is time consuming, but there are so many moms out there who are working remotely while raising kids, and at least at my firm, productivity is as high as ever. After COVID, I think it’ll be difficult to argue that mothers can’t do both.
This is great! I'm sure there could be some mix of work from home to at least let you be around your kids. Excited to see this potentially play out in the coming years.
For the hundredth time, a career and motherhood are not mutually exclusive. Plus, someone who’s built a career can always scale back, either temporarily or for the long run, while someone with only a job can’t really move up once kids are in the picture. It’s not a matter of 80+ hours and run down versus someone at your beck and call being supportive and nurturing and productive (lol). Someone who couldn’t spend her time to effectively develop herself as a human being who contributes to society will not suddenly stop watching retarded YouTube videos or start reading books
Do you really think that someone who had the mind, discipline and drive to develop her career to the level that a lot of dudes can’t even reach (gasp) would be reckless about her decision to have kids and would be a fucking neglectful monster once she had them?
Or that someone who coasted by in life on the bare minimum of socially acceptable effort to play dress up as a functioning adult who needs someone else to figure out money and her future would somehow be adept at raising accountable and responsible kids? Work ethic is highly heritable, you know, and a kid who grows up watching one parental figure live off of another will be less motivated to make something of themselves
I’d rather have the minds and habits of my future kids shaped by a Michelle Obama or Amal Clooney type than a chill loser with a lot of free time, thanks
Very important to have good, involved parents. Having 2 highly-educated, hard-working parents goes a long way.
This is not 1955. Women can have a good career and have a successful family life as well. I have two kids and my wife is an attorney. She recognized that working for someone else might not be an optimal situation for her, very early in her career. She was never on the corporate law path where you work long hours and make a lot of money. Like many attorneys, she set up her own practice and sets her own hours. She also works from home part of the time which is helpful when you have a family. I am sure she has no regrets about her career path.
In finance, it is probably a lot more difficult to go out on your own and raise a family. It takes a lot more effort to set a broker dealer or an investment advisory firm than to start up a law firm. For these reasons, lots of women seek law careers and a much smaller percentage go into financial careers. In finance, some employers value face time and therefore it can be a challenging situation if you want to raise a family. It can be done in finance but it is more difficult. With that said, as we progress as a society, employers are becoming more open to people working home and now with the pandemic, working from home is probably going to become more common.
The threads you're referring to are written by men who can't even fathom the idea of compromising on their careers to help make some of the things they want (kids, family life, a happy partner!) a reality.
"Women can't focus on work after having kids?" I guarantee the men saying this are the same men who refuse to shoulder any of the work of having children. Look up some of the surveys that have been done during COVID where both parents are working from home and (in heterosexual relationships) the wife ends up doing the vast majority of housework and childcare though the husband thinks he's doing more than his fair share.
Realistically, both partners working in even moderately demanding careers means you'll have to hire help or have grandparents close-by. I also hope that post-COVID, flexible working arrangements will be more acceptable.
Margaret Thatcher.
In her own words, she owes nothing to feminism. You are welcome.
This needs to be posted anyway: https://www.nber.org/papers/w14969
The Paradox of Declining Female Happiness
By many objective measures the lives of women in the United States have improved over the past 35 years, yet we show that measures of subjective well-being indicate that women's happiness has declined both absolutely and relative to men. The paradox of women's declining relative well-being is found across various datasets, measures of subjective well-being, and is pervasive across demographic groups and industrialized countries. Relative declines in female happiness have eroded a gender gap in happiness in which women in the 1970s typically reported higher subjective well-being than did men. These declines have continued and a new gender gap is emerging -- one with higher subjective well-being for men.
The most important response in this thread. To truly make it to the top in just about any field law, finance etc. you have to be a psychopath, and men are much more willing to do this than women. Unless you're truly part of the 1% of women who can achieve this and still be happy, it's something to think about.
Interesting. Does the study have hypotheses why ?
I can talk about my mom, she’s a huge inspiration to my life. My dad worked a lot throughout my childhood and my mom stopped working to raise myself and my two sisters. Stopped working meaning no longer a W-2 employee, but damn she worked hard.
I’ve mentioned before, my parents were completely poor in the beginning. They had pretty rough backgrounds. My mom would take college classes around our school schedule when we entered elementary school. 6 years later she earned her BS degree. Keep in mind, that’s while raising 3 (admittedly not always the best behaved) kids with sports, after school activities, and making time to teach us ahead of the curve. My mom made sure we knew Math and English ahead of the course schedules.
When I hit middle school my mom returned to full time work. We were given more autonomy and expected to grow up more. I can’t imagine studying for finals with 3 kids crying about some bike being broken or something like that. Props to my mom.
many examples out there. everyone needs help to succeed. try helping others. it is rewarding.
I am not a woman nor do I have anything to add to this thread.
First I want to echo what m_1 said. When you work 80+ hours a week, you are going to be making a ton of sacrifices whether male or female.
That said, there are plenty of careers for smart and ambitious people that do not have to put in 80 hours a week in the long run. Even in finance. Less prestige/less comp but certainly careers that can be fulfilling.
It can absolutely work. I know some friends who are some of the friendliest, most hardworking people I have met and they grew up in a single mom household, often times watching their family split. Yes, single mom. Mom works full time to provide for the family. There are loop holes for child support and more often than not that doesn't come through. The key thing about these mothers is that I always noticed when they did spend time with their kids, they really showed that they cared. At the end of the day kids can see if you really appreciate their existence, or just had them to pass on the family name. And I can think of many middle class examples where both parents work. Maybe the kid cried when their parents couldn't attend the kindergarten play. But as these kids got older, they definitely understood. Obviously not everyone turns out that way. But I can think of families where a parent stayed at home and the kids turned out less than ideal as well.
If I were to guess, you probably want men and women to make the same amount of money, but also want your future husband to make more money than you. Since you make a lot, this means your spouse will have to work 80 hours a week too probably. Because this future team has a lot of tasks, but only a finite amount of time this of course is difficult. There's probably at least a few solutions that I think work:
(A) Find your time stretched thin, which leaves you vulnerable to putting off important but not time sensitive things (like the wellbeing of your kids). Maybe consider having only 1 child or a dog instead.
(B) Find a spouse that works less than you do or becomes a stay at home dad. I personally think this is the most undervalued solution. There are a lot of women who have made this work that I know. This works for obvious reasons.
(C) Become insanely efficient. I am sure this is what some people do. In reality though I think they are liars.
(D) Outsource child rearing to someone else. Both of my parents worked 70 hours a week when I was younger. That said, my grandparents took care of me during most of my childhood. The grandparents being there made it work despite that neither spoke English.
(E) Work less hours and be ok with that.
Please for your own sake and that of your future spouse stop thinking there are no tradeoffs here. It's a bogus idea.
For a while I've had a hobby that I meet with a group to do every so often. Everyone else in the group is much older than I am- retired or nearing retirement. Kind of weird but whatever. One thing I've seen from spending a bunch of time around older people is that their happiness (or unhappiness) is heavily influenced by their kids and grandkids (or lack thereof). As people get older, they stop caring as much about their careers and status.
Such a good post. There are always trade offs in life.
"If I were to guess, you probably want men and women to make the same amount of money, but also want your future husband to make more money than you"
This is literally the problem with pretty much all these confused feminists.
I think it is not about how much time you have with your kids but how useful are you and understanding during this time. My mom is a stay at home. My dad works alot but he always made time for us. Neither of them never understood me. I don’t tell them about 90% of my life. Other friends whose parents have more demanding jobs, are closer to them and know everything about them.
also, you can keep your career but move to a firm with more work life balance culture. its not all black and white
I have worked with 3-4 senior women in investment banking (VP to MD to head of group/regions). While I don’t have a detailed view into their habits, I have noticed a few things which helped them make it work: - They all consistently had a time, usually early/mid evening, during which they would be unreachable. This is when they’d pick up kids, go home, have dinner, put kids to bed, etc. This was generally never an issue and allowed them to take care of more important things. - They were usually online in the nights, from home - Daycare and nannies - Effort to have quiet weekends. Some of them tried hard to limit weekend work so they could have more time with family and juniors could hopefully get some rest as well
This generally has worked for them (so far as I have seen) and they have always been available on email, for conference calls, etc. That being said, it must be incredibly difficult, something I would not personally want to go through. One of them told me that they were on an important conference call one evening when their newborn wouldn’t stop crying, their husband wasn’t home, and they just didn’t know what to do. I felt for them in that situation, having a few kids myself.
There’s no easy answer to this one and I hope more women in the industry can figure out how to balance given that both raising kids and having a successful, ennobling career can bring much meaning to life.
TL;DR: There is hope. Don’t let junior finance life get you down.
My background: currently, a mid-level banker at busy and successful shop. Today, I’m married with a kid. Wife was a former banker (that's how we met).
This question used to scare the crap out of me too when I was a junior banker. Before banking, I always knew I wanted to be a father: I thought I’d be a good one. Coming out of school, I was ambitious: specifically, because I wanted to be able to provide a good life for my family (whoever that would end up being). I heard banking was a good place for someone young and ambitious to grind and come out more experienced and well compensated then most entry level positions. 100+ hours? I’m single… Who cares.
But a couple years in, I started to panic. I was in a high COL city (NYC – so the money wasn’t relatively as good as I had hoped) and the hours were not meaningfully improving. No matter what “level” I got to, I always felt like I was responsible for everything. When I met my wife, we were both senior associates about to be promoted to VPs. Things started getting serious, so we had “the talk”: we asked each other if we wanted kids. I knew I had always wanted them, but suddenly it seemed impossible. This was a terrible wake up call for me and made me seriously reconsider: what the hell am I doing this for.
Fast forward a bit, my wife is no longer a banker, but she holds a senior finance role in a large corporation (working almost banking hours). I’m still in banking, doing well with my wife’s support. Our kid is very young, and it seems like the toughest part of our lives right now (covid doesn’t help). But we make it work, and I honestly think things will get better.
I have tough hours, but my mornings are regular, so I take my kid to daycare every day. We both work, so we can’t look after him during the day. My wife leaves work early to pick him up EoD and then works from home (although this is a Herculean feat that could be an entire post of it’s own). We make every effort to manage our time and have weekends together. That means my evenings can be later than some of my analysts/associates (origination/client and counterparty calls during the day and traditional IBD work at night). We outsource everything we reasonably can: we have a cleaner come regularly and send out all our laundry. We go back and forth on if we should use a babysitter: given the whole point of wanting a kid and wanting to be a good, present parent, we use them sparingly, preferring to use grandparents first. Despite my being in banking, my wife has the tougher overall hours and I try as best I can to be more present and supportive. She and other working moms have actually said it best: "It's f'n impossible. People at work expect you to be there 100%, and other moms make you feel guilty for not entirely focusing on your child. It's not fair."
Our kid is young. Also, our roles are continuing to evolve so that less “office time” is needed. One good thing about covid is that my colleagues have seen that I can be just as productive outside of the office, a habit that I hope continues after things settle down.
Sorry, long answer, but I hope you find it valuable.
Sorry dude, this is only working because your kid is young and you're able to rationalize to yourselves that it doesn't matter for your kid's development (hint: it still does). Just wait until your kid is a little older and one or both of you have to consistently miss games, plays, concerts, etc. on a regular basis. And right now you're only talking about one kid. Two demanding careers and kids don't mix. That shit is going to effect your kid long term; to what extent is anyone's guess.
And I say this with a kid and plans for more, so I get it. My wife gave up a 6-figure job to be a SAH, and we couldn't be happier. She handles the home, I know my family is taken care of, and on my down time I'm able to spend quality time with the ones I love. Yes, our wealth is going to be set back, but it's worth every penny. There's always tradeoff, and your personal decision made with your wife is fine, but don't think you aren't giving up something. Not saying you or your wife also needs to be a SAH, but depending on what you want one of you might have to throttle back your career for family.
Perhaps you are right. I just wanted to contribute to this thread from my own experience as most of these comments are from "Intern in IB" or "Analyst 3+ in IB" and contain phrases like "I heard", "I think" or "I guess".
My wife and I have debated having one of us scale it back, but not SAH. We need the two incomes. But if one of us downshifted, we could easily still be firmly in the financially comfortable range. It's not just about money. My wife and I both want to be good role models for our kid as professionals as well. We are careful to try to balance this with family life. I feel like you and I represent two different extremes. I hope both views are helpful to OP and any readers.
Both my wife and I are "we want everything" personalities, possibly to a fault. Part of the reason we are in NYC as immigrants is to give our kid the best of everything in a cross border existance: access to the best NYC/U.S. has to offer, but also have things like a backyard and space back "home". I would like to believe if my wife and I felt like that goal was suffering (to your point) we would make a course correction to adjust. We'll see.
I'm not sure that I agree with this in whole. I was in banking for more than a decade before I started my own VC-backed company. I work fewer hours now than in my junior days of banking, but it's much more stressful and just as unpredictable. I'm taking a brief mental break and browsing a few favorite sites, like WSO, but I've worked at least 50 of the past 72 hours (as a 42 yo).
We have 2 kids, ages 5 and 2, and my wife works more hours than I do in an executive role at a large company but with somewhat less stress than I deal with. We both work a lot, but we make it work. She and I worked similar hours when we met in our 20's in NYC which was the only thing that made dating possible. 11:30pm dinner dates on the regular and then I'd go back to work frequently.
Your statement about your wife being happy as a SAH wife is great, but that is not always the case. My wife would go crazy. If one of us is meant to be SAH, it's me. Her sister left a very high profile job when she had kids and has struggled with identity ever since. They are the two most competitive people you will ever meet - I'm talking Michael Jordan level competitors with significant, out-of-the-ordinary professional accomplishments. Both have held jobs way harder to get than getting into IB/PE and are great moms as well.
I feel that our kids are thriving, even with COVID. We do have full-time nanny coverage (across 2 people), but we hired people who are additive to our values and good influences on our daughters. We basically see them as extensions of our family. They are smart, educated and have interesting hobbies that they share with our daughters, one is a singer/performer and the other is very into the outdoors, both went to colleges that are viewed favorably by WSO. They are honestly better representatives of our values than many close family members.
You can't completely outsource childcare and expect it to go well, but we find ways to trade off based on daily responsibility and keep engaged, even while the nannies are around. Too many people make it sound like you can't use nannies and still be heavily involved, if both parents have high career expectations.
There are other great examples I know. I have good friends who are a couple, and both are partners at PE funds. They work and travel a lot, but they are very engaged with their 3 kids. She has set expectations around availability for her fund, and they have agreed to it. He cut back travel a few years ago to focus on video calls with a lot of success.
This is not entirely black and white. If a parent wants to be engaged, they can, regardless of hours. The biggest challenge is that you have to have the income to support high quality care for the hours you aren't available, which is very expensive. There's a difference between a nanny who takes your kids camping (on her own time) or to a recording studio/concert versus a babysitter with no plans who is just trying to keep them alive. I believe our kids have a much richer life than wee could provide, even if one of us was SAH and the other worked 40 hours.
—-
This is a wholesome thread. It's great to see no one is ruining it by saying something like:
For the sake of diversity and inclusion, could you please relabel this thread as Womxn who made it work? I can't believe autocorrect is changing it to Women. How backward is Apple?
I’ll use my mother as an example. She didn’t work / worked part time until my sibling and I reached elementary school. Then started a career in law going all the way from associate to equity partner and working for the best law firms in the country. She regularly had 70/80 hrs weeks, and travelled for work once a month. For a few years in elementary school she used to get home after our bedtime. My father worked a regular office job with 40/50 hrs week, cooked dinner every night and was more involved in school stuff - but never overly involved.
I have seen my mother go from a nobody to one of the best lawyers in the country in her field while I was growing up, and I cannot stress how much having that kind of example shapes your work ethic and values. She has now started her own firm and can finally be more flexible with her hours. My sibling and I are both at uni but I’m glad she gets to enjoy more flexibility in her free time now.
Neither of our parents ever pushed us regarding academics, but they did show praise and pride when we excelled. I think that is really what motivated me: knowing that it was my own journey and I was doing it for myself, not because I was told to.
I am now closer to my mother than to my father as she understands my career ambitions better, and despite never helping me in school she really stepped up when I needed during the college application process. She would get home at 10PM and proofread my essays, help me navigate the mountains of forms for financial aid / visas etc, and then leave at 7AM the next morning for work. That is a real superhero if you ask me.
My mother never stepped foot in my high school (no parent-teacher conferences, no sporting events etc) until the day I graduated at the top of my school. She was there to celebrate the big moments.
I think one problem with many peers who were far too coddled is that they were made to feel that every little thing was a big accomplishment. I had to work harder to impress my parents, and never expected them to be present at my school events. School was my job just like they had theirs. I never attended my mum’s award ceremonies, and likewise didn’t expect her to attend my sports practice. But she was there when I needed and always made sure that all the time we had was QUALITY time.
So yes, there are women who make it work!
"Women can't have both" is a classic limiting belief, and all limiting beliefs start the same way.
People who either (i) failed to achieve X or (ii) don't want to make the effort to achieve X, need an excuse for why they couldn't achieve it. They can't accept that they aren't/weren't dedicated enough, so they convince themselves that X simply isn't achievable or isn't "worth it".
And of course its critical for them to spread the limiting belief to others. Because hearing others agree "oh yeah, nobody can achieve X" is very self-assuring.
My personal example, now that I'm in my 30's I have friends trading out of the safer IB/MC/Corporate route and taking entrepreneurial risks. I notice how my other friends (the ones who plan to stay on the safe route) subtly throw shade at the new entrepreneur, in a way that rationalizes their own decision to not go for it. "It's all luck". "I dont' know how he can put his family through that stress". Etc etc. Because what they really can't handle is the possibility that the guy might succeed and be richer than all of us, making us all look like sissies who didn't have the brains, courage or willpower to really make it big.
As my dad says, "whatever you have to tell yourself".
I think if you remove this bias toward thinking women can't have both, you'll see its very easy to find successful women in finance with families. I could list a few, but they're everywhere. Don't believe the hype.
Exhibit A of limiting beliefs is right above us in this thread. IB guy from Toronto says he's making it work, and Corp Dev guy chimes in with (paraphrasing) "you're not making it work, I've had to make XYZ sacrifices and if you don't make those then your kid is going to suffer for it." Classic.
OP: it always looks like this. People will tell you that you can't do it because they can't do it.
I'm a bit on the younger side, so am not as familiar (nor have given that much thought) on family dynamics while working in finance, but I've seen the following during my time at a BB:
Female MD - her husband is basically a stay-at-home dad. Not sure what exactly he does for a living but when I saw him at the Christmas party, I could tell that he was clearly the beta in the relationship. I'm guessing part of the reason is because the wife (MD) is the main one bringing home the bacon (she's a legit rainmaker)
Female VP - She had lateraled to another bank about 2 months after I had joined so all of this is from third party sources but basically she had been in 2-3 serious relationships since she was an associate but apparently they all ended because the boyfriends were intimated by her "high finance" status. Seemed to have a psychological toll on her as she then started dating only hedge fund managers. I believe still unmarried today
Female VP - got married, got pregnant, eventually took her full maternity leave (4 weeks or so?) then the day she came back, she quit. Not sure what she is doing now but people have told me that apparently on the day she quit she had never looked happier. Unclear whether it's because she disliked the job, or she was looking forward to what was next but good for her nonetheless.
What people also don’t get in this thread is that there are physiochemical and hormonal changes when a baby is born for both men and women, but especially for women. Women literally get a megablast of hormones (oxytocin among others) directly to their brains right after the baby is born. People in this thread, especially women without children, have no idea what that will be like and how it will effect your thinking long term. Yea, everyone is a hardo before kids, but studies have shown that many women who go back to work after a baby actually experience physical pain, not just emotional pain, for months on end, akin to withdrawal symptoms of an alcohol or drug addict. You have to be quite the hardo to not even acknowledge this.
An important thing that hasn't been addressed is hours decrease dramatically. I've had a lot of bosses over the years buyside and sellside - none work 80 hours a week, not even close. Also, I have a lot of mid career friends (ED/SVP/Partner), buyside, sellside, big law, etc. very very few continue to work 80 hours a week. Most don't even really hit 60 hours in a standard week.
This assumption that people grind forever is largely incorrect. Sure there might be a bad week here or there but everyone I've ever known works dramatically less with age. There are probably some groups/teams, etc where this isn't the case...but that's a choice to be on those teams vs pivoting something better.
Long story short, you can have a great career and get paid and work ~40-60 hours a week. Unless you're having kids really young this shouldn't be a big issue.
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