Effects of gender on career aspirations?
Hey WSO, I ran into this article a few days ago about a totally unknown chef skyrocketing in fame in the culinary world. Most importantly, she mentioned something that I thought was worth thinking about,
“I had chef friends who said I should go on the stage and say I am not accepting it [award for World's Best Female Chef],” she says, and laughs. “I said: ‘Did you ever say no to an award?’ So here is my explanation. It is very clear for a woman in a male world, it’s always going to be difficult. A woman has so many roles - as a mother, as a wife, as a lover, as a housekeeper - and then you try to fit in 14 or 16 hours working.”“The best chefs in this world - look at Massimo Bottura, look at Rene Redzepi - they have great wives. They are 100 percent on their work because it’s taken care of, their children, it’s taken care of their private life. They come home probably somebody even cooks for them and has time to chat to them.”
“Do you think that happens to a woman? You can never compare these two different worlds.”
What are your thoughts? I am not sure what the differences between lifestyles are like for a woman in Slovenia (which this chef hails from) and the US. She mentions a few examples of a woman's role in a household and the difficulties it presents in pursuing a career. This all sounds very old-fashioned to me but I am also,
- Not living with a spouse or lover of any sorts (...luckily? maybe?)
- Still in college so a paying career is still non-existent for me
Or in other words I'm not very fit for making an informed thought on this.
So I'd like to share this with you all WSO! What are your thoughts on this chef's words in the world of high finance?
1. Are women's lives in the US much more multi-dimensional than men's, thus making career aspirations for them much more difficult?
2. What do you think are the greatest obstacles women face in finance and do you think there is an improvement for women in facing these obstacles?
3. Is there a trend for more women going into finance? How would a career in finance even be "marketed" for women still exploring career possibilities?
I'm all for equality, but I personally have a different view on history. I actually view women as always having better lives except for the top 1% of men. So I think men should start pushing for equal rights a bit more.
I think the post by CRE Shervin sums up a few of the reasons well
> What do you think are the greatest obstacles women face in finance and do you think there is an improvement for women in facing these obstacles?
It's not so much the obstacles faced in finance, but the natural obstacles of being a woman. Look, if I ever want kids, I essentially have to suffer 9 months of rollercoster-level pain (cramps, nausea, bloating, diabetes, hormone fluctuations, you name it). And then I pop out a wailing, can't-do-shit kid and need to take at least a month off from work (usually more) to nurture said kid. Once kid grows up, now I have motherly duties which stereotypically involve dressing it, feeding it, teaching it how to not be a brat, helping it with homework, and chauffeuring it around. Even if you had a full-time nanny, it is hard to not want to be involved in your child's life.
My MD blew a gasket when I was out of work for 2 days because of bird flu. If think taking 3 months off for maternity leave isn't going to set me back, you're delusional.
I'm a woman. Even I have made arguments to not put married/I'm-trying-to-get-preggers women in managerial positions because yes, more than likely they will struggle with juggling family life and the time/effort that needs to be put in to be successful. Not saying that it's not possible, but statistically the risk is sometimes not worth the benefit of the doubt.
This is 100% correct, and not just chef's but Fortune 500 CEO's. The flip side is how are you(women) going to find a man who has all those nurturing instincts and wants to stay at home...and still find yourself attracted to him. The answer is that you are not.
Also, it takes an intense level of competition to get to the top of your field. It takes all-nighters, and when you get older a stable household. Now I'm not saying working 100 hours a week is ideal, I don't need nor do I think everyone should aspire to that and that it is the paragon of gender dimorphism. But I do know that for those hyper competitive in business, who want to rise to the top are usually not the most happy. I would say the trend of women getting full "equality" has hurt their overall happiness in life.
The obstacles are clear, if you hire a married woman of child bearing years, yes you are risking her leaving her job. However on the flip side women CAN work later in life, especially in the middle class. Men get laid off at 55-65(if you're lucky), and women can be octagenarian librarians etc. And look, it's not an IQ thing or anything like that, but this is hyper competitive and it is essentially about dominance hierarchies. Now women don't have to work hard to be at the top of the female dominance hierarchy, they must simply have the physical and mental traits necessary. A man if he is not physically attractive etc, or to compensate and rise in his status must secure access to wealth. Women never NEED to work to be secure financially , so at best it is an intellectual outlet. You will never work as hard as the guy who needs to rise in the dominance hierarchy.
Well said, agree with all of this.
Everything in life requires some sacrifice. The people telling you you can "be anything you want/dream all, be all" is fake news. Believe nothing you hear, half of everything you see.
Bitching about biology won't change it. And if men had things easier, why do they have lower life expectancies, work in more dangerous jobs, have lower educational attainment and have higher rates of substance abuse.
And no one says a woman has to get pregnant nowadays. It is a choice.
News flash. You can't have your cake and eat it too. And while a 100% dedicated professional can achieve more than someone distracted, where do you think that professionals income is going to ensure this distraction free life? Exactly.
And higher suicide rate, fewer parental rights, lower college graduation rates, higher accidental death rates. I'm so goddamn sick of American women bitching and complaining about persecution in America. Never, in the history of humanity, have women had it so good as they have it in the United States.
Pretty sure it's possible to change genders now in-case you're unhappy with the one you got.
Who doesn't like the idea of being a gendervoid foxkin demiqueer?
Only somewhat related, but Chef's Table (the TV show that the chef in question was on) on Netflix is excellent if you ever have the chance to watch it.
THIS IS LONG. This is also my first post. I thought my story would be helpful.
As a female undergrad student who is interested in a career in finance after graduating, I debated long and hard before I made such plans. I took many things into consideration but most of my decision was based off witnessing the lives of the women in my family and women in the industry who've inspired me. My mother's family came to the U.S. from Croatia and she met my father while he was in school in Michigan. She fell in love and decided to make being his wife and raising the kids her full time job. When they got divorced and my brother and I were all grown up and off at school doing our own thing, I remember how lost she was, and still is. The divorce was for the better but my mother struggled with her sense of purpose.
Overhearing her talk about struggling financially really put things into perspective for me. My father was supportive but even with a team behind her, there's an intensely inexplicable vulnerability that comes with no longer doing the things you think you're made to do. When I was little I was the girl who wanted to be a princess, fall in love with the perfect guy, and dress in anything vogue claimed was in style. I could tell my mom was worried about my over romanticization of life so she drilled some reality into me by saying "find a place you want to live and figure out a way to make a living to get there." I would roll my eyes then, but after the divorce I heard her say it with new ears.
I began to critically exam the interests, hobbies, activities, and goals I had. On paper I separated the things I enjoyed doing for fun (like writing, reading, traveling, swimming, cooking) v.s. things I was skilled at and could make useful as a career (financial/market knowledge, math, compsci.) A lot of my friends at school have traditional outlooks and breeze through majors of journalism, psychology, english, and communications while taking up marriage scouting extracurriculars (not meant to be rude, we joke about it all the time.) I followed along with this mindset, but since the divorce I changed from journalism to econ/finance. I know college is a place to explore and try new things but the divorce instilled a sense of responsibility in me. I've gone out and found incredible female mentors within the industry(VC's, IB's, angel investors, entrepreneurs) who have shown me how wonderful life can be at work and at home with their husbands and children. Seeing whats possible has been crucial in developing grit with my studies. Of all the decisions my 19-yr-old self made, this was the most confident one I've ever made.
I think the important thing to note here is that of course I want to build a family with someone. Of course I want to do all the home making things like designing and gardening and cooking and what not. But I also understand that I'm young, and that's not happening for me right now. Now is a time for learning. I've fallen in love with learning about the industry and currently have books like Moral Hazard, A Man for All Markets, Women on Wall Street, Barbarians at the Gate and mannnny more sitting next to my class textbooks.
Reading from so many different perspectives has made it blindingly clear that no matter what you do, regardless of biology, the ultimate path to success is a road paved with strong relationships and incredible grit to keep working hard. I need the knowledge, relationships, and skills that will make me valuable to employers and lead me to financial independence. Landing a career in the industry would be an incredible personal and financial gain. In all honesty though, I don't really give a shit about money but I care an awful lot about what money can do for me.
In my opinion the argument about inequality can't happen without talking about talent. As a former elite athlete my mantra was always "hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard." It's important for women, for anyone, to work hard to get where they want. When I do meet someone along the way who is equally driven with financial and lifestyle goals, it will make all the hard work and experience 100% worth it. One of my mentors has told me that "if you spend more time specializing in the thing you love working hard at and less time dabbling with miscellaneous interests, you're likely to meet someone who loves the work like you do and you just might be the perfect match." Or so was the case for her.. Anyways, here's to hoping. And here's to hard work!
I think I said what I was trying to say. Sidenote, I'm so grateful I found WSO. Finding this blog and creating an account has been a tremendous learning tool!
This is good, I wish my sister would start thinking just a little bit like you. She dropped uni after one year because she "was not understanding", which happens to be a lie because she was getting good marks in her coursework and exams. Phones are a distraction nowadays, specially Instagram, most girls want to be "models" and promote protein powder or clothes, which is not bad either if you get lucky and can make money off it. All she does now is be on her phone 20 hours a day, I try to get some sense into her but no can't do, that and boyfriends.
bravo
Don't let SEXISM hold you back! You go girl! #FEMINIST
Isn't feminism dead?
Sadly it is not
Quit promoting patriachalz normative idealogyz, ya dumb bigot!
The problem with these fucking bitches is that they keep complaining about being limited in their career because they can't find a stay at home man. But then they keep fucking around with alpha overachievers and never even give a chance to guys who would actually be willing to support them. And even when they do they just lose all respect for him because they can't tame their hypergamy, and end up sleeping with their boss anyway. If they want a supportive partner, they can just do what all ambitious/workaholic men have done for ages : Marry a loving partner who brings other qualities and benefits to their life. But no these airheads keep following the biggest dick in the room and then complain when he doesn't want to cut his balls.
Bitches are very complicated. They want to have it all, because, who doesn't?
I often cringe at some of the things people write about women here, but there is some truth in this. I have a lot of career oriented friends with degrees from HYP, who will only date people from HYP despite not living in America. They want men who are very driven by their career. And have to be super hot etc. Quite a few of thse these friends affairs with married (or long-term relationship) men.
Some of these friends have never been in a relationship. Which doesn't surprise me because the above criteria rule out a LOT of people, and the criteria have little to do with how happy they would be day-to-day in a relationship. It also strikes me as strange because these guys who put their careers first will also put their careers above their partner. Who do you really think will be taking parental leave? Who will have to rush from work to pick up the kids if they're sick? Who will be stuck doing the housework? Who will be able to travel for work?
"A woman has so many roles - as a mother, as a wife, as a lover, as a housekeeper - and then you try to fit in 14 or 16 hours working."
Terrible quote, as it is equally as applicable to virtually any man. father, lover, housekeeper (most men have to do this as well, and most successful men/women choose to outsource this equally).
I do not mean to discredit the disadvantages women have within the workplace, only to state that these are poor examples of the hurdles that must be overcome. All the successful businesswomen I know have nanny's. housekeepers, etc., and both the husband and wife have time to focus on their careers and family (whenever possible).
There are 10,000 studies done on how few women make it to C-suite positions, and even fewer hold the title of CEO or CFO. However, within banking, many firms (especially larger ones) are pushing to level the gender playing fields at LOWER levels. A lot of work needs to be done in regards to management positions, or the applicants need to be better (most likely some of both, but more the former would be my guess).
title should be "effects of gender on EVERYTHING ELSE IN LIFE"
im about to be a house husband homies i cant wait
Et totam cupiditate dolorum. Omnis mollitia est iste repellendus laborum quo vel fugiat. Voluptatem nesciunt aut atque reprehenderit.
Dolorum officia ut quae perferendis eaque rerum et. Dolore repudiandae occaecati quae reprehenderit quis perspiciatis magnam et. Doloremque est voluptas nostrum eaque molestias culpa. Illum corporis unde eius maiores. Optio natus quia sed ex consectetur.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Tenetur corporis est magnam natus quas voluptatum. Voluptates odio id aliquid enim sequi. Corrupti recusandae eius pariatur vitae labore. Veritatis asperiores accusamus enim eos maxime. Et dolores unde quo sint placeat quis et.
Quos dolores eveniet odio expedita ducimus praesentium velit. Velit quaerat quo harum nihil ut rerum sit. Quaerat dolor unde inventore. Fugiat qui mollitia enim excepturi possimus distinctio. Voluptatem voluptas optio quo.
Quia neque earum est itaque et. Sunt est ex error provident explicabo. Animi veniam officiis et facilis cumque sit sed. Natus perferendis ratione est aut nisi est qui. Aut ipsum possimus animi. Qui tenetur aut inventore harum voluptas ratione inventore.
Est est nulla voluptatem repellat expedita. Cupiditate impedit eum blanditiis. Quibusdam amet perferendis vel numquam animi nihil velit. Ipsam vero ratione ea quasi. Ad doloribus nihil saepe incidunt eos ipsum velit. Maxime cumque dolorem maxime quis commodi. Ipsa ut vel est aut.