Don't know where to go
Hi,
First time post, but I've been surfing the forums on and off for a long time now.I would like to know the opinions of the readers here.
I graduated from undergrad with a degree in finance, 4 years ago from a decent but not top school. (Please bear with me, I will try to explain this clearly and keep it direct.)
However, my career has been all over the place and my resume is quite shaky.
In 4 years:
3 jobs - One I quit, one I got fired (bad fit and I was depressed) , and am currently employed at the 3rd job.
Also: 12 months of unemployment in those 4 years
My grades were okay (3.3) but nothing special. Without getting too specific, I currently work as an administrator of cdo loans at a bank. It's nothing special but its way better than nothing (which is what I had before).
So at this point i'm in my mid twenties, my experience is pretty poor. My confidence level is also a bit shaky in finance because I've had many bad experiences in the work world. I think there's also quite a bit from school I have forgotten.
So..can I go anywhere with this, in finance? Is it possible I could get a position as an entry level analyst somewhere? I don't have experience in other fields and I don't really want to go back to school for a new career. Or, am I at a dead end already?
The positive: I am a hard worker and I always strive to do great work. In school I did well in my finance courses and one of my classmates from school who I worked on projects with, who is somewhat successful(way more than me, at least), was surprised I had not gotten anywhere after a couple years. He offered me to visit him in NYC and try and apply for jobs out there, but I was too depressed (was just fired at that point) to be ready for this.
All advice is much appreciated, thank you. I really hope I am not at a dead end. Coming out of school, I thought I was going to be at least a little bit successful. So far that is clearly not the case.
I
You need to work on confidence first; you cant move forward without it. Even if you knew everything you were supposed to, without confidence its nothing. If you dont know things; find out, brush up. No one is going to 'discover' you, so get your self to a place where you feel you are capable and deserve it. I'm not really sure how else it can work. My humble opinion.
I agree 100%. You have some great advice to follow from the above posts. CFA level 1 - eh not for everyone. FYI - I am still in pursuit of my happiness but it is within my view. The fact that you have experience in finance suggests that you know your way around to a certain degree. CONFIDENCE and FOCUS is what your lacking. The business is comprised of alpha's in this business some of which are very insecure so should they smell weakness or fear on your part they'll take the opportunity to attack or erode any confidence you have left. They are not the majority however, you should keep them in mind. Also, its okay not to know things in this business especially in an entry level position your expected and more than likely judged on how well you will seek out an answer to a raised question.
Another great one some one mentioned was Focus. You need to set goals. Realistic ones and then work on them without rest until you reach them. Good luck.
not impossible to find an analyst stint, but - not gonna lie - given the current environment and your spotty professional experience, it's gonna be very difficult to break in like this. luck will most definitely have to be on your side, and relying on this is never a good strategy.
i agree with the comment above about confidence. without that, you won't get very far. the second thing i recommend is to really define where in finance you want to go and focus on. this is a very important factor if you graduated several years ago and are looking to transition into high finance or a front-office role. are you interested in investment banking? sales and trading? research? wealth management? while you might think that it's a safer bet to diversify and look into anything that looks promising, you'll be able to sell yourself much more and network way more effectively if you focus on the path that you think suits you best.
invest in yourself to enhance your candidacy. take a financial modeling course like BIWS or Wall Street Prep. Read the most important books in the field youre interested in. get relevant certifications. do whatever it takes to bolster your resume and demonstrate youre genuinely interested in this line of work.
network. network. network. you're gonna have to convince a lot of peeople that despite quitting and being fired in your first couple of years, you are more motivated and competent than those competing against you. you need to build meaningful relationships with people that will be willing to bat for you when the time comes.
if all else fails, look into b-school to rebrand yourself. after 4 years of working, many investment banks will consider you "too old" for an analyst role. you might have to jump in as an unexperienced associate - that's been done numerous times before. but you definitely need an MBA for that.
if you really want to break in, you can definitely do it. but it's gonna take a lot of perseverance and humility to get there.
good luck to you.
I agree with esbanker, if you really want something you can get it, no matter how difficult it seems.
I would second esbanker's advice. You have to rebrand yourself, which is best done by an MBA or maybe even consider a PhD (you said you did well in your finance courses). Either way, your first step should be a GMAT/GRE and see how you score, evaluate and plan your next step.
getting a phd is a horrible idea unless you are passionate about the field, so much so that you'd do it for free (you'd be practically doing so). that, and the huge washout rates in quantitative phd programs means that you're no better than 60% likely to actually finish the degree. the ABDs just lose more years of their lives.
and a 3.3 sets up a hard uphill fight against any phd adcom.
A CV will indicate those factors, you just have to deal with consequences.
As was mentioned above, build confidence, take responsibility for your life, grow up some balls, find what you really want to do and work for it.
CFA Level 1.
Not that it will make a big (any) difference to you in getting a job but it will be massively helpful in rebuilding your finance knowledge.
Its like a general overview of the finance world...nothing in depth but gives you the nuts and bolts.
It sounds like the job your in at the moment is not too time demanding...Study like a lunatic for L1 next June...get it...four upsides to this:
In the meantime keep applying for everything and networking...if nothing comes MSF or MBA.
Sympathise with you because I know what its like to be trapped in a shitty job and how it can get you down and undermine confidence. But if you have a solid plan, want it badly and put the effort in you'll get a finance job imo...might not be Goldman TMT but you'll get something...my 2 cents.
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If you work with CDOs at a bank, you are not nearly as far off as you think. I would keep learning and network my ass off in the ABS world.
are you sure you are really passionate about finance? did you actually look forward to going to work? is this the kind of job you would do if you didn't need the money? would you want to do this work to the exclusion of all others? (within reason) only you know that answer. however, banging your head against the same rock when this is clearly not your passion is just compounding your mistake.
Here's my advice.
Go for a run and sweat some bullets.
Get a notepad, and keep it with you at all times: --Write your career vision (1yr, or 5yrs doesn't matter) --Create your game plan, day-by-day, (networking, online courses, clubs, etc.) --Start small, if you overwhelm yourself you'll shut down, and be back in the shit --Regularly update your goals an reflect on your accomplishments when needed
At the end of each week celebrate what you've done, always move forward --Each step you make, builds more confidence, and puts you that closer to your vision
Other: -Don't buy an MBA or PhD for re-branding alone, in fact, I'd say never buy an MBA and only buy a PhD if you plan to work at NASA (which is awesome, I wish I was an astronaut, no joke).
-You have an opportunity to take an unconventional path; use this to your advantage. Many financiers are typical target grads, 3.8s, rotational program trainees, fodder.
I would agree w/ ES minus the part about networking. That said, it will be hard as shit to convince people you are truly passionate about finance given that there are so many people out there who are younger and who have probably worked in directly applicable fields. Sucks; maybe get a MS. Try the BU MSIM program? It has a Jan. intake.
Thank you everyone for your comments, they really give me a good picture of where I stand.
While I do work at a bank as an administrator for CDO loans, I view this job as a bit of a dead end. There isn't much of a career path here and as mentioned above my chances to get an analyst job are slim. There have been people in this role who have made the jump, but I know of few and very far between. I believe a couple of them had connections and others were on lvl 2 or 3 of the CFA. Certainly, this is no springboard into an analyst role.
fermion - brought up a good question. Is finance my passion? Shit, I wish I knew the answer to this question. I have no clue what my passion is. There are many things I like, but who cares about that? I like cooking, but so what, I don't want to be a poor chef at a diner nor do I want to shell out 50k to go to culinary school to make 10-15/hr anyway as some line cook. Unfortunately, I don't think there is an obvious career choice here if I were to consider a change. Honestly, I wish a path was obvious.
So, I find finance interesting. Am I good at it? I don't know. My reality is that I'm not in a good situation and I don't have many options. I know a few things. I like and want to work hard and I want to have a career that leaves me at least comfortable, financially. I want to be passionate about my career but its tough.
I'll give a little more background: Out of school I was in a competitive rotational program for acctg/finance (audit/FPA/reporting/etc.). I had so much confidence at this time, because as someone with a 3.3 gpa and only 2 acctg classes under my belt, I beat out other candidates who were studying for the CPA for this program, and kids with much higher GPA's, due to my interviews. However, the program did not go well, I didn't get along with my manager and they hated me, a few months later I was canned, even though other associates were given more leeway. I did the best I could but it did not work out. This really fucked up my confidence.
A few months later I got a job but it was not a good one and I was there for 1.5 years. It was a really terrible job with low pay. I quit. 10 months passed of being unemployed (further deterioration of my confidence). Nothing. Then I was lucky, seriously. People backed out of the job I am in now and so I received an offer. I'm doing okay in this role now.
I am rather introverted, so if I made continued headway in finance it would probably have to be research/asset management or something along those lines if I got anywhere in "high finance". On the other hand, I suppose I could just stay here and wait to become an administrator II and then 3 I guess. But man, that sounds fucking depressing.
I know I have confidence issues, I think the only way to remedy these are to make a decision and stick with it. All of this waffling that I am doing is driving me insane.
I digress, otherwise I will begin boarding the whining train of mediocrity here and no one wants to read that shit. Thank you everyone again for the comments, it does help.
John
Figure out how you want to live your life and what you want to do, stick to this vision and don't let anything bring you down. It's all in one's head really, once you're 110% sure which way to go, you would stop second guessing and questioning yourself.
let me give you an honest opinion and some wisdom earned the hard way.
i was in your boat some 10 years ago when i finished undergrad. i didn't have anything lined up, and i was just wondering "what the hell am i going to do next." graduation ceremonies weren't anything to cheer about because i was just worried as hell about how i am going to make rent once i run down my savings. i was wondering: how did i screw this up? how did i get myself into a bind?
i was graduating into a really bad economy, just like you. jobs were very hard to get, and for finance, you needed to have some pretty good internships and internal pull to get you even an interview.
i eventually got something put together, but the advice is not about MY gameplan. it's about YOURS.
the problem with my life at the time was that i didn't realize one fundamental truth of life: that you ALWAYS get what you want. try to let that sink in: you always get what you want. but realize that there is a huge difference between what you SAY you want and what you REALLY want.
you went through a couple of jobs, and actually got canned at one of them. this is a thing that doesn't sound unfamiliar to me. i told myself that i wanted a finance career, but did i really want that? not really. i didn't dream about being an MD or partner 10 years later. i hated doing what i did from day to day. i did not want to learn the IBD trade, and i just generally did not give a shit about anything that i was doing that was finance-related. i said to myself that i wanted to do finance -- but i didn't want it. what i REALLY wanted was to FAIL at finance, because how else would you explain an otherwise reasonable kid setting himself up in a career where he is all but assured to fail?
it's amazing what damage we can do by lying to ourselves. in a way, i was lucky, because i hated it so much, and i had such an incapacity to fake it, that i washed out early and ended doing something else that i loved a lot more (and was way more successful at). i know people who faked it through their analyst and associate and even made it to VP. who knows if my two old MD pals are still faking it. as you leave that system, you become more honest with yourself. some of them actually love finance, for sure, but appearances are deceiving and you can't take everything people say at face value. even some mid-30s professionals are just as lost as you are. the only difference is that they have a paycheck and an office.
but the one thing that you have that they don't is the best decade of your life ahead of you. so the first thing you need to do is to take a few weeks or months, CALM the FUCK down, and really think about what you want out of life. it's good that you identified that your lack of self esteem is a problem. that's a huge problem. because in the company that i run and own, i would shitcan you the first chance i get because as an employer, i cannot possibly carry a liability like you. in your present shape, you are good for nothing to me.
however, lack of self esteem is one of the most easily fixable problems. once you find what you are passionate about, what you truly love to get up in the morning for, watch your self esteem soar.
here's the hard part. only you will know what you are passionate about. for you to find what it is, you MUST stop lying to yourself. it's clear that you've completely clouded your mind with self deception for you to have gotten into the shape you are in today. there is no way in hell you can possibly get canned from a job where you are passionate about the work. take it from a guy who has been an employee and an employer: it is absolutely impossible. clear the lies from your head, and think: what kind of job would i love to do for 16 hours a day, day in and day out?
all of this will take self-discipline, patience and time. at the very least, you have plenty of time. and i hope you use it. because the depression you feel now will be NOTHING like the regret you will feel in 10 years if you continue to live a life of lies.
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