Comments (143)

Apr 29, 2018 - 12:53am

Based on everything going on PR-wise DB is not the place to be. Just this morning there was an article about them cutting 1,000 IBD jobs in the US and shutting down their Brazil division. I've also spoken with analysts there who say it's a sinking ship and they wish they hadn't gotten on.

There's still plenty of time for recruitment, it's really hard to turn down an offer, but there's so many other banks that are better for you, especially from a target with a high GPA.

Apr 29, 2018 - 5:17pm

I would also recommend waiting out recruitment and trying to get an offer elsewhere. Check what your school's recruitment rules are as they might have protections in place to prevent being pressured by exploding offers - my school didn't have that but some do.

You can also always ask DB for an extension. They might not give it to you - but never hurts to ask especially if you are leaning towards turning it down anyway.

May 25, 2018 - 5:42pm

Deutsche Bank or Bust? (Originally Posted: 07/07/2018)

Alright fellow monkeys, I have a fun question for you.Where would your other offers have to be from in order to accept an FT or SA IB offer at Deutsche in the US? How bad is it really?

EDIT: Removed controversial information.

Debt isn't the only thing distressed at this shop

May 25, 2018 - 5:43pm

Ouch, apparently this is not such a fun topic after all...

Debt isn't the only thing distressed at this shop

May 25, 2018 - 5:45pm

Deutsche bank Offer - USA (Originally Posted: 06/08/2018)

Cleared all interview rounds and also got the verbal offer from Deutsche Bank USA for Associate role. Unfortunately, hiring got paused due to management changes. Should I be worried? How long should I wait to ask for an update?

Apr 29, 2018 - 7:06pm

They're cutting at least 1000 IBD jobs in the US. Let's be real here - does that sound like a top shop to you?

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Apr 29, 2018 - 8:25pm

No shit, T-Mobile is a German company and DB is Germany's largest balance sheet bank. Doesn't change the fact that DB's US operations are receding faster than LeBron's hairline.

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May 6, 2018 - 3:45pm

My gut says these sort of positions can function even if the corporate entity is in trouble.

Obvious try for elsewhere but banks have failed before and things worked out fine career wise for the worker bees.

I'd try for another offer but it's a fine place to summer/start a career.

Apr 29, 2018 - 9:09pm

Hey Pan European Monkey, reneging an offer is pretty bad at our school, and I don't think the consequences are worth reneging.

May 25, 2018 - 5:52pm

in my experience, with DB, if you got an offer/got rejected, you'd hear back within a day or two. at least for nyc.

May 25, 2018 - 5:56pm

Does anyone know what a standard/acceptable salary for a first year analyst at DB is?.....more specifically the Jacksonville location?

I know it will be less than NYC, but does $50k + $5k signing sound reasonable?

I went to a non-target with an average/below average GPA and am currently doing business development for a HF in NYC making $45k.

Do I take the small pay increase and risk not being able to get a job in NYC in a few years? Or do I waste my time with my current job in NY and try to find something better than both positions?

Sorry for the slight thread hijack.

May 25, 2018 - 5:57pm

werdna:

Does anyone know what a standard/acceptable salary for a first year analyst at DB is?.....more specifically the Jacksonville location?

I know it will be less than NYC, but does $50k + $5k signing sound reasonable?

I went to a non-target with an average/below average GPA and am currently doing business development for a HF in NYC making $45k.

Do I take the small pay increase and risk not being able to get a job in NYC in a few years? Or do I waste my time with my current job in NY and try to find something better than both positions?

Sorry for the slight thread hijack.


you're getting shafted, but no more than any other DB Jax first years.

I've heard of DB Jax analysts getting moved up to NYC for 3rd year.

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May 25, 2018 - 6:02pm

Concerning DB return offer (Originally Posted: 05/17/2012)

Hello everyone~
Has anybody ever received DB's return offer?
Do they give offers on site or via telephone?
If I have to leave by a week earlier, does that have a negative effect?

Thanks!

Apr 29, 2018 - 10:37pm

Have less than a week. I think I have a decent shot at other firms considering my resume, but obviously no guarantees, which is what makes this decision so hard. Thoughts?

May 25, 2018 - 6:03pm

It's given on site on the last day of work. You probably shouldn't leave a week earlier since that's when you have to give your presentation (if you're in markets) and the MDs get together to make their decisions that week as well.

Apr 30, 2018 - 4:24am

Let's look at the facts and put aside any emotions. You only have one offer. What's the upside if you turn down DB? You might receive a better offer at a better BB. What's the downside if you reject the offer? You might end up with nothing if the other interviews don't work out. Based on that risk/reward trade off I would take the DB offer.

Now, what if DB turns out to be a mess after you start working there? Well then you lateral to another bank with some IB experience under your belt. It will be a lot easier to jump ship with some experience from a BB like DB. And trust me, all of us in the industry know that DB is going through a rough patch right now. Any bank trading at 0.4x book is obviously not doing well. So no one will hold it against you if after 6 months or a year you jump to a better US bank.

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Apr 30, 2018 - 4:11pm

There definitely will be opportunities to lateral after your SA. Take the offer right now and continue to recruit if you can. If you get something better then great, if not then you still would have a chance to lateral after your SA or after you start full time. Despite the recent turbulence, DB is still a well-regarded name in the industry and will validate your ability as an analyst. So you should be in a good shape regardless.

May 1, 2018 - 12:16pm

It is not that difficult to lateral to another bank. a buddy of mine started at BMO in January. He has gotten unsolicited interview offers from several BBs who have had the majority of their analyst classes leave 6 months after their start. If you are at DB NY for your SA stint you will have plenty of opportunities to network with people from other banks if you go out and network a little bit. They can often tell you if there will be any openings in their group and may help you get in contact with a recruiter.

May 4, 2018 - 1:07pm

One thing you're missing in your upside/downside is that if he is really at a target with a >3.5 GPA, the real upside possibility is getting a job straight to buyside - that's what I did, and my firm decided to wait to recruit SA19s until the fall.
Base case is that he will just get a BB offer (especially when he says in every interview that he already had an offer from DB and turned it down, so there's some social proof).
Downside case is that he doesn't get an offer anywhere.

May 1, 2018 - 11:10am

I'd take it. They are looking to juniors to rebuild. More responsibility than other shops.

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May 1, 2018 - 2:02pm

You can have all the responsibility in the world but if senior bankers are leaving then you're not going to get much deal flow/experience.

Obstacles are the things you see when you take your eyes off your goals.
May 1, 2018 - 1:53pm

Get the experience, use it to move somewhere else. That place is going down.

Never discuss with idiots, first they drag you at their level, then they beat you with experience.

May 1, 2018 - 1:58pm

Take the offer, continue recruiting and renege if you get something better. If you already had interviews with other firms then let them know about your exploding offer to accelerate the process. You gotta look out for yourself.

Only renege once you have signed the other contract and do it in the most tactful manner (i.e. call them). Do not tell them (or give them any hints) where you signed. DB will be extremely annoyed but they'll forget about you after a few weeks. As for your school, emphasise the situation that DB is currently in and tell them that they should be more concerned about the needs of their students than their relationship with a failing bank. DB is not a place I'd like to start my career at, especially in the US.

Obstacles are the things you see when you take your eyes off your goals.
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May 1, 2018 - 5:24pm

Would your guys opinion change if this was for DB London instead of DB in the U.S?

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May 1, 2018 - 6:58pm

They are not performing well even in Europe, hence the reassessment of strategy. Someone above mentioned that they did not even get on many of the largest deals from Germany. Don't know how that's possible.

Memo also mentions cost-cutting target. Sure, Europe won't experience mass layoff like US or Asia but pay and bonuses would be very worse than the past few years (not sure how low they can go before mass exodus).

May 1, 2018 - 10:29pm
jackdonaghy26:

Would your guys opinion change if this was for DB London instead of DB in the U.S?

Yes.

The bank has reiterated its commitment to Europe endlessly. Worst case, in 2 years they'll move you to Frankfurt.

That is a good spot.

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May 2, 2018 - 5:29am

The whole point of the reorg is to narrow focus on to the european market, so yeah, sentiment would be different for DB London.

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May 2, 2018 - 4:30pm

Europe is going to be the focus, hence is not going to be a drama here, although some restructuring and uncertainty are to be expected. Is DB still a well regarded shop in Europe who still lend to most of the European corporates and get many capital markets mandates? Yes. Is it going to be a great place to work in the short term? Not sure. I spoke with a few former DB juniors and they are so happy to have left as the environment was not great at all with a lot of staff turnover and comp below market.
DB has been the only European bank able to compete with the US BBs so far but I think the scenario going forward will be a DB closer to BNP rather than JPM or GS. Nevertheless, if in Europe, I would still take DB over any non BBs.

May 2, 2018 - 2:46pm

Some good advice in this thread, but there are some very strong voices coming from a bunch of fucking idiots. OP, please do not listen to said idiots.

  1. DO NOT accept the DB offer unless you're also planning on continuing to recruit so you can ultimately reneg. I'm assuming you are a pretty qualified candidate and have the ability and competency to hopefully land another IB SA offer.

There is so much downside to accepting the DB offer. Let's say you accept the offer and in 3 months DB announces they're cutting even more headcount and has to downsize their incoming intern pool. You could get fucked and then at that time you're too late to recruit at other IBs. You'd be fucked.

  1. DB is NOT a good IB shop. That one clown in this thread that keeps on promoting DB is probably a bank teller in Salt Lake City. Fuck that guy.

  2. The people that are saying, "oh just take the SA and then you can lateral for FT" are dumb AF. You're going to be doing zero live deals because literally everyone above you will be trying to look for a new job. You're going to be extremely unmarketable compared to the kid that wants to jump ship from JPM to Evercore because he hates BBs.

  3. In the off chance that you do your SA there, your time will be miserable. The culture is going to be toxic, negative, and overall just a drag.

  4. GTFO while you still can.

  5. jsdkfjsadkfj = squid.

May 6, 2018 - 2:40pm
GrandJury:

Some good advice in this thread, but there are some very strong voices coming from a bunch of fucking idiots. OP, please do not listen to said idiots.
  1. DO NOT accept the DB offer unless you're also planning on continuing to recruit so you can ultimately reneg. I'm assuming you are a pretty qualified candidate and have the ability and competency to hopefully land another IB SA offer.

There is so much downside to accepting the DB offer. Let's say you accept the offer and in 3 months DB announces they're cutting even more headcount and has to downsize their incoming intern pool. You could get fucked and then at that time you're too late to recruit at other IBs. You'd be fucked.

  1. DB is NOT a good IB shop. That one clown in this thread that keeps on promoting DB is probably a bank teller in Salt Lake City. Fuck that guy.

  2. The people that are saying, "oh just take the SA and then you can lateral for FT" are dumb AF. You're going to be doing zero live deals because literally everyone above you will be trying to look for a new job. You're going to be extremely unmarketable compared to the kid that wants to jump ship from JPM to Evercore because he hates BBs.

  3. In the off chance that you do your SA there, your time will be miserable. The culture is going to be toxic, negative, and overall just a drag.

  4. GTFO while you still can.

  5. jsdkfjsadkfj = squid.

I came here on a Sunday to concur with this. Certain groups within DB did pretty well but its clear shit is falling apart. That idiot promoting DB - you are obviously off of your rocker and can fuck right the fuck off...

May 3, 2018 - 2:30am

Alright seems like we have a lot of opposing views here.

I'm currently FT in DB NY CF (not going to say which group), so here's my two cents. It's entirely true that the firm is axing roles in IBD and ST in NY. But the fact is that those that were axed recently were not making money for the firm and they already knew it was coming. Those whom I know that left were able to transition to other BBs/MM roles easily.
Also, majority of those that were axed are in senior positions that were adding too much cost to the firm. At a junior level, this is hardly a problem AFAIK. Morale isn't really that bad as what you read in those sensationalized news articles. DB isn't doing a full scale retreat of IBD and going back to Europe. It's just cutting out the unprofitable parts faster. It's something any bank would do.

So im just saying - take all the comments here with a pinch of salt. Half the people here are uninformed kids that base their comments on what they read from WSJ or efinancial.

May 3, 2018 - 7:45am

Everyday I get a batch of resumes from people at DB IBD applying to us (beyond the analyst level). Yes, underperforming MDs and Directors or those in the groups that are getting cut have been or are getting driven out....plus a lot of those who are left behind are looking actively to jump. DB US has been on the decline for awhile and we have hired selectively over the last years from DB...after a few years of talents leaving DB, the consensus I think is that most of those MDs and Directors and VPs still left at DB are not the strongest ones we would even want to hire at this point. One other similar example is Greenhill...that's another sinking ship with talents leaving left and right and we've been poaching people from Greenhill selectively. Probably give another year or so there won't be that many good talents left at that place either.

Banking is a people business...just because DB didn't physically shut the whole place down in the US doesn't mean there is good business (human capital) still remaining. It's a vicious cycle - A and B rated talents leaving for other banks, left with C and D talents...hiring A and B talents from outside to replace those who left will be too expensive for DB at this point...

May 6, 2018 - 2:42pm
Dryicewall:

Alright seems like we have a lot of opposing views here.

I'm currently FT in DB NY CF (not going to say which group), so here's my two cents. It's entirely true that the firm is axing roles in IBD and ST in NY. But the fact is that those that were axed recently were not making money for the firm and they already knew it was coming. Those whom I know that left were able to transition to other BBs/MM roles easily.
Also, majority of those that were axed are in senior positions that were adding too much cost to the firm. At a junior level, this is hardly a problem AFAIK. Morale isn't really that bad as what you read in those sensationalized news articles. DB isn't doing a full scale retreat of IBD and going back to Europe. It's just cutting out the unprofitable parts faster. It's something any bank would do.

So im just saying - take all the comments here with a pinch of salt. Half the people here are uninformed kids that base their comments on what they read from WSJ or efinancial.

you are really naive

May 3, 2018 - 10:59pm

"Quick someone is wrong on the Internet".

I'm a little bored tonight so I will help out on this thread. Again a ton of misinformation on this thread from people who don't work in banking or even understand the dynamics of getting a job.

To the OPs question
1. If you are in any of the groups that haven't been shut down, yes you will have good deal flow. DB is a debt shop and you will be on every LBO and levfin deal that happens.
2. Yes you can totally parley a SA position to a FT position someplace else if you hate your experience
3. If you liked the people that you interviewed with from the core school (who will be the analysts and associates you work for) take the job. If not don't.
4. Basically any analyst stint can get you a decent job afterwards. Doesn't really matter in the long term. (Unless you are going to GS, but you my friend are not)

Other thoughts
1. DB is not exiting US IB
2. The unit that is doing layoffs includes S&T jobs, prime brokerage and a bunch of other stuff DB is terrible at
3. Yup layoffs
4. Most groups have no more churn than any other BB on the street
5. If you really believe that WF or RBC is better than DB, please oh please go work there and get paid less than market
6. DB pays market for everyone below VP. Sadly, at VP and above there is a 20% or bigger discount
7. You can get the same job out of DB as anywhere else. DB is a debt shop, PE uses debt, PE uses DB.

TLDR: Accept a job with people you like. This job is easy. All analysts get paid a multiple of the median income in this country for less work than they were doing 5 years ago.

TL also DR: DB is just fine. Better than when billions of fines were coming every 3 months.

--There are stupid questions, so think first.
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May 4, 2018 - 1:40am

I'll add to this with my own experience.

Background: I interned at DB and decided to go through FT recruiting and ultimately accepted an offer with another BB.

  1. Based on your post, I'm imagining you work at DB, and it's a little disingenuous to not mention that upfront (tell me if I'm wrong though)
  2. A reminder that there has been at least some layoffs in Corporate Finance (that's what they call IBD) - It's hard to tell exactly what the number is because reports are ambiguous, but it's definitely not just S&T
  3. Exit opportunities. GS> everyone else is hilarious and so obviously false. I won't bother to explain that there are different exit opps between MS/JPM/Citi/BAML and DB because this information is easily searchable.

Things I agree with:
1. DB is not exiting US IB (soon)- strategic and financial buyers will always have a need to tap into that balance sheet, so I don't see any reason for them to get rid of their very strong functions (aka Sponsors, LevFin, Industrials). With that being said, it's definitely not the strongest place to be and if you think that the prestige hit that is happening right now isn't affecting the kind of job you can get afterwards, you're lying to yourself. Billions of fines were tough on the brand, but they were manageable and really had no effect on the strength of the workforce. This is completely different because people are actually being laid off.

"DB is just fine" as in Deutsche Bank, the publicly traded company, is going to be fine. The U.S. IB business is being pared down (the extent to which is unknown to anyone at this point) which was reason enough for me to move to another firm. I would say if you're in or have an opportunity for a strong group and don't have any better options, it's a decent place to be. If not, and you're just considering this as an option as a college kid, I would certainly not recommend that you sign on for this kind of uncertainty. That includes potentially taking an offer from RBC/WF, depending on your risk profile (sure, you'll be making more money at DB, but what good is that if you don't have a job next year?)

May 4, 2018 - 8:25am

Still bored.

Ad Hominem attacks:
1. Of course I work at DB - the amount of info about my background available on this site is pretty substantial
2. Nice burner account
3. I've been posting to this board since most people on this thread were in elementary/middle school. (Rabble... get off my lawn!)

I thought I was very clear with the "Yup layoffs" that there are layoffs across DB (yes in banking too). The major cuts of entire functions (100+ people) are in S&T land.

Maybe I was unclear on the exit opps point. I said you can get a "decent job" from anywhere. Then I clarified that GS trumps all (not just exit opps, but LT resume building, brand outside of banking etc.). I didn't mean that there are not different exit opps.

The rest of stuff in the post seems fine broadly speaking.

--There are stupid questions, so think first.
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May 6, 2018 - 2:48pm
PowerMonkey:

"Quick someone is wrong on the Internet".

I'm a little bored tonight so I will help out on this thread. Again a ton of misinformation on this thread from people who don't work in banking or even understand the dynamics of getting a job.

To the OPs question
1. If you are in any of the groups that haven't been shut down, yes you will have good deal flow. DB is a debt shop and you will be on every LBO and levfin deal that happens.
2. Yes you can totally parley a SA position to a FT position someplace else if you hate your experience
3. If you liked the people that you interviewed with from the core school (who will be the analysts and associates you work for) take the job. If not don't.
4. Basically any analyst stint can get you a decent job afterwards. Doesn't really matter in the long term. (Unless you are going to GS, but you my friend are not)

Other thoughts
1. DB is not exiting US IB
2. The unit that is doing layoffs includes S&T jobs, prime brokerage and a bunch of other stuff DB is terrible at
3. Yup layoffs
4. Most groups have no more churn than any other BB on the street
5. If you really believe that WF or RBC is better than DB, please oh please go work there and get paid less than market
6. DB pays market for everyone below VP. Sadly, at VP and above there is a 20% or bigger discount
7. You can get the same job out of DB as anywhere else. DB is a debt shop, PE uses debt, PE uses DB.

TLDR: Accept a job with people you like. This job is easy. All analysts get paid a multiple of the median income in this country for less work than they were doing 5 years ago.

TL also DR: DB is just fine. Better than when billions of fines were coming every 3 months.

that's funny. how many analysts did levfin take this past year? your intake is around 80-120 analysts on any given year so i'll give you 10% at best. oh, the culture at levin... AFIK - all dartmouth bros. good group though.

sponsors? sure you have "PE" exposure but they dont run their models

TMT = may as well be dead
Consumer = basically dead, not a strong group to begin with
Industrials = some hope but culture is interesting
M&A = joke and culture is toxic
Sponsors - see above
Levfin - see above
healthcare = dead
energy = gone

so yes DB is not exiting IB but you should consider stop drinking the DB koolaid.

May 7, 2018 - 4:39pm

Can you elaborate on healthcare = dead? Didn't they just bring in new group heads? And isn't healthcare a pretty big vertical for Germany / Europe, and a big vertical for PE (everywhere)?

May 10, 2018 - 2:17pm

Your university, assuming you are from a target, will tell you not to do so. Pretty bad from the University's reputational standpoint. Regarding yourself, doors will likely be closed in that bank in the future. Hopefully the people you met from that team will not remember but this is random, your paths may cross again. This is the general scenario, not DB related

May 10, 2018 - 2:13pm

Normally it's bad but who is going to blame you in this situation? Reneging on an offer at DB is quite possibly doing them a favor. They have made offers to people for a Houston office that is no more, and other offices may not be shutting down but they are shrinking. The result is more analysts than seats, and the more of those people they can give spots elsewhere the better the optics are for them.

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May 13, 2018 - 3:41pm

It seems like DB are getting slaughtered in the US. In Europe things are a tad better in terms of exits I.e Warburg, KKR and Centerbridge over the last 3 years, but the 1st year bonuses weren't the greatest last year...

May 15, 2018 - 9:17am
dibs99:

It seems like DB are getting slaughtered in the US. In Europe things are a tad better in terms of exits I.e Warburg, KKR and Centerbridge over the last 3 years, but the 1st year bonuses weren't the greatest last year...

Thanks for the info, can you confirm personally that the exits are accurate? Or is this just from LinkedIn

May 15, 2018 - 10:51am

I can vouch for the Warburg and Centerbridge exits. Not sure about the person who went to KKR. However, I do remember hearing about this girl, who did her SA at DB in London and went Silver Lake full time; this is unheard of in the US but in London things are wayyyy different.

May 15, 2018 - 11:55am

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May 18, 2018 - 4:28pm

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