Do Bulge Brackets and Middle Markets take free Summer Interns?
Had a bunch of Superdays but could not secure an offer at a BB or MM. Started my own business when I was younger that did pretty well so I can work for free, I just want the experience. Is this done, or is it frowned upon?
Thx for your advice.
Bulge Brackets don't take unpaid, period. Depends on the MM but the well-known ones don't take unpaid either.
Boutiques will hire you as as summer for free. Just make sure they let you do meaningful work.
I've personally never seen or heard of it at any of the known names. The main reason is the cost is not a factor for these banks and interns are time and resource intensive for the bankers. There is only so much time and space to train, staff interns and check their work. You can definitely find unpaid internships at smaller shops, but I wouldn't necessarily position yourself that way initially if you don't have to.
It's not quite accurate that they don't do unpaid, period. It is rare. Legally they have to either pay you or give you school credit. My undergrad had unpaid internship opportunities with JPM, BAML, Black Rock and a few other places. They were done during the school year and all created by alums who wanted to help out students. If your school has some sort of class for "experiential learning" then you might be able to sell that to a BB/MM if you have a good connection there.
I was able to sell this exact setup to a family connection who was an MD at a very large international MM IB (RBS, HSBC, BNP), which, when it comes to something like this isn't going to be materially different from a BB. I just enrolled in an experiential learning class concurrent with the internship so that the company was technically compensating me. Now, I did not receive anywhere near the same training as paid interns but by hustling I was able to convert it to a FT offer still.
Having said this, the reality of the situation is, it was not easy. It was the first time that particular bank had ever done it and it took a very well respected MD going to bat for me for a couple months to get it approved. This post is just to say that it is technically possible but the school credit route would be the way you'd likely need to approach it.
Yup, try to find opportunities through the school and through Alumni, perhaps through an externship program. Most Sell-side and buy-side boutiques will take you on for free.
No, they do not. Legally speaking (if I understand the law correctly), if you do anything that the bank can benefit from, you must be paid. Even if that were not true, larger banks are extremely lawsuit-averse. Shelling out a few hundred thousands dollars for interns every year is a lot cheaper than a lawsuit every blue moon or the negative PR that comes with said lawsuits.
Furthermore, the idea that a bank would take on an intern just because that person is willing to work for free just does not make sense. Banks have a limited amount of intern spots because they only have a limited amount of work for interns. Everything that you do has to be checked by an analyst, so it just does not work out to have any more interns than that will allow.
And finally, if you were to intern at a bank for free while others are being paid a prorated analyst's salary, you would eventually hate yourself and lose motivation. Sure, you would think this is the greatest thing since sliced bread for the first week, but it would get old quick. It is like the free black car service. Great at first, but once you realize that getting home early is worth having to pay for a cab, you quickly start hating the black car service.
Unpaid internships - Pay to work (Originally Posted: 01/29/2007)
Do companies like MS and ML check to see if their retail-brokerage interns take a class for school credit? I just got an internship, but right now I am already taking 17 units. A two unit internship class will put me over the 18 unit threshold and then I'll have to pay to work.
anyone?
i had to have reps from my school sign a bunch of papers and such. though i had them do tha before registering for the course, maybe you could do that and never officially register. but i think they do it so they can justify not paying you.
Unpaid internship - No offer yet (Originally Posted: 02/06/2008)
Hi you all I don't have any offer yet and I was thinking if I should do an unpaid internship in a BB/MM/whatever. And my question is
my stats: junior, but can stay 1 more sem to get next summer experience. GPA 3.9, non-target. International student.
Thanks so much!
LOL....
They don't just hand out unpaid internships. They don't care about the money; it's peanuts to them. They care much more about the quality of the candidates. You can't just email them and say, "hey, don't pay me... I'll work for you." You most likely won't get a response.
It probably won't work with BB, but MM or boutique might have a chance.
Nevertheless, you are international student, I believe you would still need a permit/working visa to work for unpaid intern.
isnt unpaid typically for school credit?
yea...even for school credit you would need to apply CPT
basically it sucks for international students i suggest you go back to your home country and find something finance related
Interning for free?? - Looking for internship (Originally Posted: 02/27/2008)
I'm looking for an internship at a BB in NY this summer, and I was wondering if my chances of landing an SA position would be higher if I told recruiters I was willing to work without receiving any compensation at all for the period of the internship. I'd also pay for the boarding expenses myself, so that the firm wouldn't have to bear any expenses at all for the summer. Since the firm is not only saving cash by not paying me, but also, I guess, creating value through the work that I'd do, would that be a favorable deal for them? ie. Would that considerably increase my chances of securing an internship?
Also, I heard that companies are not legally allowed to have someone work for them without paying them, even if they are willing to work for free. Does this sound right to anyone?
Misread. I'm assuming you meant boutique. Good luck!
If it's really a BB (not a typo as soul09 said), then it won't help at all. BB's either pay you/hire you or they don't.
Now if it's a boutique, it can absolutely help and open a lot of doors. I offerred to work for free last summer at a boutique and that's what got me the job (ended up being paid, but it was well below market). This summer I'll be interning at a top tier BB.
So yes, it's a good strategy if it's a boutique firm. Never use it on a BB, makes you look desperate and won't work.
Don't think that just because they are not paying you you don't cost them money. Opening up a spot for training, desk space, admin support, etc. are all costs to the firm. It may be a small amount, but being paid also means you are tied down more than someone who is not paid. You also have no incentive to work as hard as the other SA's, but you still get the benefits of a paid SA who is working there to get it on their resume. I agree it also looks desperate.
You are probably thinking that you will work just as hard as the other SA's, but they don't know that for sure.
If you're talking BBs - that looks a bit desperate, just because I really don't think that these banks care very much about money in finding talent.
If its a regional boutique or maybe even a top boutique (not 100% sure on top boutiques), it might matter a bit more. Personally, I think its impressive if you can intern for free and still like the job that you're doing.
However, like ab123 said, just because they're not paying you doesn't mean it doesn't cost the firm. You're also putting yourself at a huge risk by interning for free - you really don't have incentive to work hard.
Follow-up...
As I contact MMs/boutiques for a summer position, should I only offer to work for free after they start to show no interest ("no, we're not taking interns") or should i jeopardize my chance of getting paid but possibly increase the chance I'll actually get hired and do it up front in my initial contact?
Dear XXX,
I am interested in XXXX internship this summer, whether it be paid or unpaid. I want to learn about XXX and gain as much experience....
You get the jist of it.
I wouldn't use it unless you're talking to somebody in a hiring position. In fact I would only use this on very small boutiques, not MMs. If you're dealing with a recruiter, definitely don't use it.
Unpaid Internship - Cold emailing hundreds of boutiques and small MM banks (Originally Posted: 04/27/2012)
Hi Everyone,
So I've recently been working my ass off for getting an internship and been cold emailing hundreds of boutiques and small MM banks. I've received some good feedback and feel very positively about some of these. However, due to the nature and size of these firms, many of them are unpaid. One in particular, I'd be apparently working as a SA in their mining and energy group. Does anyone else think it is a good idea to take this?
I naturally do not mind if it's unpaid (even though financing my summer will be a pain), but even though it sounds like legit SA work, I'm worried it in reality, won't be. To me, unpaid usually translates to less competitive, and therefore, less mentally strenuous and stimulating work (not that BB SA work is that mentally "stimulating"). Anyways, I am just wondering what everyone else thinks about these situations in general, i.e. unpaid internships?
interested as well, likely be in this same situation for the fall
Haha, most likely. Banking is just going to bend me over this summer. Make money off my loan, and off my work.
Its good if this isn't you junior summer internship...when i recruited most people who got BB banking interviews had some sort of banking experience...irrespective of whether it was paid or not
My first internship was unpaid. When you need the experience, you gotta do what you gotta do. It's worth it.
Also, I am a junior. And I know I need the experience, I'm just considering whether or not an unpaid internship will translate into "good" experience. I have already done two internships and my recent one was quite good, so I really just want something progressive.
^This isn't really something anyone can answer for you given we don't know the firm. Whether or not an unpaid position will be beneficial really depends on the firm, the people you work with, and whether they are currently mandated on interesting projects and can really use the help.
The general answers you're going to get are: "If you don't already have relevant experience, this is a good way to get it and ammo up for FT recruiting".
Maybe you should think of the alternative to taking the job. Do you think that you'll be able to get a similar position that pays now for the summer? Or, if you don't work this summer because you already have good prior experience, what will you do during that time? Unless you plan to fill it with travel or something talk-worthy, it will be asked in an interview: "i noticed you had some good experience in the past, but what did you do in the summer this year?"
Thanks, consider opportunity costs. got it. Regards
I may be in the same boat, are unpaid internship interviews tough? Boutique Investment bank, that is.
I started out doing a unpaid internship at a boutique, just as a resume booster. I worked my ass off and did much more than they asked on every occasion. One of the analysts said we need to talk one day, and offered to start paying me. They even paid for my hours retroactively.
More important than that, was that since they started paying me, I didn't have to do the bullshit work I started out having to do. I got to work on live deals and interacting more with my MDs. This led to my MDs connecting me with some of their personal contacts in the new city I was moving to. This was all because when they gave me a few things to do, which was completely bs and almost mind-numbing, I did it gratefully and I tried to do it little better than they expected.
So, regardless of what someone says, your experiences are going to be mainly driven by you.
Interview Coming Up - Need Advice (Originally Posted: 12/12/2007)
I have an interview at a BB for a summer associate position in S&T. I had my resume dropped by an MD (not a great connection, just an alum of my MBA program that liked me). My resume isn't stellar at all. Seeming this is my only shot, I was thinking of going into the interview with the attitude of "I will do anything to get into this industry/company mindset." I was debating whether or not I should tell them that I would be willing to work for free over the summer just for the chance. Can someone please tell me if they think that this will be viewed as a positive differentiatior or if it could backfire, making me look desperate. Advice/thoughts are much appreciated.
I think that would come off slightly desperate. There's a difference between driven and just plain hungry... and my guess would be to avoid the latter. Anyone else want to comment?
All SAs are relatively cheap. The question is who will add value over the long term to the company. If those interviewing are doing their job right they will try to ascertain if you are indeed the long term value add person. The whole point of this industry is to find great people and pay accordingly, so your "offer" won't be a positive differentiator.
I would recommend doing the most research you can on the firm and reconnect with the MD and try to establish the best connection you can.
I wasn;t attempting to offer a value proposition. I was simply considering that approach to show my dedication. Do you guys think this looks desperate?
dedication isn't everything, and though you can show dedication without showing desperation. again, you have to be qualified, so try to appear confident and show your dedication through other means
Interning for free?? - SA position (Originally Posted: 02/27/2008)
I'm looking for an internship at a BB in NY this summer, and I was wondering if my chances of landing an SA position would be higher if I told recruiters I was willing to work without receiving any compensation at all for the period of the internship. I'd also pay for the boarding expenses myself, so that the firm wouldn't have to bear any expenses at all for the summer. Since the firm is not only saving cash by not paying me, but also, I guess, creating value through the work that I'd do, would that be a favorable deal for them? ie. Would that considerably increase my chances of securing an internship?
Also, I heard that companies are not legally allowed to have someone work for them without paying them, even if they are willing to work for free. Does this sound right to anyone?
Money is the last thing on a bank's mind when hiring for its summer analyst program.
Yeah -- They don't care about the petty cash (relatively speaking) that they throw at SA's.
this can only work on boutiques. If a BB let in some kid that offered to work for free and he turned out to be a complete dumbass, the cost of training you and damage done to the reputation of the firm (among other candidates at target schools) will far exceed that of the 15k they pay SAs.
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