*Please note that no client details are ever shared in SBC Scoop or otherwise without complete sign off from client.
Samita engaged with Stacy Blackman knowing that her undergraduate GPA of 45% from a well-known engineering program in India was one of the largest challenges in her application strategy. Samita was only slightly interested in engineering, and as the program continued she started to spend less and less time studying, and more and more time volunteering. The result was an unimpressive GPA, but quite a lot of extracurricular leadership.
Samita’s additional strengths included work experience and recommendations. Samita had an intriguing career at an NGO working across Asia and Europe, where she had progressed from program coordinator to director of development over four years. She was exceptionally skilled at working across a disparate group of people, and had a strong mentor in her manager, an HBS alum, who had encouraged her to seek a top-tier MBA in the United States.
Because she had limited time in her schedule, we advised an online program to boost Samita’s academic profile before she submitted her application.
When we started working with Samita she was preparing for the GMAT and scoring between 660 and 700 on her practice tests. We knew that her low GPA and potentially low GMAT were challenges to overcome, but we were all surprised when Samita scored a 590 on her first GMAT attempt. Samita was incredibly disappointed and frustrated and thought about abandoning her application. We discussed her options: re-evaluating schools, taking the GMAT again or taking the GRE.
Samita decided to schedule another GMAT session in thirty days and focus her time on putting together an exceptionally compelling application. We mined her experience for evidence of her potential and leadership, ensured her recommendations were stellar, and refined her resume and career goals.
Only a few days before the deadlines for HBS, Yale and Stanford Samita took the GMAT again. She was disappointed to increase her score only to 620. She submitted her applications anyway without much faith that her hard work would pay off.
Samita was shocked to be admitted to HBS! We were thrilled to be part of her success, and gratified that her exceptional accomplishments wouldn’t be undermined by her academic challenges.
Mods. Do the right thing. Brady is going to have a breakdown
Shit. HBS just isnt what it used be, am I right?
LOL @ Brady4MVP.
And that's why my dream b-school is Stanford instead ;)
and LOL, poor Brady :(
I am very circumspect of these intl students, especially indians from India applying to b-schools. They lie voraciously on their applications knowing that the background checks are cursory at best and will do anything to get admitted a spot to a top b-school. I knew so many liars at Kellogg (creating fake NGOs, assuming leadership/founding positions of family owned organizations, etc) whose resumes were total BS. Background checks must be far more meticulous for these int'l jokes who cheat to get into a top program only to take the seat of another well qualified US applicant.
I thought the background checks were fairly rigorous? They verify certain extracurricular clubs, leaderships, etc.
Was the lying limited to just international students, or was this true for U.S. students as well?
On the other hand, you have things you want out of life, so rape the hell out of systemic weakness. They'd do the same to you.
And please, open yourself to the possibilites of other schools. The fixation on HBS is unhealthy. Even if you get in, you're building this up in your mind so much that you'd be disappointed by the reality.
DEY TOOK R GERBS!!! DERKER DERR!
First of all, we need to get beyond the whole insecurity thing that most posts on this forum focus on. I guess we all think like this very often - "Am I smart enough ? In order to show that I'm smart enough, I need to pick holes in other people who act smart. Maybe people will assume that I'm smart and that'll also cover up my insecurity. "
To my knowledge, a lot of indians do exaggerate a lot of stuff on their CV. There is no doubt about that. To the Indian applicant, this whole holistic approach of applying to b schools is a bit ludicrous. They're more used to solid hour long entrance exams which are least 100x tougher than SAT,ACT,GMAT or anything else that makes you think you're smart. So they game the system. A lot of them just create NGOs just to get into b school. Most Indians can easily get a score close to 750 if they try. If they do badly, its usually because of a bad verbal score. The OP is just an anomaly. Check out the average GMAT score of an Indian applicant at a top 10 school. I'm sure its going to be much higher than the score for other applicant groups.
Now, to the general public. You can game any system provided you have the determination to do it. I know a lot of Indian applicants who can't even get into a top 10 program in India getting into Wharton/H/Y/P undergrad. Now you can argue the same case: they're different so they get in. But the thing is, barring for a few exceptions, everyone tries to be different and do the one thing thats going to differentiate them in the application process.
You've all heard this about a million times, but let me repeat it. Doing finance/business isn't about intelligence really. Its about being decent with numbers at the high school level, having a strong will, being personable and determined. Unfortunately thats all that required. If Wharton undergrads are super geniuses who would rather be working at CERN because of their high intellectual endowments and hardwork, why do they get into simple finance jobs ?
I guess its the love of lucre that brings us all together. Yet we try to overplay the differences so that we can claim that we're different, well deserving and therefore superior. Freud called this the narcissism of minor differences.
Full disclosure; You'd have guessed it by now, I'm Indian.
I heard most Indians are homosexual
Just because Indians are doing well, you seem to have a problem with it. Better concentrate on your own applications than keeping your eye on others' applications.
Background checks mostly are limited to previous work exp, schools, and recommendations. They will cherry pick certain extra currics and verify that. But note the school is not doing the verification, they outsource it to a bunch of minimal wage retards who don't know the other person on the line is the guy's uncle. They really shoud have students do it or put in some standard op procedures to verify. I bet students can pick out the lies a lot faster than the outsourced companies can. And it much harder to verify some small NGO in India as to its authenticity, unless you probe deep enough to uncover the lie. Mostly was the inernationals, sure there were US students too who lied but I think the international students (read indians) do it 100x more often given the increased difficulty in verification. This is not a valid sample size but I think it's pretty commonly known among students which subgroup cheats/lies the most to get in.
Interesting. I know most b-schools do verification through Kroll, which is supposed to be pretty solid. But I've heard plenty of U.S. applicants exaggerate their extracurricular contributions. My guess though is that adcom at top schools have a good BS radar and can sniff out bullshitters from those who acatually made meaningful contributions.
My best friend is a first-year at kellogg, and he was saying how a lot of "unqualified" people get in through the cracks due to the diversity obsessed admissions process.
wow... so do these international kids lie about work experience and not get caught? They write down fake work experience at a fake company on resume, and just provide their dad's and uncle's phone numbers as contact info of their previous employers to background check companies to verify, and they don't get caught?? Are background check companies really this dumb? They don't check the legitimacy of the employer contact info you provide to them?
I don't think it was the international student that was lying...
In any case, I'm not saying that this Samita benefited from the "Stacy Blackman Magic (TM)" but here's one thing to consider:
A person (male or female) who graduated from an engineering school in India who worked at an NGO in Asia/Europe. For the incoming class next year, it won't be hard to figure out who that is since it's not like there's shitloads of them at HBS. So you have to wonder why the consulting firm would shroud this successful person's story in anonymity. If this person were so strong to have been able to overcome such shitty numbers, then they would've done something extraordinary.
Also, if there was a person who had such shitty numbers (GPA/GMAT), they would've had an exceptional and unique story. The fact that the OP wrote about "Samita's" case using such generic and dry language is a bit incongruous if this person really did amazing things. I mean, with people who really do stand out, it's hard to really hide the fact that they really stand out even if you are trying to keep the person anonymous. Notice how the OP is more excited about being associated with "Samita"'s alleged success in the admissions process than the OP is about Samita herself or her achievements.
Not saying the story is totally bullshit. Just sayin'.
are you accusing stacey of making this applicant up? :/
Pretty unprofessional to call out a competitor like that on an open forum.
Interesting. This discussion turned sideways literally over night.
^^Given your generally good reputation and posting history, I am surprised by your comment. Calling out a post on an internet forum? Harsh. You MBA consultants are a competitive bunch. But I agree somewhat, you do make a couple of good points. I am sure "Samitia's" background could be verified via the net. Somebody look her up.
hahaha. There is so much crap at Kellogg, but as I found at other schools, plenty of crap at the M7 or whatever it's called. Maybe Stanford has the leas tof which due to the small # in class size and thus the lower probability of crap creeping in. I would say at Kellogg a good 35-40% of the students there are stupid. Don't forget a lot of people get in because of their namesake and connections, and many have applied 3-4x. That is why I fundamentally beleive college alma mater is a better reflection of intelligence than b-school, given the # of subjective, non-intelligent factors that enhance people's abilities to get in. Going to Harvard, Stanford, MIT, Caltech, Wharton, etc as an undergrad schools is far more impressive than going to HBS.
Wow, very interesting perspective. thanks for sharing your experience.
That was my suspicion, as well. I have more respect for Wharton undergrads than MBA counterparts. Also, just look at this thread. Clearly, this person wasn't the brightest, but somehow got into HBS, probably due to some bullshit reason. (maybe faked-up NGO from India? lol)
This just indicates that MBA admissions aren't just about one's academic credentials, but one's ability to bullshit well via essays, via rec's, and maybe grossly exaggerate 'leadership' at work, etc.
Seems like a good list of skills you need to have long-term success at the highest levels of business.......
You really think 35-40% of people at kellogg, a top 5 b-school, are downright stupid? That's VERY harsh.
Also, your statement about mba admissions also go true for college as well. Plenty of people at HYPS who got in through legacy, affirmative action, rich parents, sports. I also think getting into HBS is more impressive than getting into harvard undergrad due to the type of work experience and leadership required to get in. The top 10% at HBS is far more impressive than the top 10% at Harvard undergrad.
She has a HBS mentor who probably also wrote her rec letter. That's a big positive. She's a female, another positive. She's from India and is NOT in IT/engineering but works at an non-profit full time, hence she is a rarity in the Indian applicant pool. I bet she had a lot of feel good stories in her essays. The adcoms might have "fallen in love with her story".
Though I must say her 45% average in engineering is REALLY low.
This really caught me off-guard. How can anyone with 45% in grade (I suppose it's lower than 2.5 GPA if converted into U.S. scale) get into HBS?? Just because this person was in some small NGO's in India?
i want to qualify to say that going to a state school doesn't imply you're stupid. Unfort college education is not normalized for all applicatns and the financial burden makes it prohibity to attend these great schools. That said, anyone who thinks they're hot shit because they went to M7 is a fool.
2.5 GPA? Try 1.5 or 1.6. 70% translates to about 2.7 or so. MAYBE she had some solid connections.
I doubt there have been many if any audits of Kroll or other 3rd party verification organizations in terms of the meticulousness of their approach. it's very high level. I think it is harder to pull off fake work, and you cant pull off fake school ebcause they request and verify transcripts. But in terms of exra currics, which these days is many times the deciding factor since that is what defines your comp advanage to get in and gives your resume colour, the verification is not as robust. That is again why I think students at the school should be paid to indepdently verify the applicant's info
i guess how those Indian students get away from fake work experience (fake NGO, etc) is listing them on resume and just providing their families' contact info to the background check company saying that's their previous employer's contact info... Don't background companies check whether the contacts you gave them actually work at the company or not?
If a lot of these international kids lie and can easily get away, the process needs to get more rigorous in terms of background check.
It depends how you define impressive. The top 10% at HBS may be wealthier than the 10% at harvard undergrad, but then again the 10% at HBS are PE/banking/hedge funds who are rich coming in, with plenty of connections, so they of course will be wealtheri given that they're starting off wealthier. I would defiitely argue the top 10% at harvard is smarter than the top 10% at HBS.
If you need empirical proof, just look at Wharton academics. At least when I was there, classes consisted of both MBA and undegrad students. And in most if not all classes, the avg grade in the class for undergrads was higher than the MBAs, so mcuhs o that the pools were separated and curved separately.
Lastly, though I don't like using anomalies, Gates and Zuckerberg never attended HBS.
Extracurriculars are also VERY important in elite college admissions. Also, plenty of PE/HF types don't have connections but instead went to good colleges, did well, got good jobs afterwards, kicked ass, etc. I'm sure some of them had connections, but it's hard to get say blackstone PE>HBS or citadel>HBS without being pretty fucking smart.
Wharton doesn't disclose their grades though, do they? Couldn't that be a reason why their grades are lower?
my brother told me that even if you have a lack luster gpa, you could get into HBS... I guess he was right.
40% gpa with 620 gmat is just shockingly low for a top 10 mba... maybe b-schools care more about one's 'uniqueness', 'leadership potential', or extra curriculuars more than gpa/ gmat?
For a white/asian male in finance or consulting, anything below 3.6 gpa and 700 GMAT will be a death knell for HBS. I don't know a single person in the aforementioned demographic who got into HBS with lower numbers than that.
popping in for a few comments:
there is no comparison between wharton undergrad and wharton mba. the undergrads freaking carry wharton... a close relative attended ug there so i see whartonconnect from time to time ... let's just say the only people you would want to reach out to are the ug's... the mba's are pretty much lazy losers who are trying to relive high school / college (particularly at my uni's business school--big city colleges have their disadvantages lol).
^ ditto for harvard//mit/duke etc ug and mba..
Lol if you think HBS and Wharton MBA are filled with "lazy losers." Are you freaking serious? You should meet actual students at those schools before making such ignorant comments.
In comparison to the undergrads... not in comparison to everyone else.
See yesman's post:
//www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/why-the-fuck-are-these-two-wharton-mbas-…
i have.. listen there are always exceptions.. often you end up meeting the exceptions, and not the general and typical student body.. patrick for instance would not be an average wharton mba... most definitely near the top with regards to achievement...
but then there are about 780 other students who are fairly average
The people I KNOW/ HAVE KNOWN at Wharton were first gen college students or had other good stories. They also did Pre-MBA megafund/MM PE. They are the top performers amongst even the best in IBanking. I have been able to, up to this point, deal with your misconceptions but this is entirely BS. If you honestly think some kid who goes to Wharton UG and gets into a CS/UBS/DB IB job is much more superior than a person who does all the aforementioned work + more + gets a 720+ on their GMAT and has the time to fill out essays while working in PE or any demanding field of work is below standard for UG than you are F**KED in the head
Honestly throw away your computer out of shame troll
I have noticed this somewhat from my personal experience. The business undergrads at USC seemed to be a little bit more intelligent (may not be the best word to describe the difference) than their MBA counterparts. I have a close family member who went to Wharton undergrad and he echoed my observation. I thought we were just being arrogant.
With that being said, MBA students are not "lazy losers". Far from it. MBAs tend to be very accomplished in their respective careers, in contrast to undergrads who have yet to accomplish anything in a real-world context. I am not saying that Wharton MBAs are somehow better than Wharton undergrads or vice-versa, just saying that MBA grads are not "lazy losers" as you put it.
.
i guess it also depends on the major at college...
for instance, I would bet the average student in physics/ CS/ Math at Harvard or MIT is far smarter than an average MBA student at Harvard or Wharton.
Although there are many smart and accomplished people at top MBA programs, no doubt, having a high intelligence is not required for MBA admissions, nor does MBA curriculum demand high-level intelligence from its students.
looks like she fucked her way in spreading those legs. i'll need to see a picture before I make a final conclusion.
i was suspecting this to be the case, lol
It disturbs me how this thread has turned out and how many of you bash on this Indian candidate. Not all of us are math/engineering whiz, and the fact that you guys keep judging how "smart" she is based on her GPA reminds me of the quote "if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing it's stupid". There are different kinds of "smartness", different ways people can contribute, and I don't think her engineering grade would interfere with her ability to do non profit work.
Regarding her admission to HBS. Here's what I guess
-She got a really compelling, coherent and consistent and UNIQUE story. Someone pointed out earlier that she stood out among a pool of male, IIT Indian applicants. If she can present herself as an unorthodox and refreshing candidate, I don't see how it would be so bad that the adcom loved her and decided to offer her a seat at HBS
-In her career goals essay, she probably put non-profit or social entrepreneurship or something along the line and HBS has quite a soft spot for candidates who go that path.I'm pretty sure if she had written something like consulting or hedgefund or tech it would not make her a marketable employee or consistent person.
-It's HBS's decision. And you can't do anythign about it. And given the choice, would you choose to take her path even if you would be guaranteed a seat at HBS? I can't do it. I don't mind volunteering, in fact I think it's important to give back to the society. But if you ask me to have a full career in NGO I would laugh at your face. You guys decide to go the conventional, fiercely competitive path. And you have to really stand out in that pool to go to HBS. It's just a tradeoff and a fact of life!
Some ignorant comments in this thread. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say the omissions about Samita's background from the original post are what got her into HBS.
100% agreed. I want to hear the full story.
stacy forgot to mention that her last name is Mittal
hahaha
As i said before this is just giving people false hope. This is a great marketing tool. How many applications does HBS receive? 8-9K? How many get in with a 620? Maybe 1, 2, 3 tops? You do the math. If you have the money and time to waste take the risk but giving people false hope is what this is.
ECs are usually not the deciding factor in getting in. Adcoms know pretty well that ECs can and are regularly faked/exaggerated and that's why they don't add much value to a profile. The exception is when your ECs are from a recognized organization or can be easily checked - then you'll get some credit. But to argue that adcoms are such hopeless idiots that anyone who puts some bs leadership activity can easily gain advantage is hilarious. The deciding factors for your getting in are your work experience, undergrad, and test scores, in roughly that order - these are the things that can easily be verified and are thus taken as credible signals for potential. That's why Kroll checks only involvement with established institutions/organizations. Nobody bothers to check all unverifiable bs that people claim as leadership because nobody cares that much since talk is cheap, especially when it comes to MBA strivers.
There are always people who get in every year with a low GMAT. IIRC last year the minimum was a 580 or so. IMO HBS does this to give out an impression that they just don't take 3.7/700+ PE/HF/MC/IB/Google/MS/FB type superstar folks and they take "regular" people too. I bet a whole bunch of people with subpar sats would look at this story, shell out thousands of dollars for consultants and apply to HBS only to get rejected. This would increase their applicant pool and drive down their selectivity and thus they appear more 'selective'.
Will employers look at her background and say wtf? Obviously she can't get the "best" jobs in high finance by doing two years at HBS, but would MBB hire such a nontraditional (and from the description, non-academic) candidate?
Will the HBS stamp of approval really boost her prospects that much? Is it really that powerful?
Just out of curiosity - would you also assume the same about a Haas or Stern grad?
620 won't fly at MBB, when push comes to shove.
Not as much as HBS would like you to believe. It's not like all HBS grads are equal and can get any job they send they resume for. Prior experience and education still play a huge role.
How can we assume that she is going to use her HBS degree to get into MBB? She probably wants to use it to rise to the next level in the non-profit world and work at Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation or some such organization and sees HBS degree as a tool to get there. Not EVERYONE wants a HBS degree to get into MBB guys.
and not everyone wants to get into MBB
oh shit, maybe I might have a chance at HBS too, but I definitely need to hide my ethnicity to get a fair chance.
Doesn't MBB require GMAT scores from MBA applicants?
If this person lists her 620 GMAT on resume, I wouldn't be surprised if she is dinged before first round interview anyway, even if she's at HBS.
Not everyone at HBS gets top consulting or top banking gigs. Heck, like 20% of HBS bros in 2009 graduated unemployed. (source: http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2009/2/24/mba-student-hiring-steady-s…)
mba's aren't inherently lazy they act lazy because most consider this a two-year vacation. Sure, the undergrads are all wide-eyed ready to learn and get that job while MBAs are on break after years of working and know that after an MBA there is even more work. so why not act lazy. it's not that students are not intellectually curious but most people are there to get by and get a better job. acting lazy and inherently lazy are two different things
Enrique: "Heck, like 20% of HBS bros in 2009 graduated unemployed. (source: http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2009/2/24/mba-student-hiring-steady-sp...)"
Your source does not match your claim at all. That article a) Was writtein in February, not at graduation. Many students receive offers between Feb and June b) Said that 90% of students at that time had receieved offers
You can't just claim anything, stick a link after it, and expect people to believe it dude.
Dude, try to improve your reading comp skills. go to the bottom of that page and it says:
More and more I have been hearing the case lately that "Indian people lie", and its just part of their culture... An Indian dude told me this, so idk what to believe though.
Is this a logic game? An Indian dude says that all Indian dudes lie - therefore .... Do they lie? Do some of them tell the truth? AAAAAAAHHHHH
Dude! So weird that you quoted this! Just found out yesterday (after months) that said Indian dude is on the run after losing a bunch (60k?) of money that his family and friends lent him to open a wine store. Turns out the dude was -- get this-- lying! It just perpetuates the mystery.
Enrique, thanks for pointing that out - I was reading on a small window (at work) and didn't realize there was a correction below the by-line.
My first point still holds though. There is a big difference between "77% of a flash poll in February had job offers" and "20% of HBS students graduated unemployed." I can't find the career report for the class of 2009 by I imagine a healthy number of students found jobs between February and May.
Maybe.
However, we should keep in mind that most of top gigs (such as consulting, banking, etc) hand out offers to students via OCR. Hence, if these MBA students didn't have any offer by the time of Feb, just 3 months before graduation, it would be safe to assume that none of these students are getting offers from any of serious consulting or finance employers, since they've already missed the boat on getting any offers from OCR at HBS.
Maybe these 23% of offer-less HBS students could network their way into other 'regular' corporate jobs such as marketing, F500 corp finance, etc, but I highly doubt any of them will be able to secure any legit consulting, banking, or other high-finance jobs. Let's face it: the recruiting process of consulting and banking are very structured, and they hire most of their incoming people via OCR or via summer analyst/ associate programs between first and second year of MBA.
Thank God for WSO. Convincing me to go to law school one unjustifiable b-school adcom decision at a time.
I would like to read her whole story and if her story is true, then give her a chance.
I mean there are lots of CEOs who were trolling all the time.
Blankfein or other IB CEOs are "f*cking smart" acording to their track records.
But they have been THE idiots since the financial crisis..
One thing is also sure: whoever chills in a forum, he has ever trolled at least once. We see that clearly.
Most Indians can easily get a score close to 750?..
Don´t exaggerate!
Surely, there may be more Indians who can actually score higher than any other applicants, but you should consider the number of Indian applicants.
Probably,the number of Indian applicants is higher than that of American or European applicants.
There are lots of Koreans who could score higher than 750 points, but they are just 1/10000.
That´s the case for Indians, too.
Getting close to 750 isn't a big deal for someone who is coming from the Indian system, because it tests attributes that Indian engineering students are familiar with - speed, math n all that. Have you taken seen the CAT exam that indian students take to get into b-schools in India ? Take a look at that. The point I'm trying to make is that theres nothing inherently brilliant in being able to get a good score in the GMAT exam. A guy I know not even in a top 20 program in India, still in engineering undergrad, got a 780. I assume high scores such as these are not rare. I'm not trying to say that Indians are inherently better than anyone else. Sorry if thats what it sounded like.
For a site than is supposed to have some of the smartest and highest achieving people in the world, this thread is a disgrace. It is like most of the idiots have flocked here to give their absolutely ridiculous opinion.
First of all, the 45% GPA that is being referred to is actually the 45% grade she got out of a 100 when she graduated. This is how Indian engineering colleges work. Now, you may still think this is shit but you need to recall that at the top Indian engineering colleges, the best students usually pool around the 65% to 70% range during good years. 45% wouldn't put her in the top bunch (which is where students typically are when they get into HBS), but it isn't shit either, especially for someone who was taking part in NGOs and racking up leadership positions instead of spending every spare minute in front of engineering textbooks. The low GPA that the original post refers to is relative to the GPA of other accepted students to HBS, whom are usually in the top 10% of the undergrad class.
45% is nowhere near top 10%. It isn't even considered respectable, you moron. How do I know? I actually have a relative at IIT Delhi. The top students are in the 75-85 range, the good in the 65-74, the mediocre in the 50-64, and the absolutely horrendous in the 0-49, which is where Ms Blackman's client was.
Dude, just because you flunked the ISC (presumably, since you're at Michigan) and couldn't manage more than a 75% in Class 11, doesn't mean others didn't, and that others don't in India's top engineering colleges. Indians at my uni got more than 85% in both 11 and 12, whereas their classmates now at UCLA and Michigan barely managed 65's, and those at Purdue barely got a 55 lol.
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