How long did it take for you to actually trade?
To get your own book and trade? From not having any prior experience before starting.
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depends...
this. it's extremely desk specific. there are a few desks that even MAKE you sit in research for 6-18 months (until they feel you are comfortable enough, but this is relatively rare for most desks) whereas others it is MUCH sooner--its very much desk/bank/product-specific
Take some analysts anywhere from 6 months to a year or two. Those taking longer normally get pushed out for obvious reasons.
Also depends on what asset class you are trading. For commodities, you would generally be expected to do analytics for 1-2 years before trading. Its an asset class that you need to know the ins and outs of - fundamentally and technically i.e. shipping routes, ports, grades etc.
Known guys on credit desks trading their own book within 3 months of being there. Super smart though.
Aside from commodities, which products have the steepest learning curves and why? And which are regarded as ”easier”? Would also be good if we could get a more granular look (spot vs forward vs options for FX, ig vs hy vs structured for credit, physical vs derivs, crude vs liquids vs gas vs power for commods, etc.) for each asset class. Great info btw rumple, thanks for that.
I'd say the learning curve is f(x)= 3x^2. What is f'(x)? Haha
If I knew jack shit about FX, but had two stints in commodities and written my thesis on commodities futures pricing. Then FX would be the most difficult to understand. There will always be a steep learning curves if you start from scratch.
I've had guys from FICC not understanding a single thing when visiting the equities and derivatives floor. The same goes for me going upstairs to them. Depends where you are on the learning curve before starting.
It doesn't make sense to compare, for the most part.
Commodities might have a steeper learning curve but just look at what you can trade within that asset class. Generally the consensus from some friends was that metals trading was easier than say emissions.
On the FI side, have a friend who interned in complex IR options but went to HY credit FT, found the latter easier.
It really depends on how quanty you are. A math/econ major should be okay on most desks. If you majored in political science, trading indices might be harder.
Just to make my point, back to commodities for example. No one can say its easier to trade physical vs middle distillates vs heavy because each trader will specialise in a certain product. Same goes with power and gas, depending on the what hub you are trading etc. Then you've got freight trading which, again, widens your scope for what you can trade.
6x, c'mon.
@BlackHat You've found how steep the learning curve is. Hahahaha
and the curve just gets steeper and steeper
What's usually considered the most quantitative desks? I know it's probably structured products, but what other desks?
It depends. I have friends who started taking risk at BBs in London after 5 months because the guy previously on the desk had been fired and they needed someone to take over. On the other hand I also know a guy who has been shadowing for over 8 months now without taking a position!
It really depends. I was fortunate enough to run my own books after about 2 months.
I got to manage a large cap equities and equity indices derivatives prop book within 2 weeks of a boutique trading internship during my freshman summer. Albeit it was a small book ($50K), but I had a blast. I believe three key factors contributed to this, bounced multiple ideas off the traders, kept bitching about the fact that I'd suck as a sales trader and most importantly, the desk head was poached by a BB to head their cash equities desk so he was willing to take a risk on me before leaving. This was a while back, but I'm still confident that it's still possible.
You managed an actual book as an intern?
Yeah and it isn't completely unusual (look out for @"trade4size" posts): http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/do-sas-in-st-actually-do-any-trad…
50,000 dollars or 50k dv01?
It can probably be a lot quicker on a funding desk given the generally lower risk products and dual financing/PnL mandate. Started trading repo - boring funding / covering shorts - 2nd week in. 3 months in traded repo specials (hard-to-borrow securities whose repo rates actually move more than a few basis points). In between faded some of moves in eurodollar futures when talk of tapering began and market began pricing in probability of rate hike in 2014.
From the traders I've talked to with former bank prop trading experience in fixed income, there are analysts who begin trading within 3 months and those who are still not ready to trade after 2 years. Outside of mastering basic responsibilities, those in the former camp understood the products, were capable of generating good risk/reward trade ideas, and did a lot of homework to really have a view before acting on any trade idea.
between a few months and 4 years. Depends on you, the firm, your desk, market situation. commodities usually takes longest, because you need to understand physical movements- but it's more interesting and complex IMO. Really vanilla electronic, standard things you could be trading very quickly...but the downside is you're trading something not that exciting and you're easier to replace.
6 months... now 2.5 years in I trade ~ 50% of the desk's universe...
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