How do you stop being butthurt and emotional in this business?

Pizz's picture
Rank: King Kong | banana points 1,268

Do any of you cry if your MD/PM yelled at you for screwing up, or coming late, etc.? Or simply feeling irritated by your MD/co workers who speak in a stern voice?

How do you stop taking all of this personally, and realize that all that matters at the end of the day is money?

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Comments (103)

Nov 28, 2018

Step 1: Don't cry about it on WSO. Wtf do you want from us? A pat on the back and a "everything will be ok"? Man up and push forward.

Dec 3, 2018

LOL. Methinks the lady doth protest too much. "Man up" is always a tell, and your knee jerk response is in general is another giveaway. Whatsamatter, you got picked on in school and feel like more of a man telling everyone else what a pussy they are?

OP's question was straightforward: how do you get over slights and focus on work. The answer is simple too: it gets easier with time.

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Dec 4, 2018

The bitter liberal mindset always cracks me up

Dec 4, 2018

Not sure why you'd think politics has anything to do with it, but I'm actually pretty far to the right. Not that it's relevant here. Good luck finding the right message board!

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Dec 5, 2018

Lmfao you're so mad Hillary lost. Get over it!

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Dec 9, 2018
Liberal_Slayer:

Lmfao you're so mad Hillary lost. Get over it!

What the fuck has this got to do with politics?

Dec 4, 2018

Step 2: Remove your tampon.

Step 3: ???

Step 4: Profit.

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Dec 7, 2018

Please remember that women also work in IB; your comment is not very considerate.

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Dec 8, 2018

If you are crying now imagine the next recession and you have a million people shouting at you: your boss, your co-worker, the man in the grocery store, the phone company, everybody in the world will be shouting at you.
I understand some people are more emotional but it is what it is s*** happens.

Dec 7, 2018

Why remove it? It's there for a reason.

Dec 7, 2018

Someone reported my comment for violating the guidelines. It was removed due to the use of "vulgar language".

Dec 7, 2018

No I meant why remove the tampon.

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Dec 7, 2018

It's a joke.

Dec 7, 2018

ok

Dec 8, 2018

Just for the record, it wasn't me. I hope you get to meet strong, capable women in your lifetime. Wish you well.

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Dec 7, 2018

Wow your gf must really open up to you.

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Nov 28, 2018

How old are you? I'm a late-20's dude and it's my boss who needs to come correct.

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Nov 29, 2018

Mid-20s. So your boss is puss?

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Nov 28, 2018

I wouldn't say thinking of it as money at the end of the day is the right way to go about it.

You gotta understand that anyone and everyone makes mistakes. In any case, your solution to remedying the mistake is more important than the mistake it self.
If you properly handle every mistake you make, you'll see that your boss's reaction to future problems will also change.

If you constantly find yourself making mistakes that you can't fix, then something's wrong in your process and you need to reflect on that.

Just putting it off as "money" at the end of the day isn't a positive attitude to go about it and won't help you progress.

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Funniest
Nov 28, 2018

You don't, you just channel your negative emotions into enormous ego and dickish behavior like all proper finance bros.

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Nov 28, 2018

https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/deniro-1515593316.jpg?crop=0.928xw:0.976xh;0.0465xw,0.0135xh&resize=480:*

heister:

Look at all these wannabe richies hating on an expensive salad.

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Nov 29, 2018

You should have done what theaccountingmajor and I did - chosen a less respected major and settled for a life of mediocrity.

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Nov 30, 2018

Too late now :(

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Nov 30, 2018

Crying? Really? Jesus Christ.

Are you female or male?

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Nov 30, 2018

Male, why does this matter?

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Nov 30, 2018

If this is real, this is my thought. The first thought I had was that you were female. Females are more sensitive are more prone to avoid confrontation. This would still be unprofessional from a female but more realistic.
I was the son of a marine, he got pissed at me when I did not yell back at him/just went quiet. You defeat aggression with aggression/confidence.
Can you imagine a wolf in a wolf pack cowering after a confrontation with the alpha? You got to stand your ground, or you will lose it.
Maybe take some MMA/boxing classes, idk.
If the MD is right (as an analyst with minimal experience, they are always right) then you just say: "You are right, I need to improve this, I will do it", if they are wrong, you stand up for yourself, if you have good reasoning, they will respect you more.

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Dec 2, 2018

Totally agree with the mma and kickboxing idea.

Re aggression countering aggression - not sure how well this works in professional environment. Last time I got aggressive and defended myself against the boss' insulting and unreasonable assessment I got fired. And that was me holding back and being self defensive not forwardly aggressive. In a professional setting there is a pretty big imbalance of power. And for sure I would have loved to take him outside and settle it like men but that option too is quite limited. Probably could be considered an illegal threat

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Dec 8, 2018

So I agree with this - I have dealt with a person who needlessly overdramatizes the smallest insignificant details and is extremely bullheaded even when they are clearly wrong. Even to the point of applying your feedback and pretending like they were still correct the whole time.

However, I have found that when you lay out your argument clearly and concretely in why they are wrong, they will respect your input to a higher degree the next time. Eventually through this feedback cycle they learn to respect your input and work more going forward. Fighting when you have high conviction that you are right will make them respect you more and question you less harshly even when you messed up.

Bending over backwards and internalizing everything only makes them feel like they can control you and walk over you even further.

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Dec 2, 2018

I don't think the wolf pack example is great. Wolves aren't aggressive against the alpha unless they're trying to take his place. So unless you think this guy can take his MD's spot through a shouting match that might not be the best advice.

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Dec 7, 2018
DickFuld:

Crying? Really? Jesus Christ.

Are you female or male?

Wow, there's a lot more pussies on this forum than I would have guessed.

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Dec 7, 2018

So if your're boss yelled at you, you wouldn't feel a thing, right tough guy?

Dec 7, 2018
Pizz:

So if your're boss yelled at you, you wouldn't feel a thing, right tough guy?

I wouldn't cry, I know that.

Dec 7, 2018

It's not that everyone here is soft, it's that they know a fake tough guy when they see one. Usually some idiot going around saying cliche bullshit like "remove your tampon" and "man up" and calling everyone a pussy.

Telltale sign of a guy who was a dweeb growing up and wants to make up for it as an adult. Probably while simultaneously scrambling to end his virginity before he hits 30.

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Dec 7, 2018
PteroGonzalez:

It's not that everyone here is soft, it's that they know a fake tough guy when they see one. Usually some idiot going around saying cliche bullshit like "remove your tampon" and "man up" and calling everyone a pussy.

Telltale sign of a guy who was a dweeb growing up and wants to make up for it as an adult. Probably while simultaneously scrambling to end his virginity before he hits 30.

Arm chair psychologist here....

I don't really see guys crying at work.....not sure where you work. I've seen women do it, but not all that often.

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Dec 7, 2018

You don't see guys crying at work because they do when they go to sleep that night

Dec 7, 2018
Pizz:

You don't see guys crying at work because they do when they go to sleep that night

How would you know? This seems unlikely to me....

Dec 8, 2018

The fact that analysts even have time to sleep shows what a nation of pussies we have become. God help us.

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Dec 10, 2018

I think you have a distorted view of the world

Dec 11, 2018

God willing! Certainly wouldn't want an average view of the world.

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Nov 30, 2018

Become calloused. This isn't sarcasm, this is my real opinion.

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Dec 2, 2018

Absolutely.
David Goggins style.
Most people are fucking weak.

My biggest hurdle is not actually getting in the boss' face and telling him what I think.
I've gotten in trouble on several occasions for mad-dogging/mean-mugging superiors.

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Dec 2, 2018

David Goggins is legit. Amazing how he just says, "I'm not going to be lazy and fat anymore" and just gets the f--- after it.

OP, read "Breaking BUD/S". It is a great book on mental toughness. Although it's based on Basic Underwater Demolition SEAL training (BUD/S aka Navy SEAL training) you can apply the lessons everywhere else.

Dec 3, 2018
earthwalker7:

I've gotten in trouble on several occasions for mad-dogging/mean-mugging superiors.

This mental image is hilarious

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Nov 30, 2018

Develop a complex. Everyone else is an idiot and they don't have strong self-control, allowing themselves to blurt out nasty responses when things don't go their way. You gotta rationalize a bit.

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Dec 2, 2018

I used to work it out on the heavy bag, and pretend that was the boss.
Motivating as fuck.
I'd beat it till there was blood on it (mine) and it felt so damn good.

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Dec 6, 2018

Would have been cooler if you had made the bag bleed.

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Dec 2, 2018

Are you me?

Nov 30, 2018

you are currently immature....how do you fix that? grow up.

just google it...you're welcome

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Nov 30, 2018

"screwing up" ??
"coming in late" ??

you deserve to get fired. you are lucky the worst that happens is to get yelled at.

if you think otherwise...then yes, you are very immature.

how do you fix? stop screwing up...stop coming in late. if you can't manage those 2 things, then you really don't deserve the job in the 1st place.

just google it...you're welcome

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Dec 8, 2018

exactly!

Nov 30, 2018

If you are actually screwing up and/or showing up late, then yes, you should be taking it personally as in your productivity and your attendance are drawing negative attention to you.

We all have bad days where we might be more strained, stressed, sleep-deprived, pissed about something not remotely work-related, and sure, it can be upsetting if someone who is having their own bad day somehow lashes out at us... but that's a case where you did nothing wrong, you were simply collateral damage and whoever was nearby was going to get hit with that person's personal shit-gun.

Otherwise, if it's your direct behavior that's ticking off your higher-ups, then the onus is on you to improve said behavior and there'll be no reason for you to get yelled at.

And it shouldn't come down to "it's all about the Benjamins"... it should come down to doing the job well and not standing out for negative issues/being a time-suck/etc.

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Dec 2, 2018

Look, it's unprofesssional to cry, ever. It's actually unprofessional to display emotions other than regret/frustration (related to business issues affecting the whole firm) or contentness/happiness (business + personal life).

That's the rule. I'm not telling you this is healthy or ideal, but such is life in high finance.

That said, your core issue seems (likely) to be that you feel personally attacked when corrected. This is normal - most people who self-select into IB are very self-centered and have an inflated sense of self-worth. The thing that helped me (may not help you tho!) is to realize that people (who are VPs or older) in high finance, spend much of their day coaching CEO/CFOs , so this is effectively free life coaching (which your non-banking/consulting peers will pay out the ass for later in life)..The intracies of a model don't matter - engaging with clients/senior management in a thoughtful way is literally the whole game.

TLDR: If they're off base, ignore them. If they're right and you're butthurt, recognize that this is literally all the valuable development you signed up for.

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Dec 2, 2018

Am I the only one who supports crying in the toilet if you do believe it can help release your emotions? I've only cried in the office once and I was a 20 yo intern. Now if you punch me real hard (I'm a girl), I still wouldn't cry but I do believe crying is a necessary act of release of emotions.

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Dec 2, 2018

No, that's totally fair - definitely release your emotions however works for you in private. Just don't let them see you cry.

Dec 6, 2018
returntoforever:

Am I the only one who supports crying in the toilet if you do believe it can help release your emotions? I've only cried in the office once and I was a 20 yo intern. Now if you punch me real hard (I'm a girl), I still wouldn't cry but I do believe crying is a necessary act of release of emotions.

I heard this is typical in "The Office (US)"

Dec 2, 2018

You need to detach your emotions from what they're saying. Also if you get punched in the head often enough you just get numb to it.

Dec 2, 2018

You have to detach emotions from your decisions anyway. Make calculated long term oriented decisions. By this I mean that you have to consider your alternatives, what is the best for your career. If you can move easily elsewhere, and your workplace is abusive, then consider it. If you are getting monetary or career value, then suck it up. Improve your ability and behavior, and do your best. Save up f u money.

There were jobs I quit when I got pissed, and regret it. And there was definitely a job recently where I should have told the boss to step back and literally fuck his own face (shout out to Tropic Thunder).

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Dec 2, 2018

Did you have my old boss? Haha. I had a superior who used to publicly yell at me on a dead-ass quiet floor for everyone to hear and it fucking sucks. Sometimes it's just a reflection that my boss was in a bad mood and took it out on me despite it being out of my control. This is straight up TOXIC behavior. A boss with bad EQ can screw you up as a person and your career if you're not careful.

Psychologically, "manning up" is why kids have died in this industry without looking for help. Others internalize the hurt and become assholes themselves, thus completing the Wall Street culture cycle.

People can't help how they feel when something external is put upon them. We're fucking HUMANS, remember? Unfortunately the answer to your problem isn't easy. Sometimes your boss could be right to yell, sometimes most definitely not. The key is to make positive/constructive conclusions about your attitude with it and sticking by it whenever the negative thoughts/emotions come back. It's not the immediate negative feeling that is damaging but the haunting of it: the re-emergence of those negative feelings whenever you think back to that moment or look at your boss <- this is how negativity begins to stick into you as a person.

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Dec 2, 2018

If my boss is yelling at me publicly and if it's totally unnecessary, my colleagues will most likely be on my side. We often talk about our bosses' behaviour and bosses who can't control their emotions will more often than not get a very bad rep. No one would want to work under terrible bosses. And in my experience, people often quit because of that.

Dec 2, 2018

When I was an intern, I worked alongside the senior manager. I was the only one who did everything for him (tiny company). He was the typical micro manager who complained about every little thing. I mean, literally every bloody thing can set him off. I shed tear in front of him once, only because i was disappointed in myself and that I literally felt like the worst employee in the world. I learned from it and I dont sweat those things anymore.

You just need to make sure you learn from your mistakes, know your boss and what set them off, if it's you or if they are just stressed, after a while, you are affected by it less and less. If your boss is geniunely making your life miserable tho, consider quitting.

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Dec 2, 2018

Its okay to feel sad. You have to accept your feelings first. If you keep running away from them they will come back stronger. Try developing some new coping mechanisms - download the app Headspace and do meditation for 10 minutes every day - it can do wonders. Try writing your feelings out in a journal or going to the gym like others have suggested. I am sending you a flying hug. You are a brave, strong person and you will get through this.

I don't know your boss - but maybe he or she gets pleasure out of making you feel bad. He or she knows you will react this way - so the best revenge is to not give them that pleasure and not react. Soon maybe it will be less fun for them and they will stop.

Also be careful who you share your feelings with - many people can be draining and unsupportive. (You can see that by some of the mean comments on this thread.) You have to learn to keep such things to a small close group of friends and family. Perhaps reach out to your old friends or your parents.

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Dec 2, 2018

My ex MD was an insane, sadistic bitch (I can say this because I'm a woman). She'd yell at people for no apparent reason, give them crazy instructions just to see them fail, explode if she'd ever get corrected, and in a meeting she'd isolate and belittle any random team member whenever some nasty comment would fly into her crazy head. I felt like shit in my first couple of months there, but kept a low profile, trying to be as unseen as possible after watching my colleagues getting double whammy of abuse after she'd catch them crying in the corner. After a while my quietness turned to anger, and I'd explode at her in return, but that too didn't make things better. Fast forward, moral of the story, I learned to see the big picture, see that this woman was clearly sick from something beyond my perception, and totally irrelevant for my "life" in the long run. Unless knifing me in a dark alley one day lol, she was pretty insignificant. Every time I heard her yell I'd count all the things I had beyond her, like what I had to look forward to when I'd leave the office, etc. And that's the attitude I've maintained alongside my bosses ever since the experience. I highly recommend it.

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Dec 3, 2018

I don't know why but this reminds me of my (no longer) friend. She loves to yell about every little thing. And she'd yell at anyone, even strangers on the street. She thinks she has to yell because in her mind, she's the one who holds everything together both at home and at work. She thinks people just do fuck all all day and nobody knows shit. In fact she's the one who regularly misses chores that she was meant to do, gets drunk on Thursday nights and use Fridays to recover and does fuck all, get a very mediocre rating at work etc.

I, along with 90% of the people she knew, are no longer friends with her cos I ain't got no busniz with crazy hoe like this.

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Dec 2, 2018

Massive amounts of Juuling and Tinder to assuage any butthurt

My soul is highly leveraged

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Dec 2, 2018

I always just reply "Sounds good!" even if it doesn't sound good

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Dec 5, 2018

username - 10/10
commentary - 11/10

please post more

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Dec 6, 2018

Corporate culture is 90% learning to replace "fuck you" with "ok, great!"

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Dec 3, 2018

What I've found to be successful (from my perspective), is having a direct conversation with your PM/MD.

I've definitely been on the receiving end of sternness/irritation, but I'm always sure to be as direct as possible and address it early. For example, a couple months back, I felt a shift in my PM's attitude towards me (seemingly more stern/irritated with me), and I set up 20 minutes in the day to catch up with him. I straight up asked him "Have I done something to piss you off recently? Because I feel like lately you've been irritated with me and I'm trying to figure out what I do to change that dynamic".

My PM had an immediate change in his demeanor, and since then, it's been all good.

Crying/feeling irritated does nothing to help your situation except prolong a cycle of negativity. Generally speaking, both the sell-side and buy-side require a level of mental fortitude. Always be direct when possible, and if your situation doesn't change, leave. To me, money doesn't justify a shitty work experience. Find a place that's more conducive to your mental health (something that is very overlooked in our industry).

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Dec 3, 2018

Nice. Seems you've resolved the matter well
Sometimes you just have to deal with problems head-on.

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Dec 5, 2018

Worked under a crazy MD (as many people have). It's been recommended by others, but to reiterate, ignore and pretend like everything is dandy. In my experience, the person will begin to respect your ability to control emotions and focus on the task at hand. Not to mention, if you're being publicly berated and just act chill then your peers will notice, undoubtedly making the dick MD look like an idiot / psycho. It's not an easy skill to develop, but will be useful for your entire career.

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Dec 5, 2018

Define, "stern voice." If it's literally just that, toughen up. I don't think you'd do well in the military, lol. That all said, some leaders are just toxic and best avoided. But in your case, I think toughen up is the right answer.

How I passed all the CFA Program exams: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DUdnYkojtk&t=37s

Dec 5, 2018

Didn't cry, but I can relate to the OP, just thinking of when I started my first job in IB. It could also be that you have insecurity issues whether you realize it or not.
You think that their yelling at you is reflective of their perception of you, a worthless piece of shit. But then you subconsciously accept it, feel vulnerable and start thinking that you are failing in life, career or whatever is important to your self-esteem, hence the need to cry. Don't give in to their bullying. At the end of the day, this is just another job and you will still be fine after all, even if you get fired. You are not worthless, and once you leave your job, your boss is just another random old man on the street.
Now, if you consistently arrive late or repeat the same mistakes, go fucking fix that.

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Dec 5, 2018

Short answer: no. Because I work in the back office. I make 130/year and work 40 hours/week. We all go home at 5pm. Theres nothing to complain about. Stop being a bitch.

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Most Helpful
Dec 5, 2018

Honest question from a guy who did ok on the sellside but thrived on the buyside: are you hurting the business or is your boss just being an asshole? I understand the question can be a little subjective, but it's worth asking.

There are a lot of Type-A personalities out there, especially in banking and trading.

You, like me, are a Type-B personality. You're smart. You're intuitive. You think about things too much. You're a minority on Wall Street. And you're a little too sensitive for the trading floor. Sometimes you make dumb mistakes that are easy to spot because you're not paying attention-- your mind is on trickier business problems. But you also catch mistakes that require a lot of smarts to catch, and most people on your team frankly can't.

This doesn't mean you're not awesome. Or that you're indecisive or weak. Type A athletes play football; Type B athletes race motorcycles and cave dive. It just means that while everyone else is thinking in straight lines and right angles, you're thinking in curves. And it's a lot of work to add a bunch of curves together to form straight lines and right angles. And is it even necessary? Is that what the business really needs? Or is it merely what your boss needs because he's not smart enough to figure it out?

What I can tell you is that there are honestly a lot of successful people on the buyside who are like you, especially in quant finance. Being able to catch dumb mistakes is important-- you need a lot of that on every team, but it's also a commoditized skill that the majority of wall street people have. Catching the hard, tricky mistakes, and asking good, valuable questions that other people aren't asking? That's tough. In systematic strategies, there's often a lot more value in that, because nobody else is trying to arb it.

I've been where you've been. You need to figure out if the problem is you, or if the problem is your boss and your job. Knowing where I think you're coming from, you probably think the problem is you, but there's a surprisingly good chance you're wrong. In fact I'm willing to bet it's at least as good as-- maybe better than 50/50 that you're wrong. That you're a quiet, sensitive, saint-- an imperfect saint who sometimes fucks up the easy stuff-- and that your sellside boss is an inadvertent dumbshit asshole.

The sellside has to be right 99.9% of the time. Pitchbooks have to be perfect. If you screw up a bid or ask, you'll get your face ripped off. The buyside has to be right 53% of the time, but that 3% is usually too complicated for the average person on the sellside to figure out. And if you can get to the point where 95% of that 3% gets properly executed upon, and the other 5% is either noise or slightly negative but not horribly so, you're doing just fine.

Here's one last thing. If you can succeed in spite of all of the perceived naysaying in this thread, it's really going to leave some of these people pissed and confused. It will drive them crazy trying to figure out how you managed to pull it off, and some of them will never be able to figure it out, really.

But that's ok. While a lot of the Type-A guys are off destroying value somewhere, you're building your third or fourth 2-Sharpe or even 3-Sharpe alpha and it's going into Bridgewater's or RennTech's signature fund. And there are a bunch of other guys there just like you-- who could barely cut it on the sellside but have the intuition to kill it on the buyside, and you can play as a team.

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Dec 6, 2018

I'm extremely tempted to become a career coach and potentially take this and other similar situations on contingency. A typical career coach charging an hourly fee is incentivized to tell people what they want to hear. Someone working on contingency-- where I'm forced to bet that you'll land on the buyside and make it through your 2nd year or earn $0-- isn't. And if you're really the fuckup you think you are, utility curves bend, and you'll need the money more than if you're buyside material.

And if I do this there's going to be an interview process. I will want to see three examples of situations where you've fucked up, and three situations you're proud of. And the funny thing is that for the genuine Type B personalities out there-- the (probably mostly) girls, straight guys, and the gay guys like me, they're going to give me an unbiased sample of these situations, because an honest-to-goodness, genuine answer is the most valuable thing I can give them in the whole process. These people will want to give me all of the reasons they're not buyside material, and they will want to see if that's a deterrent to my time (as an indirect manager to rank-and-file quants on the buyside) or if my response is "pishposh". And if it's on contingency... they know they're going to get a truly honest answer. If you're worth my time, you're probably worth a PM's or senior researcher's time, and you're probably worth a seat on some team somewhere.

But honestly I think 1/3-2/3 of sellside desk strats, desk quants-- probably traders and investment bankers too-- who've made it a couple years and think they're fuckups are probably better-than-average buyside material. Especially the intuitive or sensitive folks.

The Type-A guys who have been gunning for the buyside since high school don't need me (and if anything a guy like me pisses them off, especially if they stay on the sellside). But I want the Type-B guys and ladies to take heart. It gets better, and, most importantly, (even though you don't think you can) you can do this.

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Dec 8, 2018

Very insightful posts and super helpful. Thanks

Dec 6, 2018

Don't take anything personally at work, ever. Evaluate every decision based on what can further your chances of promotion/raise/responsibility. Usually this means stroking an asshole's ego and agreeing with their rant.

Dec 6, 2018

Everyone is having waaay too much Stockholm syndrome here. OP needs to get out from under this godawful system. OP needs to make it to the buyside.

If you can demonstrate you can originate, build, and successfully release a Sharpe 2 alpha, because you think differently than everyone on the sellside, people on the buyside will stop telling you how to do your job and let you just sorta do your thing. I suspect it's the same way for traditional researchers on some level, although the attribution is a little nuttier. In the quant space, we will ask you smart questions that are fair. (IE what's the t-stat, etc, etc)

News flash to sellside folks: when we meet with sellside quant researchers, we don't give a shit if there's a typo in the presentation book. We really don't. There are typos in our presentations. Be nice to yourselves and, yes, try to catch errors, but don't kill yourself. Fear, insecurity, and dumb bosses are the enemies of good ideas.

What we care about is if your results are reproducible, how high-quality your idea is, and whether your idea can make money ex-post. But mostly, how high-quality your idea is.

From our perspective, in systematic strategies, it's better to show up to a hedge fund with your shirt on backwards, a dead bird in your hair, a horribly misspelled presentation, and a really high quality idea that we can trade on than it is to show up with a highly polished presentation about how momentum factors in Barra have done over the past twelve months.

You know obviously we respect the sales guy-- we need good execution and a high quality sales guy can kinda act as our broker's COO on that front. And he is going to feel embarrassed if you're not polished. But we go to these meetings for the researcher, and really, to get their ideas-- we personally care a lot more about the idea than a perfect presentation. And for the guy from Quant Research, it's OK to be a James Altucher. The guys sitting on the other side of the table are James Altuchers. Just, come with some high quality ideas.

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Dec 6, 2018

Have you considered like I don't know not fucking up all the time? I don't think being abusive is a good management style but seriously. Being late? You're an adult. Fucking figure out how to get to work on time.

Edit: IP's right I'm being too harsh. If you deal with people screaming and yelling at you over trivial pointless shit just remember that they're the ones with the problem, not you. If they treat you this way chances are they treat everyone this way. Always remember that everyone reaps what they sow eventually. Karma's a bitch.

Dec 6, 2018
thurnis haley:

Have you considered like I don't know not fucking up all the time? I don't think being abusive is a good management style but seriously. Being late? You're an adult. Fucking figure out how to get to work on time.

There's a way to make a point without being nasty to someone who admittedly gets "butthurt". And I coulda sworn that when you-- yes, you specifically-- were an undergrad who needed help, I was doing it nicely.

FWIW, the average buyside quant shows up to work sometime between 9:30 and 10:30. Unless there's a meeting, earlier. Then they show up 5 minutes late for it lol. Again, these are the kinds of people coming up with the Sharpe 3 portfolios producing nine or ten figures of returns per year at RennTech, DE Shaw, etc. A few of them are even borderline nonverbal autistic and would NEVER survive ANYWHERE on the sellside.

Imagine James Altucher, the geeky talking head who shows up on CNBC all the time. Now imagine him in Equity Sales. Or even as the desk developer for the team. Or even in IT. That is what your average guy at 2Sigma or RennTech is like. At WorldQuant, Citadel, Bridgewater, etc the quants are a little more high-functioning on the autism spectrum, but none of us would thrive on the sellside.

If you want me to agree that showing up on time is a vital job skill that OP lacks, and that he needs to fix it, I'll agree with you on that. If you want me to judge... eh??? We've all got our flaws.

    • 2
Dec 6, 2018
IlliniProgrammer:
thurnis haley:

Have you considered like I don't know not fucking up all the time? I don't think being abusive is a good management style but seriously. Being late? You're an adult. Fucking figure out how to get to work on time.

There's a way to make a point without being nasty to someone who admittedly gets "butthurt". And I coulda sworn that when you-- yes, you specifically-- were an undergrad who needed help, I was doing it nicely.

FWIW, the average buyside quant shows up to work sometime between 9:30 and 10:30. Unless there's a meeting, earlier. Then they show up 5 minutes late for it lol. Again, these are the kinds of people coming up with the Sharpe 3 portfolios producing nine or ten figures of returns per year at RennTech, DE Shaw, etc. A few of them are even borderline nonverbal autistic and would NEVER survive ANYWHERE on the sellside.

Imagine James Altucher, the geeky talking head who shows up on CNBC all the time. Now imagine him in Equity Sales. Or even as the desk developer for the team. Or even in IT. That is what your average guy at 2Sigma or RennTech is like. At WorldQuant, Citadel, Bridgewater, etc the quants are a little more high-functioning on the autism spectrum, but none of us would thrive on the sellside.

If you want me to agree that showing up on time is a vital job skill that OP lacks, and that he needs to fix it, I'll agree with you on that. If you want me to judge... eh??? We've all got our flaws.

That's true; I'm harsher than necessary on the internet. I don't disagree with anything you said at all really. Showing up on time really depends on what your boss wants. At my old firm I could show up anywhere from 9:30-10 and nobody cared. At my new firm my boss wants me to notify everyone if I'm not gonna be at my desk at 9. I learned this by walking in at 9:05 once. Not surprisingly as an intense night owl I much prefer the former situation than the latter. My point more is that depending on the work situation we may not have a choice in the matter.

Granted if someone actually blows up at me for being late (or for any reason) I'm probably out the door pretty soon. But OP may be a repeat offender. We don't know the details. Guess I was reading too much into it.

    • 4
Dec 7, 2018

This OP is probably trolling. Who goes on a message board full of republican ass holes and asks how to stop crying at work?

    • 1
Dec 7, 2018

Stop complaining, keep crying or quit. If you can't handle someone speaking in a stern voice you probably don't belong in the industry. What are you going to do when it's a client that raises their voice, because it does happen. Cry then, you'll probably get fired.

    • 1
Dec 7, 2018

Don't fuck up and there won't be anything to cry about. If you can't take the heat they'll find a chef who can.

Dec 7, 2018

This really affected me when I first started. A 2nd year gave told me that eventually you develop a professional apathy, and he couldn't be more right. You realize they yell at you and 2 seconds later they don't remember it, they don't care. Eventually, you will realize this and not care either.

    • 2
Dec 8, 2018
Stag42:

This really affected me when I first started. A 2nd year gave told me that eventually you develop a professional apathy, and he couldn't be more right. You realize they yell at you and 2 seconds later they don't remember it, they don't care. Eventually, you will realize this and not care either.

This. This too.

Dec 8, 2018

Apologize for the issue and take ownership. If given the opportunity to explain why you were late do so in a respectful manner. If it was a technical mistake take note as too what you did wrong. Then move on with your day.

Dec 8, 2018

WTF I see a lot of just suck it up bro comments here. The real answer is to GTFO and move to another job. Toxic managers will make your life hell and it's not worth it working for them.

I think smart people know not to yell at juniors or fuck with people because no man is an island and if you act like an asshole people FUCKING REMEMBER that shit and word gets around fast. Piss people off enough and they'll hold a life-long grudge and you'll never get their business. The business world can be really small and all it takes is one bad review to sway someone. Also, if you ever feel an MD has truly crossed the line with unacceptable behavior and you figure there's no point in cultivating that relationship, after you've left the firm, don't hesitate to send an email to the company CEO. Emails like that gets read and even if you don't see immediate consequences it does get "filed away" for a rainy day. Your MDs are not invulnerable, they are employees who work for other employees.

I've only heard stories of MDs freaking out and yelling at people because most MDs know that kind of behavior hurts their career. I've never seen an MD or VP make someone cry and if they did they'd be marked with a big target on their back. You may not see it but management investors don't like unstable twats who freak the fuck out. They want cool, collected unemotional leaders at the end of the day.

When I was younger I used to internalize all the negative comments I got and it made me feel like crap. Honestly, no one has the right to disrespect you. No one should be put on top of a pedestal no matter how successful they are. I've had people dislike me for whatever reason and there was literally nothing I could do to appease them. It's fool's errand to try to convince someone to like you. Maybe you can take some mindfulness classes or something but it's just something I got more comfortable with over time.

For now just wear a shit eating grin on your face until you can GTFO.

    • 2
Dec 9, 2018
cauliflowerfractal:

WTF I see a lot of just suck it up bro comments here. The real answer is to GTFO and move to another job. Toxic managers will make your life hell and it's not worth it working for them.

I think smart people know not to yell at juniors or fuck with people because no man is an island and if you act like an asshole people FUCKING REMEMBER that shit and word gets around fast. Piss people off enough and they'll hold a life-long grudge and you'll never get their business. The business world can be really small and all it takes is one bad review to sway someone. Also, if you ever feel an MD has truly crossed the line with unacceptable behavior and you figure there's no point in cultivating that relationship, after you've left the firm, don't hesitate to send an email to the company CEO. Emails like that gets read and even if you don't see immediate consequences it does get "filed away" for a rainy day. Your MDs are not invulnerable, they are employees who work for other employees.

I've only heard stories of MDs freaking out and yelling at people because most MDs know that kind of behavior hurts their career. I've never seen an MD or VP make someone cry and if they did they'd be marked with a big target on their back. You may not see it but management investors don't like unstable twats who freak the fuck out. They want cool, collected unemotional leaders at the end of the day.

When I was younger I used to internalize all the negative comments I got and it made me feel like crap. Honestly, no one has the right to disrespect you. No one should be put on top of a pedestal no matter how successful they are. I've had people dislike me for whatever reason and there was literally nothing I could do to appease them. It's fool's errand to try to convince someone to like you. Maybe you can take some mindfulness classes or something but it's just something I got more comfortable with over time.

For now just wear a shit eating grin on your face until you can GTFO.

Agreed. People don't know their worth here and just suck it up to the toxic corporate culture. GTFO and move to a better role that makes you feel 'safe' if you don't like the environment.

Dec 9, 2018

Crying is ok, not expressing your emotions is toxic and has damaging long term effects on your mental health. Do not scream back and just realize that the MD in question has problems with his temper/character and it has nothing to do with you. If you have to cry, do it in the bathroom, release the emotions and use some eye drops afterwards, trust me, it helps. Use any feedback as an opportunity to improve. It just sucks that your superior is unable to be reasonable about it. Also read up on Meditations by Marcus Aurelius. The book helped me not to take as many things personally and be able to distance myself mentally from situations just like that.

    • 1
Dec 9, 2018

If you cry, you shouldn't even be allowed in this business. If you can't take shit from other people, then you had better go live on Mars right now, because no matter what job you have, there will always be people like that. So get over it, and move to another job if you really have to.

EndTheSnowflakeEra

GunningForGroupHead

    • 1
Dec 10, 2018

So I shouldn't be allowed in this business because I'm a HUMAN

Dec 11, 2018

Just proves my point further

GunningForGroupHead

Dec 11, 2018
Pizz:

So I shouldn't be allowed in this business because I'm a HUMAN

Watching you deal with these people on some sort of empathetic level is like watching a human try and reason with an angry gorilla. The personalities in this thread are too stupid to get it. If anything, they lack EQ. If this were a movie, it would almost be funny, but you're stuck in the middle of it, and that sucks.

You are a creature in the wrong ecosystem. A human in the jungle, far from civilization, surrounded by the lions and various forest creatures. Poorly adapted.

But your personality has the ability to do something the Type-A personality can't. The ability to change the ecosystem, how it works. You're thoughtful. Intuitive. You see things these guys can't. A human being is going to get eaten by a tiger or beaten to death by a gorilla if all he has is his bare hands in the jungle, but he can convert 40 acres of rainforest into productive cropland if he shows up with the right tools.

Get yourself back to civilization, take what you've learned, and come back with a tractor and some chainsaws. Maybe a shotgun too, lol. Take what you've learned here, and use that to replace the tigers and gorillas with something more productive, more efficient-- something better.

I'm a quant. I've got a couple chainsaws and a tractor; I just need to know where the fertile land is. So let's stay in touch. If you can give me some insight about how guys like this think; how they compete and earn money, I think we can make some money driving the gorillas further back into the forest.

I'll bet you one dollar we can figure out a way to make some money at the gorillas' expense.

    • 1
Dec 11, 2018
IlliniProgrammer:
Pizz:

So I shouldn't be allowed in this business because I'm a HUMAN

Watching you deal with these people on some sort of empathetic level is like watching a human try and reason with an angry gorilla. The personalities in this thread are too stupid to get it. If anything, they lack EQ. If this were a movie, it would almost be funny, but you're stuck in the middle of it, and that sucks.

You are a creature in the wrong ecosystem. A human in the jungle, far from civilization, surrounded by the lions and various forest creatures. Poorly adapted.

But your personality has the ability to do something the Type-A personality can't. The ability to change the ecosystem, how it works. You're thoughtful. Intuitive. You see things these guys can't. A human being is going to get eaten by a tiger or beaten to death by a gorilla if all he has is his bare hands in the jungle, but he can convert 40 acres of rainforest into productive cropland if he shows up with the right tools.

Get yourself back to civilization, take what you've learned, and come back with a tractor and some chainsaws. Maybe a shotgun too, lol. Take what you've learned here, and use that to replace the tigers and gorillas with something more productive, more efficient-- something better.

I'm a quant. I've got a couple chainsaws and a tractor; I just need to know where the fertile land is. So let's stay in touch. If you can give me some insight about how guys like this think; how they compete and earn money, I think we can make some money driving the gorillas further back into the forest.

I'll bet you one dollar we can figure out a way to make some money at the gorillas' expense.

No matter what, the type A's will always be the ones that really make things happen. How many people do see with a type B personality in the front office? Not many. And number two, would we be working in finance if we were stupid? I don't think so. Number three, yes we do lack EQ, and we pride ourselves on it, because like I said, that is how you survive in this world, especially in the world of finance. I'll bet you a hundred dollars you can't. Why do you work in finance, especially when you sound like one of those Occupy Wall Street people? Just get over it, and work in another field guys. You have to know that people don't care about you in this world, no one really cares about you. That's the problem with so many college students today, they think that once they go out into the world, they will be coddled. Wrong.

GunningForGroupHead

Dec 11, 2018
nok15105:

No matter what, the type A's will always be the ones that really make things happen. How many people do see with a type B personality in the front office? Not many. And number two, would we be working in finance if we were stupid? I don't think so. Number three, yes we do lack EQ, and we pride ourselves on it, because like I said, that is how you survive in this world, especially in the world of finance. I'll bet you a hundred dollars you can't. Why do you work in finance, especially when you sound like one of those Occupy Wall Street people? Just get over it, and work in another field guys. You have to know that people don't care about you in this world, no on really cares about you. That's the problem with so many college students today, they think that once they go out into the world, they will be coddled. Wrong.

Fair enough. All I can tell you is that the culture in quant strategies is like the culture in tech-- minus the social justice bs, and quant strategies does seem to be winning right now. Intuitive, Type-B people who want to help each other succeed, want the best solution, but aren't adamant about exactly what that is. People who couldn't hunt a woolly mammoth on their own, but could do it as a tribe.

I'm not occupy wall street. I believe in capitalism. I'm not quite a full tilt Atlas Shrugged or Also Sprachs Zarathrusta guy, but I'm a Republican and I believe in competence. I just don't place quite as much weight on human execution as I put on human insight, intuition, and creativity as the average banker or hedge fund dinosaur when I can get the machine to execute for me. This approach has made me a lot of money and it's made a bunch of other tech and quant guys a lot of money, too.

Two different systems-- Farms and Jungle. But one is gaining. And I want to know where the fertile land is. I think this guy can help me, and maybe he can join my tribe.

    • 2
Dec 11, 2018
IlliniProgrammer:
nok15105:

No matter what, the type A's will always be the ones that really make things happen. How many people do see with a type B personality in the front office? Not many. And number two, would we be working in finance if we were stupid? I don't think so. Number three, yes we do lack EQ, and we pride ourselves on it, because like I said, that is how you survive in this world, especially in the world of finance. I'll bet you a hundred dollars you can't. Why do you work in finance, especially when you sound like one of those Occupy Wall Street people? Just get over it, and work in another field guys. You have to know that people don't care about you in this world, no on really cares about you. That's the problem with so many college students today, they think that once they go out into the world, they will be coddled. Wrong.

Fair enough. All I can tell you is that the culture in quant strategies is like the culture in tech, and quant strategies does seem to be winning right now.

I'm not occupy wall street. I believe in capitalism. I'm not quite a full tilt Atlas Shrugged or Also Sprachs Zarathrusta guy, but I'm a Republican and I believe in competence. I just don't place quite as much weight on human execution as I put on human insight, intuition, creativity as the average banker or hedge fund dinosaur when I can get the machine to execute for me. This approach has made me a lot of money and it's made a bunch of other tech and quant guys a lot of money.

Two different systems-- Farms and Jungle. But one is gaining. And I want to know where the fertile land is.

You are right, and that is partly because of the need for things like Fintech and quant. I agree that departments like sales and trading might be replaced within the next few decades because of those things, but areas like AM and IB will always need that human perspective, because robots and quant people usually don't have the people skills to win business. No offense, just from my experience, that has the way it's been.

GunningForGroupHead

Dec 11, 2018
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Dec 11, 2018

GunningForGroupHead

Dec 11, 2018
Dec 11, 2018

GunningForGroupHead

Dec 11, 2018

GunningForGroupHead

Dec 11, 2018

GunningForGroupHead