Failed to "Break In" at my MBA Program - Next Steps?
I'm currently a first year MBA student at a top finance MBA program (Booth, Wharton, CBS, etc.) and was unsuccessful during the recruiting season and did not land a summer associate internship. My goal is to break into IB, but I'm not sure what options are left.
I casted a wide net during recruiting process but got no love. Do any major banks come back to campus in the spring? Am I shit out of luck? Looking to see what the next best steps are here.
Any feedback on why you were dinged? Also, guessing you go to CBS since it's definitely not the same as the other 2.
Edit: Lol looks like some butthurt CBS grads here - it's like saying "I work at GS / MS / DB"
Unfortunately no feedback. I thought I did well and was expecting at least one offer.
Do you happen to have any insights on boutiques or banks in general that might recruit in the spring?
My guess is it'll be more one-off opps or pretty small shops looking so late in spring.
Could you be more specific about the difference between CBS and the other two? Thanks!
NuclearPenguins
Can you explain why Columbia is worse than Booth? Aren't they both MBA business schools">M7 and wouldn't the NY aspect make it on par or better than Booth? I always assumed the east coast schools and stanford were better than Kellogg and Booth.
There is no meaningful difference. Columbia, Wharton and Booth are all fantastic schools.
They aren't the same. It isn't a prestige thing, more a factor of how many students at each of these schools are recruiting for investment banking. Banks have an allotted number of spots they have for each school, so it will be more difficult the more people that are recruiting for banking. There will be roughly the same number of spots at Wharton, Booth, and CBS for students, but a larger percentage of the class will be fighting for those at CBS. Lesser schools will have fewer spots.
I know of at least 5 first years at CBS this year that completely struck out at investment banking. There was an unprecedented number of students recruiting for IB this year at CBS. Just comes down to a numbers game. These students were all fully capable.
You should really focus on how well a bank does at your respective school and how many others are also gunning after it. CBS being known for banking is not necessarily helpful if everyone else feels the same way.
HEY! MS IS A GREAT BANK FOOL
Dude...he was clearly talking about Goldman
Are you international / have visa issues?
Nope. I'm a US citizen and did well throughout the process but idk what happened at the end. I left the interviews feeling pretty good about myself.
Probably could be something as simple as other candidates relying on their connections in BBs they interviewed at.
That sucks. I was in your shoes a few years ago. What helped was
It's not easy to get into ib if you get cut out of the traditional process but it is possible. Pm me if you have additional questions.
Major banks should be done by end of January. Random middle market / regional might post or set up coffee chats for people who didn't get an offer during January OCR.
Other than asking for feedback with the firms, I think it's helpful to ask your peers whom you trust (not the dickheads who try to fuck you to get that offer - you and me both know plenty of those "finance bro" types in bschool, especially a top one like yours) what they think of you as an IB candidate - do you have the qualities they are looking for. And tell your peers to be brutally honest about their view of your candidacy.
While IB is a numbers game, if you didn't get a single offer with any of the banks, you really should reassess your FIT (notice I say fit, not brain) for the profession.
Any advice you can share on the 'fit' aspect? I am international starting at a Top 20 MBA in the fall and will be recruiting for IB. Thanks.
Sell side, sell side, it's about the selling. IB is a sales job. How do you get people to buy your stuff? You have to make them like you first. That's the "fit" part. IB is like a fraternity (anyone thinks IB is diverse is just delusional), the candidates whom the bankers like get offers.
You are international. You are at a natural disadvantage: 1. first of all, if you are not white, you don't look like them - it's not racism, it's just human nature for people to PREFER to interact with ppl who are like them 2. when they talk about the World Series MVP or how Alshon Jeffrey dropped that crucial pass, you are immediately in that "out" group when your peers start talking about those sports games they watched last night. I think language is never a challenge for international students, but understanding American culture is not something that can be learned very quickly. It's hard and unfair because you grew up in another country, but the bar is still the same because you want to work in the United States - nobody cares that English is your second language, if you cannot add comparable value, why should you be compensated the same as that associate who is American-born.
Few ways to influence (per Robert Cialdini): appearance - if you look like George Clooney, then thank god for that gift, otherwise, definitely dress very well (focus on fit, not brand) - tailored solid navy suits, solid tie with white shirt, nice shoes, get a good haircut, get a decent leather briefcase; similarity - try to relate to your interviewer about anything at all you guys have in common and bring that up in the interview.
Thank you so much for the solid advice. Will be great if you can answer few more questions.
Only thing I have to add to this, is not to make the same mistake I see many non-western internationals make, and that's limiting your friend group to students from your region/country, almost to the point of de-facto segregating yourself. Make a concerted effort to hang out w/ the locals even if you feel out of place-you'll pick things up (references, mannerisms, jokes, sports news, etc) much faster without coming off too rehearsed as well as just being more comfortable around the type you'll need to click with during recruiting.
All good stuff but:
>first of all, if you are not white, you don't look like them - it's not racism, it's just human nature for people to PREFER to interact with ppl who are like them
This is literal racism.
Yes, it is. Thank you for saying that.
I came to the US from Asia, and I don't get "triggered" by this or think of it as racism. Same thing would happen back home.
It is racism if you are a brain dead liberal.
At the MBA level, there is a lot of networking required just to get the first round. The amount of interaction prior to interviews for most banks far exceeds the amount of interaction during superdays. If they made it to final rounds with 6 banks, it's hard to believe it's a fit issue.
What is your background? Do you have any relevant experience in finance, or are you trying to pivot careers in a major way? How many final rounds did you get with different banks?
Background in MC and looking to pivot careers. I had 6 final rounds at 4 BBs and 2 EBs and throughout the informational interview process and closed list recruitment events I seemed to fit in well with most of the bankers and got along with them. I'm probably going to continue to assess how I interviewed and see what I can do to improve my chances to break in.
I'm a second year MBA and just spent the last two weeks coaching the first years during superweek (almost entirely at a specific non-NYC IB hub - Chicago/Houston/SF/Charlotte/etc). Occasionally, there's one or two guys that have the grades, background, are fairly normal, and seem like they should be fine....but they aren't and wind up offerless. It's happens. It's less of a function of them being poor candidates and more of a function of life taking a shitty random walk and that person having poor luck. I think this is probably the category you fall into seeing as how you landed 6 superdays. I know for the guys that interned in NYC last year at in my program (ranked 15-20 range; semi-to-non target) found their internships late in the process (February-ish), so keep on hustling. Echoing other posters who are encouraging your to go after whatever boutique internship you can get (even if it's some shit-tier, no-name shop), land a FT offer, and re-recruit in the spring. It's much easier doing it this way than choosing some non-IB gig and having to explain why you couldn't land a first year internship offer (usually a big red flag, although not as big of a red flag as interning, not receiving a FT offer, and rerecruiting during your second year).
You had 6 final rounds without an offer? Those are tough odds—I'm sorry to hear.
How did you answer the Are we your #1? question because some banks don't want to risk an offer on someone who dances around the question.
have you looked into tech firms internship programs (amazon, google, facebook, etc...)
A lot of the major tech firms come pretty early on so I will have to wait to see if they come back in the spring.
Honestly can't imagine any career that's less relevant to IB. It's like asking someone who didn't get a return offer in high yield credit sales if they considered working at the zoo.
Word to the wise, careers rarely go the direction we envision them. Shit happens along the way. It's not the end of the world. The trick is to keep your mind open to any other possibilities.
Limiting yourself solely to IB, especially pure-play on-campus recruitment is suicide. Got my MBA at HBS. Top brand hands down. Had a stellar GPA, solid recommendations. Problem was, everybody in the pool had an identical profile. It's just not mathematically possible to stand out on pure merit and a 60 second impression. Long story short, 80% of placements went out to the "in" crowd, 20% to the "asslickers", while the rest got effed.
Good news is that consulting firms were parked on capus like vultures, hoping to snatch the scraps. Good to check with your career office if any are shopping around. Another option is to grab a coffee with a professor you have a rapport with, and ask about any opportunities at his firm, or simply ask for advice.
In my case, thanks to the efforts of my brilliant girlfriend (now wife) I dropped the IB aspirations altogether, and instead headed to the Valley to take advantage of VC/PE culture out there. The VC's by IB standards, run an erratic, informal recruitment and are fairly easy to crack with right recommendations and a few meet-and-greets. Money isn't IB fabulous, but it's a far more laid back, more interesting atmosphere. We took couple of trips out to San Fran for a few network sessions, and ended up hitting the right people. Keep your mind open to the Valley. We've got tons of good shops out here.
OP you can definitely keep pursuing boutique and MM options in IB, as well as Big 4 Corporate Finance (their IB arm) and other corporate finance, FAS and related management consulting roles (e.g. LEK, Bain). If you don't fix what you did wrong in IB recruiting, however, you are very much at risk for those processes. It's probably more about your story and fit than you would think.
Also, you will potentially have an opportunity to recruit toward the end of your summer internship at banks who may have a slot open up due to not hiring the full intern class. Make sure you get a return offer wherever you summer.
You sound awesome and I am very glad it worked out for you (and your wife!)
Thanks. Appreciate it.
when did it go from asskisser to asslicker. wtf?
It is 2019; who doesn't eat ass? HaHa
Anecdotal, but I've noticed asslicker being most commonly used by Europeans.
Well put, bro. Kudos to your wife.
Thanks, man. I'll pass it on.
Damn everyone should be lucky enough to find the dream wife like you did. Was she a HBS staff or a fellow student?
She was an RA (Research Associate) in our Entrepreneurship Department. We have an 8-year age gap, so she was only 2-3 years out of undergrad at the time. Highly recommend catching one young like that.
Wow. Awesome girl. I'm curious though, how did she come up with the VC idea? Talk about fringe. Was she of the background?
Great question. Yes, she did a stint at Sequoia few years back, so she was well-versed.
Solid post, man. Your wife 's awesome. Respect her for sticking it out with you when a lesser woman would have left for a banking guy.
I will caveat this post for gweiss101 . Networking your way into cozy VC jobs is 10x easier when you're HBS or GSB (or other M7) than for nearly everyone else.
In fact, getting into VC is primarily a networking game, so his HBS networking path wasn't "sneaking in the back door", it was the standard.
Also, I'm surprised by the implication here that a standard path IB job is more desirable than VC in the valley, especially in 2018.
I don't buy the notion that profiles are identical. There are always ways to stand out, whether its telling your story just a little better than the next guy or having completely different life experiences.
While others suggested alternative career paths (although consulting at MBB is a really good path, way more interesting than IB), and its hard to not agree but if you really, like fucking really want IB, do not have a plan B.
I suspect it's not your profile that's holding you back but maybe your style/approach. I never advertise for free but in this case, I really recommend you set up a few mock interview sessions with qualified post MBA WSO mentors so they can give you the unbias cold hard truth on why you may not be getting offers.
Good luck!!
MBA recruiting for IB is based on slots. Schools usually have a set number of slots or proportion of slots. You're basically competing with your own peers for those spots. Could have been a relative comparison situation.
That said if you are at one of those said schools, you can still rely on a very strong alumni network to break in for FT recruiting or even as a lateral afterwards. Try to get a decent finance focused internship and make the case that you've gained some tangible valuation or industry skills. You could aim for an industry coverage group related to your internship. Networking the hell out of your alumni base works. Trust in it. Good luck.
How many people in your class are in the same situation? It's probably naive from me, but I thought you had a shoe in just going to CBS and being in the city for IB.
It's not over yet! I would recommend reaching out to recruiters at banks you might not have targeted. Good luck...
Having literally just gone through this process myself, and being successful in garnering offer(s), I found it really helpful personally to reflect on each and one of my subsequent interactions with members of that particular bank - leading up to the super day. It really helped to jot down crucial notes/tips that you've accumulated from each coffee chat. you can then use all those "golden nuggets" of info moving forward to the next coffee chat, and ultimately the super. So for me, each meeting with someone of a particular bank built on top of one another, and in the end, the superday felt somewhat even comfortable. At that point, you'll know what to say in terms of fit, etc as you would've had a lot more data points on the bank.
Perhaps network a bit more is my advice.
I went to a non-target school and made my way in into a MM shop for internship and did not end up getting an offer there. I still wanted to do IB and networked my entire second year and got an offer after I graduated with a solid MM shop in Chicago.
Based on my experiences hustling for 2 years, my advice would be to try to get some IB internship somewhere. There are a lot of small shops around which may be looking for interns in spring. Additionally, look to really small boutiques that run a business model of having free interns over the summer (Bentley and Bois are 2 I know). In my view having the IB internship on the resume is mush stronger than having a corp fin or any other internship. It is much harder to recruit for full time roles in the second year. Hopefully your school is able to bring some OCR for a few spots. Network your ass off. The internship will also hopefully help you understand what IBs really want from an associate.
Hopefully that helps.
Don’t give up. Continue to network, I know a lot of people who did Corp fin/bus dev and then went banking FT after mba
I have a same question as above. I missed my chance to break in during the MBA process. Non-target MBA program with no prior Finance experience, bombed interviews first year and ended up taking an internship with the University's Endowment ($8 billion AUM) stayed on as a full year intern and leveraged it to get interviews with local boutique advisory & PE firms but ended up getting a well paid role in Commercial/Consumer banking that I reasonably couldn't/shouldn't turn down (married with first child on the way at the time) due to timing of offer. Thinking of switching internally to a Corp Fin role and utilizing that experience to prove my worth. I'm open to any advice on how to appear more attractive in the recruitment process, thank you
What was the approx ranking of your MBA?
Top 25 (US News rankings)
I don't mean to criticize you but that is a GREAT outcome given both your previous (bombing interviews) and current (kid on the way) situation. Why not give yourself 2 years to grow into the role/master it and then re-evaluate?
Not that it's wrong to still be chasing IB just want to ensure you're not a glutton for punishment and are doing it for the right reasons.
Quia fugiat in iusto non. Doloribus quae aut aut corporis in non vitae. Aut in facilis aliquid quod. Necessitatibus est et fugit ea.
Illum sit debitis itaque mollitia ab molestias unde quidem. Est tempore voluptas nisi eos sed aperiam. Et debitis et repellendus id et nam. Nemo qui et et. Ab quam nihil labore ut a dolor.
Voluptas assumenda corrupti id nemo consequatur. Similique ea non corporis tempora magni nihil repudiandae. At doloribus at beatae sed quis. Blanditiis totam vel saepe porro et dolorem magnam.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Expedita et totam officia voluptas aut consequuntur. Quia natus eveniet quia provident et praesentium laudantium. Voluptas sequi rem ut aliquid.
Dolore vel est cum dignissimos aut vel. Iusto et dicta id aut est nisi dicta sint. Ut culpa earum maxime non fugiat nobis.
Id similique sit dolore voluptas non aperiam maxime commodi. Fugiat molestias atque soluta eum. Voluptatem qui vel labore illo quibusdam incidunt culpa. Aut et reiciendis qui voluptatum ea quibusdam.
Ut a et sed sit. Maxime aliquid non explicabo quia quod deleniti expedita.
Deleniti reiciendis nesciunt est deserunt. Quas deleniti distinctio quos mollitia porro maxime tempore. Eaque sit accusamus veniam id id eveniet placeat. Qui enim et ratione rem laborum unde. Ipsa deserunt sunt quo est ut rerum consequatur aut. Quia aut sed sapiente voluptatibus.