Guggenheim vs Jefferies
Hi everyone! I'm fortunate enough to be in the position to have two great offers from Guggenheim (generalist, Chicago) and Jefferies (TMT, Charlotte), and I'd love to hear all of your thoughts. My thoughts so far:
- I don't really care about the MF PE route, so I'm looking at the banks more in terms of places to be a career banker or exits into UMM/MM PE.
- I networked with a lot of people in the Jefferies office, and I really like everyone I've met there. The culture there definitely seems to be very collegial and not the stereotypical Jefferies culture.
- Based on the people I've networked with and the conversations I've had, Guggenheim's culture isn't bad but it's nothing special. Everyone was nice but kind of bland and I didn't click with anyone there.
OP here. Also forgot to mention that a big draw of the TMT group is that all M&A is done in-house and the group is almost an exclusive M&A group unlike a lot of other coverage groups at Jefferies.
Every group at Guggenheim is like this - there is no real M&A group (few floating MDs who come in on various deals but no juniors)
i dont have any insight on the two of these but just popping by to say that I can't stress enough how much more enjoyable this job is if you really like the people in your bullpen
I see. The Jefferies culture definitely stood head and shoulders above Guggenheim for me. While there was nothing wrong with Guggenheim's culture, the Jefferies interviewers definitely seemed to care a lot (for example, one person from each of my superday interviews called me and they all sounded extremely hyped to mentor me).
Also Chicago and Charlotte are pretty different cities. Do you have any ties to either or like one over the other?
Not really. I've been to both cities several times and they each have their pros and cons that balance out the cities for me.
I would say Guggenheim, but it sounds like you are already sold on Jefferies and are just looking for validation
Nah, on the contrary besides culture I’m still leaning heavily towards Guggenheim. Even though I don’t really care about MF exit opps, I’ve heard the Guggenheim name is still somewhat better than Jefferies for UMM PE, and Guggenheim is also known for having quite a high A2A retention rate and a culture that’s good for a career in banking. But also that’s just what I’ve heard and I’m definitely open to hearing everyone’s opinion on what either firm/group is like.
Am at Jefferies and just FYI I think Jefferies focuses on A2A as well, people just selectively choose to exit after their 2 years at Jefferies.
Also pointed out culture a lot since I knew if I didn’t point out I liked the culture everyone would just tell me to go Guggenheim because of the reputation of the culture at Jefferies. This way I could get more feedback on non-culture considerations for making my choice.
Can't speak to Gugg but worked at Jefferies TMT before. Jefferies TMT is broken down into 3 groups - Tech (NY+SF), M&T (NY), and Tech-Enabled Services (NY+CLT); you will be joining the tech-enabled services team. Jefferies poached the team from Wells Fargo a few years back. Culture seems good, better than the rest of Jefferies, as you have noticed. Deal flow is good as well, mostly MM sell-sides and some debt financings. Exits are decent as well, with analysts having no problem placing into MM/UMM funds.
Not sure what sectors/industries Guggenheim Chicago covers, but I'd assume is something more industrials heavy. Gugg is very strong in HC and TMT, but not so much in other sectors (have heard that industrials is just pitching galore, but might have changed over the past 2-3 years). In addition, Gugg's business model leans more towards blue-chip coverage, rather than sponsor sell-sides. If you want to exit to MM/UMM, having some closed MM sponsor sell-sides on your resume would be helpful. Also, you already mentioned that you clicked with the Jefferies guys more. Liking the group/people you work with is very important in banking. If the other offer were a top EB or decent BB, things might be different. But as it stands, I'd recommend you go with Jefferies.
Not OP but do you know how the Charlotte ADG group is? Recently got an offer there.
Unfortunately don't have much details on it. ADG is part of Industrials, so if it's giving out sector specific offers, it must be doing pretty well on a standalone basis. Either way, Jefferies is a decent enough platform to not worry about deal flow/exit opps.
Am in Chicago, and have heard good things about the Guggenheim group, regarding their deal flow and initial success. They are a new office there and have grown pretty quickly. Also, I believe they focus on technology in the Chicago office, maybe software in particular, so I'm not sure, but don't think it's really into industrials.
Edit: I stand corrected
OP should definitely reach out to clarify. But Guggenheim Chicago office was started by tech bankers from William Blair, and quick review of Linkedin profile of many of the bankers there have them describing their focus on "technology."
I think a decent portion of the Gugg Chicago office is IT Services. They poached the whole IT Services team from Blair a year or two ago.
Yeah, definitely middle market, so not sure how that will impact your decision.
Jefferies. More momentum if you want to stay as career banker and can also get good pe exit
What do you mean exactly by more momentum. Is it as in the firm itself has been doing well?
If you look at earnings and the league tables, Jefferies is killing it and growing rapidly
Yeah, are PE exits not as attractive for Guggenheim as they are for Jefferies? I was under the impression that, being widely considered an EB, Guggenheim placed well for PE. And granted Gugg Chicago is different than NYC, I would think they would still give you a lot of PE opportunities.
Also notable that Gugg Chicago is a MM office (ex WB bankers), unlike the NY office. During recruiting the Chicago office had an entirely different process branded as "middle market". I'm not sure how this impacts brand recognition when recruiting. Either way, it sounds like you really got along with the Jeffries people you talked to. You shouldn't downplay that importance.
What do you mean that they had a "different process" during recruiting? They just labeled themselves differently, or their actual process was different?
Separate OCR from the NY teams (different recruiter, events, timeline, etc.)
Would recommend Jefferies here given these specific groups. As others have noted, Guggs in Chicago was founded a couple years ago by ex Blair guys and they focus exclusively on the middle market. This would be a different conversation if we were talking about two generalist NYC offers. If you really like the people at Jefferies, that makes this decision a no brainer in my opinion. Not to mention warm weather and low COL in CLT. I'm from Chicago, the winters are truly abysmal.
Incoming at Gugg Chicago for next summer so figured I'd hop in
At Gugg it will be primarily tech and mostly IT services in that group. Additionally, they are focused heavily on sell-side M&A (80%ish of deals). They did poach the WB team. A little bit of professional services as well.
Exits are an unknown from Gugg as we have not seen a full analyst class. With that said I think the Gugg name is strong (will downplay MM) and the office is growing rapidly (0 to 55 bankers in <2 years). Comp is probably somewhat in Gugg's favor but who cares. Proximity to buyside is going to go to Gugg as there are a lot more PE shops in Chicago.
Let me know if you have any questions I can try and answer but honestly I know about as much as you.
Do you know the typical deal sizes for the Chicago group?
I don't, I know about 20% of the deals are >$1B
Great, thanks for detailed info. They really have 55 bankers already in 2 years? Wow, that's pretty rapid growth.
Do you know if your summer is going to be WFH or in office? Also, the OP talked about the culture there -- did people you interviewed with seem like good people?
They haven't made any decisions about summer 2022 yet. The people seemed nice, similar to Blair
I worked with Blair Chicago IT services team while I was in PE (2-3 years ago) and think highly of those guys. They won our Multi-$Bn dual track process.
Are those Blair guys you worked with the same ones who went over to Gugg? Or you're saying you were impressed with the Blair guys who are still at Blair?
Piggybacking off this thread - can anyone chime in on if you are deciding between offers from Jefferies and Guggenheim in NYC for their respective healthcare teams?
More from a long-term perspective, rather than pure PE placements.
Meant to reply to you but ended up commenting on the thread. Look at my reply below.
Probably should make a new thread if you want legit answers from non-interns (especially because your question is NYC and HC specific).
I didn't join HC specifically but I actually chose JEF because the seniors in my interview process spoke at length about how they wanted to groom the next generation of senior bankers. I got the chance to interview at a lot of places but only one of the firms besides JEF mentioned how they wanted to retain talent. I interviewed at a few JEF offices for different groups and this messaging was consistent across everyone I spoke to Associate and up.
I went into this thinking I was going to do banking beyond just my analyst stint (naive I know) and I made sure to push the interviewers on how they'd provide opportunities for me to advance within the firm. I don't want to Doxx myself by saying exactly what they said but I was pretty happy with their answers which led me to take their offer.
I know JEF gets a lot of flack for being a sweatshop but I have to give them credit (in my group anyways) for making an effort to improve WLB and adhering to the policies they setup (according to those I've spoken to working there right now).
I'm someone's who's very pragmatic, so for all I know everything they told me is lip service. I'll probably provide a further update to threads about JEF after I've had some more time in the seat.
Hands down choose Guggenheim
Jefferies has done a great job in terms of PR in last few years (especially among interns on this forum) but has notoriously one of the worst cultures on the street, especially within the healthcare group
Jefferies’s culture used to be horrible but it’s not like that anymore. Not saying it’s the best on the street but there’s been a marked improvement and the management is focused on making it even better. I think OP should do his own due diligence with respect to the culture instead of latching on to WSO’s thinking that the culture at Jefferies is the same as it was 5-7 years ago.
What is this based on? Doubt it is any worse than most other banking groups
JEF Healthcare is the wild west. You'll get good reps in, but probably want to leave after two years.
Don’t know much about Guggenheim‘s healthcare team but know that Jefferies’s healthcare team is one of their best groups and directly competes with BBs and EBs so don’t think of it as an MM group. If you are good you’ll be taken care of and be paid at the EB level as you rise through the ranks in the group. They also just got a new MD from CS in the middle of their brain drain.
Given the fact that you gelled really well with Jefferies, are city agnostic, and that both groups are MM focused (with both groups having some billion dollar deals scattered here and there) and both will offer you similar exits, I think Jefferies is the move here.
Think this should be a city question mainly. Your exits will be splitting hairs from the two places you named and are going to come down to other factors. People treat banks as though the brand is exclusively what matters in recruiting—in reality it’s a lot closer to your undergrad school. Sure, going to Wharton will help get your foot in the door and a few places only hire from there, but ultimately state school kids get great offers all the time. Ultimately who you are as a candidate is going to matter much more than the choice of either of these banks. In this case, it’s like choosing between Northwestern and Cornell, neither are Harvard, but Jeffries and Gugg will get you almost wherever you want to go if you are proactive and network appropriately.
Culture is really hard to read until you start—unless you are getting a scary read from one of the places, I’d just say both are prob going to be about the same and will prob suck. I wouldn’t get your hopes up for an amazing experience at either. Im in a great culture office, but it’s still banking and sucks—that’s why like 85% of analysts leave.
Instead, focus on things outside of work or long term plans—Do you have family, friends, or a long term outlook on the city you wish to be in? I’d argue Chicago there is more opportunity, but frankly opportunity doesn’t matter if you hate the city you are in.
If you know no one in either city and really are just going wherever the world takes you, I’d make the call based on how much you hate Chicago winters versus how much you care about recruiting. Chicago would be better from an opportunity standpoint since it’s a bigger city/ interviews will be easier to plan. The winters do indeed really suck though. Also, optionality is overrated. If it was all that mattered everyone would live in New York.
Helpful -- also interesting that you state you like your bank's culture... but still pretty much hate banking. Kind of an eye-opener.
In your experience, as well as with your friends, does the bank's culture ever transcend the work, in that because of the bank's culture, a banker can actually like their job? Or is your experience that the inherent nature of the job is just too negative, and precludes a positive experience?
There are a few things here that go into why banking isn’t fun, people leave, culture, etc. I’m to busy to provide a really thoughtful response, but there was a good post on it the other day. That said, I would say you can still have a positive experience, while also strongly disliking many parts of the job and not thinking it is sustainable. Generally people say they are glad they did banking, but don’t want to do it again. As in, it was a net positive experience for the things learned etc, but the negatives were great.
I think it’s worth repeating something said earlier—even at shops with great A to A retention 80% of people, or 4 out of 5 still leave. Culture ultimately can’t supersede the job itself, which tends to be tough. Here are a few reasons why:
A) The nature of client services creates a very difficult lifestyle. Things like responsiveness, speed of a transaction, and going the extra mile for a client all culminate in the following realities of banking:
1) you basically always need to be turned on/ obsessively responsive (for analysts they usually say if 15 minutes goes by without you responding to an email you aren’t doing your job). This eventually becomes frustrating/ many just want a break from this expectation even if just for a few years.
2) Unrealistic deadlines create very stressful and unforeseen time crunches. Some of these can be internal, but others can be client imposed. I worked on thanksgiving and Christmas this past year due to a client. That sucks. It also can bring out the worst in people. Further, it can wreck your personal relationships.
3) Most of banking isn’t interesting work ultimately. The first 9 months or so everything is new, but eventually you learn transaction processes and it becomes preparing a new deliverable that involves numerous iterations on materials and checking for errors. I think many undergrads thing banking is all about modeling and making DCF’s and LBO’s when really that’s a pretty small part of the job. I would say a more apt description of banking is: you do a ton of administrative and tedious work in exchange for a high salary and having a silent seat at the table where really interesting things are happening. I think by the end of 2 years, most analysts could learn more leveraging their experience somewhere else. After 2 years, the job can seem more repetitive.
B) Even great culture shops have assholes. I promise anywhere you go, you will work with someone who is miserable and/or bad at their job and they will make you suffer. The industry draws in bad personalities due to how hierarchical it is and status centric.
C) Ultimately the demands of this job are pretty great and leave little time for much else. This isn’t something felt in the first 4 months or so, but by a year in you might recognize you have fewer friends, you are unable to date as much as you would like, you can’t do normal post work activities etc. This makes the scale tip toward being not worth it for many people.
I understand finance is interesting and it’s great that you are going into banking with a positive attitude and I think parts of it are fun, but there are a few parts that really suck. The people I know that stayed ultimately stayed only for the money/ the fact that they were making a ton and eventually the job does get a little easier.
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