Is $5m enough to retire at a young age?
I'm a 3rd year IBD analyst turning 27 soon so I'm pretty old for my level mainly due to me doing poorly in school, I was never book smart and so I had to retake a year I also went to a terrible school. My bank also has a 3 year program rather than the typical 2 year program so we spend longer as an analyst.
Anyway, I've been a pretty good investor over the years and 2020 was a crazy year for returns. I was able to take advantage of this insane growth and have now sold out of all my positions for safety and am sitting on around $5m in cash.
I honestly hate IBD and can't wait to quit. Is $5m enough to retire at the young age of 26/27 and live a nice lifestyle or would I have to live frugal/conservatively so I don't blow through it all by the time I'm 40? I guess it's always a risk to retire early unless you have like $20m saved up.
My plan is as follows:
House:
sadly I live in a pretty expensive area, but I want to own a house so I don't have to worry about being homeless so I'll buy a 1 bed flat outright in cash for $1m. I come from a very poor background, parents are unemployed and don't own a home (they rent) so I would also look to buy them a house in a cheaper area ($500k). This leaves me with about $3.5m.
Future earnings (rough example but ofc I will spend time planning diversification and investment strategy):
- invest $2m into low-risk funds aiming for capital preservation and possibly generating c.1%+ annual returns ($20k+)
- invest $1m into high-risk index funds, I appreciate these are volatile and may lose money which is why I would estimate a conservative average annual return of c.3%+ ($30k+)
- invest $100k into stocks (too uncertain to predict a return or loss)
- keep the remaining $400k as a cash buffer
Spending:
I don't care about living a luxury life but at the same time, I don't want to live a cheap life. I want somewhere in between, I think a good way of putting it is I want to be able to enjoy regularly going out to fancy restaurants, events, night outs with friends, helping the family out and traveling whenever I want etc.. but I don't care about buying a mansion or an expensive sports car or spending $20k on a night out. So I think a good budget to live like this would be $75k per year. I feel this is enough to live a nice lifestyle but open to other people's thoughts if this isn't enough.
Using this as a template then I would be eating into my savings by $25k a year (net of the assumed above % savings returns) and so over time I will also be earning slightly less future interest/earnings due to less AUM but at the same time you don't take your money with you when you die so eating away at my savings slightly over the years is fine in my perspective as long as it isn't too much that I end up broke later in life.
Other unknown factors that will require increasing spending:
- I'm single so I don't have to worry about spending on a GF and kids, however, I do want a gf and kids but I've just had no luck at the dating scene. If this one day happens I'll most likely have to double my income. $150k yearly spending should be enough to support a wife and two kids alongside a 'nice' lifestyle right? $150k means I would eat into my savings by c.$100k a year (net of % returns) which should still be fine I think? Also would need to upgrade the flat to a larger family home which in my area would be super expensive so I might have to look to relocate away from the city. I could rent out my 1 bed flat and then purchase a $2m+ family home (this isn't me thinking of buying a mansion I just live in a major city so a $2m family home would still be very small), could I afford this I guess it depends? If I buy it outright it would completely ruin my % returns as the AUM will be significantly lower and increase my risk of becoming broke, so I would most likely have to fund this via debt
- Other family members, I come from an overall broke and unemployed family so I have a lot of siblings still living at my parents house so chances are a lot of them will expect me to buy them a house or help them out etc. this could end up being quite expensive so I'll have to be careful
What are everyone thought's is this a good plan and enough to retire at my age to live a good life? Am I ready to hand in my resignation letter in the new year or is this too risky and I should be thankful for still having a job after covid-19 and not get too ahead of myself and stick to my job? I know MDs in their 40s who have $10m+ saved up and are still working, so this makes me feel stupid if I would look to retire in my 20s with half of that but I guess most MDs genuinely love the job so don't want to retire or want a more lavish lifestyle.
Thanks for reading and feel free to share your thoughts below.
Congrats and fuck you
My only critique of your investing/spending plan is your property purchase. Sure buy your parents a place but for yourself - especially if you will leave your work - you don't need to pay the premium for the location. Whether you decide to stop working, or pursue less demanding roles, you are doing the right thing with your conservative estimates and budget planning. Ultimately this is your decision. It is enough to retire on. But you will need to find some new meaning to your life.
If it was me, I would leave work and spend a few weeks just living with my family and spending time with friends before deciding whether I will backpack around, join a not for profit, etc.
Edit: and 400k cash buffer seems extremely high - I would have thought 100k liquid is more than enough. I can't comment on your relationship with your family but it might be simpler not to disclose your windfall and use more regular excuses why you are leaving your job/buying a house etc.
Thank you and good point, you're right that there is no need to pay the premium for the location if I no longer work in the city. I guess the two things keeping me here are wanting to remain in the city to be close to all my friends, I'd feel a bit lonely if I moved away (unless I had a gf to live with) and secondly I quite like the city vibe and social aspects/events, which would help prevent me from getting bored and lonely. I'll have to do some thinking into this before.
That is also a good point about finding meaning, so I'll have to do some thinking about ideas such as pursuing a hobbie etc.
Ah yes maybe I was a too safe with the cash buffer, I should allocate more to investments in that case.
Then keep renting. Breakeven for buying has got to be 3 years or more due to transaction costs alone
Without purpose life will get extremely boring for a 27 yr old. Purpose can come from anything, not just work so spend some time exploring what you really enjoy and how you can contribute to society. May sound hokey but that's the human part of being human. Hobbies, volunteering, mentoring, different type of work situation, etc. Definitely agree with quitting your current situation if you hate it. Essentially it's become a source of funds of which you have so it's done it's job. Find something that can bring you happiness and if it pays a few bucks that's great too.
Thanks and really good point, I can see how easy it would be to fall into the trap of watching netflix all day everyday so taking some time to really think about it is a good idea. I've always wanted to be an actor so one idea could be pursuing acting school.
If that's your passion that's a great idea. Imagine the luxury of practicing your craft, auditioning in such a competitive field (way more competitive than banking - D is an aspiring actor in a performing arts college so very familiar) without having to earn a living or live in a overcrowded tiny place with several roommates.
FYI - John Legend was an MBB consultant prior to shifting gears. Pretty cool.
if your purpose in life is to work, you should definitely reconsider your life - just my opinion.
Were you full of calls that soared, or what happened? I’m just impressed with 5M saved as 3y analyst
We're unable to trade most instruments such as options in banking so just stocks. I've always enjoyed reading into companies and investing, I tried recruiting for buyside but had no luck as most places just want strong academics and a prestigious brand which I don't have so I just continued it as a hobbie/side gig whilst in IBD. I've been investing since I was 18 when I had birthday money and using my student loans to trade. Grew my portfolio over the last 8+ years or so and had a great 2020 where I tripled my AUM by taking a huge amount of risk.
Were you doing short-term trades? Will you have a huge tax bill this year that could affect that $5 million?
I find it hilarious how you personally made $5m through buying plain stocks (which is hard evidence of investing ability and likely higher returns than any of the PMs interviewing you) and you received no buy-side offers lol
$5m at 27 is a lot, but not enough to retire if you live in a city like NY or London. You’ll likely need to work. You can do all the math you want now, but you need to understand that your expenses will go up over time. Two years ago maybe you’d go travel cheap and stay at hostels, now you are probably ok with a Holiday Inn, and in 5-10 years you’ll want nothing but Four Seasons quality. You’ll marry, have kids, think about private schools, ski trips, flights for 3-4 people, maybe have a permanent nanny at home, etc.
Just curious, does your trade not need to be clear by your managers? From my understanding if I were suppose to trade then I need to clear the trade by my direct manager then it goes to internal compliance.
Yes all trades need to be approved by compliance e.g. at my bank we submit a request online and get a response 48 hours later approving the trade by compliance.
Pics or it didn’t happen
Cough Cough TSLA
Financially it is definitely possible, although you should have a pretty clear plan (as you state). The things I would consider:
1) any financial mistakes will be costly - if you leave the workforce it will be hard to come back. If you end up with a bad investment, medical expenses (depending where you live), etc getting a job to get additional cash will be tough
2) make sure to understand total costs - are there any expenses that your employer covers? Any family benefits you’ll lose? Any family you may need to support? And as you mention, getting married, having kids, etc can really change things
3) find something to do - I would lose my mind if I retired, that’s not to say the job you are in is ideal. As mentioned by others, I would find something you are passionate about. If at all possible (doubt it if in IB) take time off and actually try it (even if for a couple weeks). You mentioned acting, can you take a 2 week acting class? Just be careful of the grass always being greener.
4) get comfortable with new lifestyle and be realistic - At a minimum I would live life based on your expected income and make sure you are comfortable with this. It may not be much of a change, but add up your last year of expenses, make sure you are being realistic, don’t assume that things will all of a sudden change.
I wouldn’t buy the house all cash. Interest rates are insanely low and you should try and lock that in if you are set on buying
That was my first thought! With his level of cash and his debt to income ratio (which I'm guessing is zero because I doubt he has $5mm in cash and carries any CC/student loan debt) he would qualify for like a 2.3% interest rate on a 30 year loan. Lock that up and save the $800k in down payment for investing at a higher return.
Thanks for the thoughts, this is something I'm a bit unsure on. I'd quite like to have the comfort of knowing it's fully paid off and won't have to worry about a mortgage payment which is why I was thinking about buying outright. I do agree that using leverage would be better from a returns perspective but I'm unsure on mortgages as I'm yet to speak to a mortgage adviser.. would they still lend if I'm technically unemployed? From what I'm aware mortgages are calculated based on your annual salary rather than wealth? I'll look into this and speak to a mortgage broker/adviser.
2.3% on a $1M loan is still a $23k waste on interest 1st year, then a bit less, but still big interest expenses. Meanwhile, the market can easily drop in the near future cause it's currently unbelievably unreasonably bullish.
You easily could retire on the $3.5mm. The general rule of thumb for drawing from retirement funds is 3.5%, or $122.5k in your case. The only thing I'd suggest is reconsidering your investment strategy. I would put nearly all of it into general index funds as you are still young. Annual real returns from the S&P 500 are around 7%, so your nest egg will only continue to grow.
As a few other commenters have noted, you definitely need to figure out something else to do other than just retire, as you need to have purpose and passions or even just structure. This could be joining a non-profit, travelling, writing, etc., but I'd recommend perhaps even just finding a regular 9 to 5 job in an industry you enjoy (Big skier? go work for Salomon. Big golfer? go work for Callaway). Your background in IB should help you at least get in the door somewhere. A blog you might consider reading as I think he has a really good perspective on things, and used to be in IB for many years, is Financial Samurai. In fact, he has an article on the perfect retirement age I'd suggest you check out: https://www.financialsamurai.com/ideal-age-to-retire/#:~:text=41%2D45%20years%20old%20is,of%20making%20record%20high%20income.
There are a ton of resources for you to check out in the community known as "Financial Independence, Retire Early" or "FIRE". A quick google for that will help get you in the direction of what you're looking for. You're in a tremendously fortunate position that most of us on here would give our left arm for, so don't make any rash decisions and be sure what you eventually decide upon is the optimal path forward. The worst that can happen to you now is that you work some random part time or 9 to 5 job and just keep letting your assets grow for another 10-20 years so you can really retire in your 40s.
Completely agree with this - take 3-6 months off now if you feel like you need to decompress. In the long run, take an easy 9-5 in a nice location where you can have a social life and great travel on the side. Someone who has the mental capacity to get through IB for 3 years will be extremely bored after 6 months of "retirement" - plus, every single other 27 year old out there will not be available during the weekdays.
You've gotta be kidding me
Wow! How did you manage to have such crazy returns in 2020? How big was your portfolio/have you liquidated your entire holdings?
Just my 2 cents - do something you really enjoy rather than IB since you have the time now rather than nothing at all. Also probably leave the current job at a "economically healthy time" so you have some safety when looking around for new things to do.
You can but you won't be able to maintain your current lifestyle with it, unless you move to the midwest or something. I'd considering taking a comfortable corpdev/corpstrat whatever job and mostly live off the 150K+ a year from salary.
Congrats to you if this is real but you’re leaving something out. To have $5mm after 3 years of work experience and “birthday money” just doesn’t make sense unless all your money has been in Bitcoin or birthday money means trust fund on your 18th birthday. If you could generate these returns, you wouldn’t be here asking basic personal finance questions and buy side firms would be lining up to hire you.
I hope I’m wrong but this feels like a troll.
Right? Let's say he had $100k 9 years ago in student loans/b-day money that he somehow used to invest instead of paying for school (how, I'm not sure). And for the last 3 years he has chipped in an insane $100k of his income straight to his investment account. He also stated that he tripled his "AUM" (is it AUM when it's all your money?) in 2020, so we know that he had to reach 5/3 = $1.66mm coming into 2020. That means, given my parameters, that he would have needed to achieve an annual rate of return of approximately 39.5% every year. This guy must be some kind of genius, if he can manage that rate of return for just 3 more years his $5mm would be $13.5 and he should have no problem retiring.
Not to mention that he was going to buy a $1mm house cash when he could finance it at historically low interest rates.
verdict: troll
Exactly and if it were true then it would be a stupid question. It would mean that he’s been living off of his salary alone let’s say 95k, which would equate to a withdrawal rate of under 2% a year. No shit it’s possible.
Maybe you haven't been following the markets.
Verdict: Clueless.
100% agree, it’s suspect even under the most egregiously favorable assumptions, and even if that guy did exist he would be fighting off hedge fund recruiters not asking basic personal finance questions on WSB
He's a troll.
Banks also have a minimum 30-day holding period after screening your trades past compliance. Any bank would 100% monitor / flag ANY (especially a junior) employee making all these trades especially at a ~300% return in 2020.
Also did you account for Taxes?
I think your assumption assume that the post-tax returns are 39.5% meaning that pre-tax returns are greater than 50%+ for the better part of a decade on a stock only portfolio (for at least the last 3 years).
Damn dude, it you had taken this time to analyze a few companies instead of analyze his returns maybe you could get 39.5% too
First, congrats on the $5m.
I’d stay the course for now until you are able to find a full time role in a Corp development/strategy or even commercial banking with a similar salary prior to taking off. If you want to stay in your current city, that is.
You would need a stable work schedule or else it will most likely interfere with your circadian rhythm.
Don’t forget when you purchase a property there are also unforeseen costs to it, so bear in mind you potentially have to pay for those too.
I feel as though you barely made it to a goal you wanted to reach, now comes the planning phase in all of this.
I'd look heavily into the fatFIRE community, they have a lot of stuff for people in situations just like yours
This guy fucks
I'd find a less demanding job doing something you'd enjoy and rely on that for your daily expenses, medical insurance, etc. while you continue to grow your wealth with the 5mm. Like others have said paying for a house in cash is not financially sound and having nothing to do at 27 would get boring fast.
Show positions or ban
If you can tough it out till 30 or 35ish, I think you can easily pseudo-retire on what you'll have saved by then — plus it gives you more time to find a significant other in the city
Yeah, it's enough if ~$200k/year is enough for you. Invest in an equally-weighted SP500 index fund (ticker RSP) - this way you're not as dependent on the performance of big tech as if you invest in SPY. If you invest in SPY, and the government decides to restructure Facebook, Google, Apple, you're fucked. So invest all in RSP and withdraw 4% every year. Congrats and have a nice life.
This is a joke. Screen shot your PA, blacking out all personal information, and I will be glad to publicly apologize and congratulate you.
Otherwise, you are just a very strange person who gets off to acting like someone they aren't on the internet.
Agree. Also kinda funny that bunch of people here are giving advice to some 27 year old who claims he has $5MM in CASH from just investing. WTF.
If I made $5mm in my PA I would f'ing screen shot that thing all over the place. Let's see it.
fuck me dead bro $5m at 27 - what am i doing wrong. i will invest 80% of my life savings in the next bear market.
Grats to the OP if not a troll.
Not the OP but had a similar(ish) level of success this year. Here's a screenshot from personal capital with personal deets blanked out. I already prepaid most of my tax bill for 2020.
https://i.imgur.com/xTxXexy.png
1) Congrats
2) How the fuck did you have $1m assets to start with in 2019?
3) Cash out and just become a teacher, employee at some quirky start-up or something meaningful - why would you do this crap still? You make $160k from your assets alone at 4% withdrawal
1) thanks
2) I saved aggressively, have been working for a decade excluding MBA years. Parents footed the bill for college so starting out debt free worked well. Probably took 3 years to amass 100kish and 7 years to get to 500k. 100% stock allocation in index funds (no single tickets) and consistent savings. I also put 5-10% of NW in bitcoin over the years with probably 1k average cost so that helped me a lot to get to $900k or so to enter 2020. My Crypto portfolio is now around $500k give or take. I had two rental properties to start the year with mortgages and now I have 4 owned free and clear and one with a mortgage.
3) I like money and the pay is great. I’m trying to hit $10M and then I’ll call it quits, so will still work for another decade.
Wow that is insane. How did you do it?
Yolo 5/15/2020 S&P 500 puts with a 1900 strike price purchased in late Feb / early March and sold early April. So basically won the lottery.
Assuming that you live another 60 years until 87, I'm not sure if $5mm + investments could last you the whole time (definitely will not if you end up with wife + kids). I know that I personally need some sort of regiment in my life. Maybe you could pivot to an industry that you enjoy with better hours just to keep earning and staying busy.
Also be super wary about family. Obviously you know your situation best, but you earned your money with blood, sweat, and long hours in the office. Don't feel pressured to be your siblings' meal tickets. Good luck
Wtf super jealous. It’s enough to retire but you need to consider what you’ll do for the next 20-40 years until most of your peers retire. I’d retire and get a piece of real estate to make sure I’ll always have some money coming in. You are 100% going to want to find some “commitments” that take up 25 hrs a week or you’re going to go crazy. Personally would join a rec league that meets 1-3x a week, volunteer for 1 or 2 orgs a few hours a week, join the lions, rotary and/or toastmasters, get on 1 or 2 community boards, join 1 or 2 hobby clubs that meet every week or every other week, and then rotate my last activity depending on my interests, starting with a cooking class. Wouldn’t mention to any women that you’re retired until you’re serious or they’ll spend all your money (speaking as a women). Just say you “work” at your volunteering place, are a “patient advocate” or “help disadvantaged youth.”
Im jealous so I’m leaning more towards troll post. The risk tolerance he took to get to the $5m is a complete 180 from the highly conservative 1-3% he’s praying to get on the money invested long term. Also the emphasis on growing up dirt poor adds a nice touch
B+ trolling. Well done.
So what? Once you get to a certain level - you don't need to take the same level of risk you took at the beginning. Even just playing it safely from here on out especially this young - he can certainly increase this to $15-$20m+ by the time he is of retirement age.
The thing with risk tolerance is it changes with your net worth. If I'm 22 and put my 10k net worth into extremely risky bets and it goes to 0, who cares, my quality of life wont change dramatically and I got 40 years to make it back. Once you reach 5 million, you are facing severe lifestyle changes if that goes to 0 or even gets cut in half. Once you hit like 100 million (probably even before this) you aren't so much investing to make money as you are to make sure you don't lose it, because you've already beaten the game.
100% troll.
Man. Park the $5,000,000 in low risk, income producing positions — target something with a yield between 4-5% and live off the interest never touching the principal. Mind numbingly simple solution.
I’m a beginner to this kind of stuff? What would this low risk 4-5% yield investment be? What kinds of bonds?
Yielding 4-5% doesn't have to be in bonds.....
Your parents are unemployed. Why not just buy a property with a separate space and a lock to your space so that way you save money, and potentially, they could pay rent at some point if that's possible.
Retiring with $5M is a low middle class budget, as expensive as life is. Either way, I'm all about trimming unnecessary financial fat. You need to think long-term about how things may change overtime. Houses don't depreciate in value, but most of their components will. And as humans, our bodies depreciate, as well. Cash is another asset that depreciates, so some of what you're saving/plan from an expense standpoint will only get harder.
Having $5M in the bank at 27 is still a good number and you probably know what you're doing. So good luck.
Retiring at $5M is a low middle class budget? Can you explain that?
I think he means retiring so early with just $5m is not enough to live an upper middle class lifestyle for the rest of their life and from a monetary standpoint is comparable to a lower middle class person working until retirement age.
Each link I find on google quotes different figures but using one as an example it says ~$60k per year is considered lower middle class. So that over 50 years is ~$3m gross earnings and upper middle class says $880k a year which is about $44m gross earnings over 50 years. So the $5m to last you the next 50 years or so is more comparable to the lower middle class.
ofc it isn’t as simple as this and this doesn’t factor in salary progression of the first 10/20 years of working your salary will be lower, so in reality the above gross figures will be lower.
To reiterate most links say different $ figures so it’s also debatable what salary is needed for upper and lower middle class.
You can make enough on annualized returns over the 50 or so years leaving $5M parked in an index. But, it's unrealistic when it comes to making that money readily available to live off. For one, principle will be much lower, maybe $2-3M lower. Secondly, you'd need after tax income. Third, COL is high and inflation is a real risk you'd need to hedge for.
I mean why not use the 5mil to generate income?
5million at 5% is 250k (not even bring up leverage) in real estate. Could buy a small apt building live off 5-10k month as a base salary.
Theta gang and sell options on safe stocks. You can sell puts at the money on ORCL at 0.75-1%/week. Can do this with a basket of stocks and 1-2million.
And a million other ways to generate money from the capital. Doesn't mean you have to retire but make money other ways than sitting in a cube doing what someone tells you to all day.
I think the OP was saying how capital preservation is key for him now as he wants things to be safe and certain given he’s retiring so early. So low risk index funds seemed a good match for them. Also a couple comments above mentioned it will be hard to get mortgages when unemployed even with all that wealth
Congrats on saving and investing so well and also having a defensive plan on how you plan to invest.
I think it might be better to think of yourself as financially independent for the life stage you are at. The main issue seems to be the job you are in, so perhaps change that.
It might be better to wait to retire until other parts of your life (wife, kids, purpose) are clear, like others have mentioned.
Sounds like buying your parents property, given your success, is a no regrets move.
This is a troll post but I'll answer the question anyways.
It all depends on the lifestyle but $3M after having a paid off house has always been my "fuck you" number. $100k at 3-4% withdrawal a year. That's more than enough for me.
You'll get very bored quite quickly. Allocate 100% into something high risk and fun.
Start an angel investment fund. The next 10 prospects I meet that are too small, I send your way and you act interested, and occasionally invest in them if you think they are good ideas. I'll give you enough flow that you're never bored in retirement and you give me a special unique buyer to flaunt.
Thoughts?
No it is not.
I’m in no place to comment because my net worth is less than 50k. But I feel confident saying that planning out your retirement/financial safety down to the little nuances might not be the best thing to ask strangers on the internet. You clearly have enough to hire a financial planner, I think that would be well worth the investment. They are professionals with skills that people in IB and high finance don’t have/develop quite as much. Literally less than $1,000 for a sit down, way better and tailored advice than anonymous internet posters
Read: “my trust just hit...”
I just want to comment on this specific part: "I want to be able to enjoy regularly going out to fancy restaurants, events, night outs with friends, helping the family out and traveling whenever I want etc."
Is NOT "somewhere in between" lmao. That is definitely the lifestyle of someone solidly in the upper class, please at least be aware of this. People can barely pay their rent and afford food these days.
It’s enough, but you need to move to a lower COL area and jack up your risk appetite. This equation looks a lot better with 8% growth rather than 2%
It’s possible but what id recommend from talking to a lot of people about this is moving to a Corp dev job making 100-150 depending on what you get and also get health insurance and stuff
But spend ALL of it or plan to while letting your capital base appreciate. Maybe you don’t find that much to spend on and you invest it in risky things.
Upside, you build a MUCH better margin of safety, can still live in high COL area meet people be social etc. You still work in a hopefully interesting area. Have enough time to pick up more hobbies work on yourself and be with family. Hopefully you move up the ladder but without too much pressure on yourself and make 200-300k/500k with the same effort after 1-8 years and cruise from there. You can now live wherever you want, splurge on watches cars vacations gifts etc without worrying, and you work in a career where you’re somewhat important.
Downside you have to work but it’s not that bad. You’ll still have rough days and think about not having to be there, buts that’s balanced by being able to eat out as much as you want, go on vacation, and even splurge on a thing or two.
I reckon u should continue renting rather than purchasing because property tax and maintanece cost pretty much equals up to the rent
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