Best Language to Learn for Finance?
Hey WSO,
Rising high school senior here looking to go into finance one day after college. Though I'm interested in finance, I am also highly interested in international business and learning a new language. I've always wanted to do business in Hong Kong and China, but I have heard that learning Mandarin as an English speaker is insanely difficult to become good at. What would you guys suggest as a language for someone to learn for international business / international finance?
The schools I'll probably be applying to:
Babson College (Match)
Bentley University (Match)
Boston College (CSOM) (Reach)
Bryant University (Safety)
Cornell University (Reach)
Fordham University (Match)
Harvard College (Super-Reach)
Northeastern University (Match)
University of Massachusetts Amherst (Safety)
University of New Hampshire (Safety)
University of Pennsylvania (Super-Reach)
Villanova University (Reach)
C++ / Python
Seconded
> I have heard that learning Mandarin as an English speaker is insanely difficult to become good at.
This is false.
I am a native English speaker who studied Mandarin for four years in college (including a stint studying abroad in Beijing) and have kept up with the language to the point that my Chinese proficiency is sufficient enough to operate in a professional capacity. During my time in Beijing I passed the second highest (level 5) proficiency test (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanyu_Shuiping_Kaoshi). The result on the test meant that, at least on paper, I was eligible to study at a Chinese university in a program/field of study in which the language of instruction was Chinese. I only had a year of intensive study under my belt when I passed this exam, and though it boosted my ego, I am doubtful I could have actually kept up with the coursework at a Chinese university (competing against native Chinese speakers, no less...) Since then, my Chinese has improved exponentially. I also spent some significant stretches of time in Taiwan. Being honest with myself, I could easily sit in a lecture hall and listen to a Chinese professor lecture on a complex topic, understand 99% and can write a paper on it in a reasonable amount of time. There was even one time In the past where I was called on to serve as a simultaneous Chinese/English interpreter in a formal, professional setting. My accent in Chinese has naturally reached the point that I get mistaken for a native Chinese speaker when I speak on the phone.
For most people, my honest advice would be to not bother with Chinese if the goal is to do business in Hong Kong or China. This is not like the early 1980s in Japan where Westerners could come to Japan (the language, in many cases, being optional) and have successful careers. In China and Hong Kong, there are millions of native Chinese speakers who are completely fluent in English (in many cases, they went to college and even high school in the US or UK)
More and more, multinationals would prefer to hire people from the latter rather than install an expat since they innately understand the local culture and have a much easier time building relationships. No to mention, locally hired guys are much cheaper than their Western expat counterparts who traditionally received cushy packages that paid for housing, kid's education, club memberships, airfare twice a year to return home, etc.
For Chinese companies, the same holds true except for cases in which the person has some specialized technical knowledge. I know of some native English speakers (who have studied Chinese and are reasonably proficient in the language) in engineering roles who are working in China. In most cases, their Chinese language skills have not been put to much use. They have told me the only time it is useful is for ordering take out food or dealing with locals who don't speak English (e.g. taxi drivers)
How did you keep up with and improve your Chinese outside of school?
Just a conscious effort to set aside time each day to read (articles written in Chinese), listen (news and occasionally TV shows) and speak Chinese (friends and sometimes even colleagues who were native Chinese speakers, random waiters/waitresses in Chinese restaurants, etc.)
So if not Mandarin, is there a language you would suggest that would be beneficial in international business / finance?
I did not mean to discourage you from learning Chinese. It's a lot of fun (or, at least it was for me, for a number of reasons such as the writing system, the fact that it's a tonal language, etc.) and it has a certain chic factor because of its perceived difficulty (especially if you are Caucasian, e.g. no one will ever question your intelligence if you are a White guy who speaks fluent Mandarin).
All I am saying is don't learn the language with the intention of trying to work in China. It's very difficult for a foreigner to work in China because there are millions of native Chinese speakers who studied abroad in the US/UK and later wish to return to China for work.
The reality is that most non-US markets prefer to hire local candidates who are also proficient in English. However, this might hold less true for non-Asian markets... there may be some markets in which a native English speaker could conceivably land a job by learning the local language(s)... two that immediately come to mind are Europe and Latin America.
If you had any desire to work in Europe (specifically London) then having knowledge of a European language (e.g. French, German, Italian, etc.) would probably boost your chances. Most kids targeting finance who are coming out of universities in continental Europe probably speak a European language besides English. Anecdotally, a friend of mine who is a native English speaker learned German to an advanced level (he started in high school and continued it through college) and he said it helped him in landing a finance job in London.
The same goes for Latin America. If you want to do anything involving Latin America then it is pretty much essential to learn Spanish. Anecdotally, I knew a handful of native English speakers who were total Hispanophiles and they used their language skills to land jobs in finance involving Latin America. As a side note, some of these people have recently lost their jobs through layoffs and are currently looking for new positions...
English.
German
http://www.economist.com/news/europe/21663257-once-language-schiller-an…
http://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero/2014/03/language-study
Dmitry Pushkin, Zhang Chuan, and Manuel de Jesus step onto a container ship.
Manuel has both hands up, palms empty.
Zhang has two briefcases.
Dmitry opens a crate to reveal a cache of zeecrit ezpecial gooties.
What language do they speak in?
Language of attraction
Too late, kid. To learn Mandarin you should have been in classes last few years, at least. Never gonna have the time moving forward.
Quick resume question - Learning languages? (Originally Posted: 03/27/2011)
Can I include learning languages as part of my "interests" section? Would it matter if I specified when language?
thanks
p.s. I know it might be a stupid question, but I want to iron out anything that might look stupid
No because it takes time away from work and requires constant practice.
There's nothing wrong with listing it. Matter of fact, if you had something to back it up (i.e. "Conversational Spanish" in your Skills section or a studyabroad entry in your Education) then it would be even stronger.
Learning Another Language with Long Work Hours (Originally Posted: 03/01/2014)
In college, I took a few Spanish courses along volunteering in South America. Took a break from learning Spanish last year due to the demands of working in consulting. Now that I have a bit more time, wanted to hear your experiences in regards to getting better in a language while working?
Do you guys/gals take weekend classes? Rosetta Stone everyday? Trying to get back to this beautiful language. Thanks for the help!
I say screw Rosetta Stone. The best way to do it is to memorize the few hundred most used words, the conjugations, and then actually talk to people who've spoken the language fluently from birth.
Also, duolingo I hear is solid. Still, speaking to people who speak the language is the closest thing you'll get to immersion (which is the best way to learn a language).
Depending on your level, this may or may not be applicable: every morning I try to read a finance/industry-related article in the foreign language to see how much I can comprehend, and then read the English version.
Trust me, the college classes you took do NOT prepare you for actual intelligent writing. WSJ Japan is a bitch.
Thanks for the advice. DuoLingo is surprisingly good for being free.Do you guys self-study or take a class in your spare time?
Self study. I wish I could take classes but they're usually in the early evening when - surprise - I'm still in the office :(
LetsGoSpanish.com. That's what I use. Prices are dirt cheap ... as low or lower than $10/hour for 1on1 lessons. Everything is done via Skype and you can schedule them whenever you'd like ... as many or as few hours per week with extreme flexibility to cancel last minute.
I paid $2,500+ for 40 hours with Berlitz. Worst use of money ever. I also have Rosetta Stone 1-5 for Spanish and a couple other languages. Rosetta Stone isn't so bad, but you definitely need to supplement it. There is nothing better than just having a conversation with a native speaker, and you get to talk about subjects you're interested in so the things you are learning are actually relevant.
I would say consistency is the best - you should set aside some time, even a few minutes a day before bed or something, to go over vocab, listen to audio, etc. ; there's a reason why full immersion is the best way to learn :p
HelloTalk is another app I'd recommend. You get to actually talk to someone in that language that you want to learn and they will respond in the language they want to learn (I'd assume you'd help them learn English).
Have to learn a new language (european) (Originally Posted: 01/16/2017)
Hey there! Quick question for you. I already know Italian (mother-tongue) and fluent english. As part of my second year (undergraduate) I have to learn a new European language. Choices are: French, German and Spanish. As I don't really like German, I won't do it. Which one do you think would be most useful between French and Spanish for finance-related jobs (not only IBD, but mainly)? MY REASONS FOR SPANISH: - It's cool and easy; - It's the second most spoken language in the world. MY REASONS FOR FRENCH: - I already know basic french; - Maybe more jobs in Paris after Brexit?; - France/Canada is cooler than Spain/South America. I plan to reach a fluent level (for business). Of course, my job prospects are mainly in Europe (even if I wouldn't mind working in the US or other continents) I know it won't be that important, but I would like to choose wisely!
Thank you very much!
Personally I'd prefer Spanish. Spanish is in the top three globally in terms of number of native speakers. French is number 18 or so depending how you count non-native speakers. I get the sense that Spanish will also be easier to reach fluency in if you already speak Italian, they seem very similar.
I don't know how well that ties into finance jobs in particular though. Would you be more excited about being able to do business with France and parts of Africa, or Spain and most of South America? Will you be studying this language long enough to reach business-level proficiency, or is it just going to be fun to know a little when you take a vacation, and where would you rather travel?
Thanks for your answer! I think I will be able to reach a fairly good level and I plan in the future to reach business-travel proficiency.
Spanish would be good for banking since there is a market for Latin America IBD positions
Yes, that's what i was thinking... Though, I think French could be useful for Paris jobs / Canada (maybe english is enough there?)
Can French be useful if banks relocate jobs to Paris (as HSBC is doing)?
Go with Spanish. Will be easier since you already know Italian and you'll have more opps than with French.
Thank you :)
Maybe I should reconsider German? Frankfurt looks strong for IBD
You should definitely reconsider German. Germany is EU's powerhouse economy and I believe there are lots of opportunities for IBankers.
Although, I'm not too sure about German bank policies regarding taking in non-native speakers; you might be put at a disadvantage here.
And another factor you should consider is how bad Deutsche Bank is doing right now, I'm sure you've seen the discussion where the bonuses are being cut this year.
I agree with everybody else, Spanish is a good language to master if you're planning to work in South American IB positions. Also helps in some parts of the USA.
I would second German. The DACH economies are powerhouses, (Germany, Switzerland, Austria). Not to mention there isn't that many German foreign speakers compared to French or Spanish so competition is lower yet you still have a chance of getting a well-paid job.
Not to mention Switzerland on average for their finance Jobs pay incredibly well, However cost of living is quite high in Zurich too.. but it's a nice life (in my experience). Spanish would be great for LATAM so it would depend on where your focus it. I'd only learn French if I was going into elite circles of Diplomacy/Law/Government in the EU region.
There is also the benefit of French being the language of use in many African neighbouring countries. Never been on the continent however it is said to be the next China/India int he next few decades so do some DD before considering. However I wouldn't consider French/(working in Paris) unless you were a native, You won't necessarily get promoted/very far up the ladder due to being a foreigner.
German.
Best way to Learn new Languages (Originally Posted: 08/16/2006)
So what do you guys and girls think? Do university courses really help? IMO i don't think so since you don't get much practise out of it. I think just throwing yourself in Shanghai or tokyo or where ever would be more sufficient. I think you could grasp a language fairly well within 3-6 months if you did this.
If you understand how to use torrents I would suggest searching for "pimsleur" at a torrent site and downloading whatever language you want to learn. I also wouldn
But doesn't knowing the language, even if business is conducted in english, make you more marketable both the BSchools admissions and IBanking jobs?
The best way to learn a language is to immerse yourself in the language, for egsample if you want to learn Japanese, there is certainly no better place than Japan.
Having said (written?) that, I would think that Pimsleur is a good way to learn basics with further immersion through radio or television if you cannot find someone that can mentor you in the language you want to learn.
BTW it would be strange to know how to speak a language with nobody to speak to in that language.
i'm crazy so i talk to myself
is knowing spanish a business advantage in today's america? i've thought for a while that the most useful language to know would be chinese, but the number of everyday scenarios i'm encountering where knowledge of spanish would be useful (like the super in my NYC apartment building) is big and growing.
Study and go. Immersing yourself in a language and culture is the best way to learn, but you need to have a foundation to build on first. Take a class or get some software...and then go. I don't see a 2nd language getting you an I-banking job. As far as Spanish goes, its useful to know it but not too helpful in biz (most affluent spanish speakers speak english anyway).
I think spanish can be pretty helpful if you work in an emerging markets field, like emerging mkts DCM, project finance or some kind of distressed EM debt investing. It's not that south americans can't speak English, but a lot of the meetings and documentation are in fact in Spanish.
If you want to work in Asia, knowing Japanese or Chinese is certainly a huge plus.
Mandarin is the way to go for the next while IMO
A second language could come in handy if you are working in/with Europe.
I'm learning Afrikaans, the language of oppression, I love oppressive languages, which one of you wants to go to South Africa with me and oppress Negroes?
I took a year of Italian at college, which got me pretty much nowhere. Living in Milan for six months made me semi-fluent, though the the formal base definitely helped. The dialogue in textbooks (and pimsleur) is far different from the way people speak on a day to day basis. Far eastern languages are considerably harder to master than romantic languages though. It depends on what level of proficiency you want, purely conversational, or business-oriented or written as well, but if you have a burning desire, I say go for it
best way to learn another language.. (Originally Posted: 08/04/2007)
hello,
i've just wanted to know about the ways ya'll guys learn a new language? i know the best way actually is a trip for a year or so to the country.. but if anyone cant effort it.. what will his chances be like?
how ya'll prep for languages like spanish or french?
hope anyone can give me some serious tips on this topic.
thx in advance
Rosetta Stone software
Learning a new language is not that difficult, but it does require a significant level of devotion. The best way to learn a new language is to surround yourself by it every day. If you're trying to learn Spanish or French, Rosetta Stone is a good piece of software but very pricey. It won't teach you verb tenses which is a very vital part of understanding the language. Here is what I did to learn Spanish on my own:
1) Rosetta Stone 2) Books! You can buy books at Barnes & Nobles or wherever that are entirely in Spanish. They will be very difficult to read until you're quite proficient at the language, but try to read with a Spanish/English dictionary in your hands and write down the words you don't know. 3) Daily calender with a "Spanish Word of the Day" and it used in a sentence. 4) Get "Learn Spanish Behind the Wheel" tapes, listen to them while you drive and do the exercises. 5) Workbooks -- study the material and do the exercises. This may seem a lot like school but hey, you're learning a language. 6) Download Spanish songs and put them on your Ipod. Download the lyrics and translate them. Sing along in your car or whatever. 7) Google desktop! I have an RSS feed setup so I get daily news in Spanish as well as an RSS feed to a "Spanish Lesson of the Day." Spend 5 minutes a day reading these. 8) When in class, take notes in the language. This is harder when you're just starting out. I had a cheat sheet in one of my science classes that I made entirely in Spanish. It forced me to know the words cold otherwise the cheat sheet wasn't going to be of much use. 9) Watch movies with Spanish subtitles (this is actually a big help). Be careful of places where the translation was wrong or had a different meaning. 10) If your telephone has a "Spanish" setting, switch it over. Navigate and use your phone entirely in Spanish. 11) Expose yourself to foreigners who speak your language of choice. Sit back and listen to them talk and try to understand what they are saying. 12) Find a cute foreigner and date her (this is probably the toughest to do!) Write each other notes in Spanish. Talk in Spanish. Etc. 13) Go to a Spanish speaking country, but only speak Spanish. Do not fall into the temptation to speak English. Do not be afraid to make mistakes or embarrass yourself. Try to talk to people who don't speak English at all. 14) Lastly, just try to practice every chance you can. Try to learn the names of objects you see or use every day. Practice practice practice!
If you keep it up, I guarantee you will learn the language very quickly. You'll reach a point where the learning curve starts to flatten out a bit, but you have to keep pushing forward. It will be very fun at first as you can improve vastly in a matter of a week. Don't neglect vocabulary and try to vary the words you use. Take risks with complex sentences. You need to keep up a "can do" attitude and make sure learning the language is fun, otherwise you will burn out. Things will stick a lot better if you actually want to learn as well!
Suerte!
nice post man..
i will follow some of your advices.. i really will do it.
in school ive used to learn spanish but we had a really anoying teacher.. and actually i didnt liked the language... but ive changed my mind.
i will def learn spanish now
thanks again for the advices!
Goodluck and keep at it!
the girlfriend thing.. heh my gf is thai so i actually learnin thai by the way.. well less or more.. heh
have also to learn way more english as its not my mother tongue.
do you, CompBanker, or any1 else also know some other techniques to get into huge loads of information? e.g. a complex topic like fixed income or credit derivatives and so?
what i do by now:
ive read the article or the script once and underlined with one color words i dont know and with a second color phrases and keywords related to the text and even make some notices on a special sheet... if the text isnt that long (its problematic with book.. you just need more time) and re-read it and some things will be clearer then.
ive try to get a lot of information into my head lately... studying nearly all day from early to late.. but also some breaks for going out etc.
do you guys know tabs? over here we use them for learning and memorizing some keywords and definitions and so on... its really good i should use them more often.
ok.. any other techniques?
the reason i ask is.. yall doing your MBAs, CFAs and other exams... and you have to study and learn a lot for the goal.. you have really less time and huge loads of information.. you its smart to use tome special tactics for learning
thx
Patience, and devotion will help you master the language. I had to go to a foreign language school every wednesday for 14 years. And I spoke it at home as well with my mother. I even went to the country a few times. And I still SUCK at writing it. Any method is good, but if you don't have the interest and the patience, it's pointless to study.
I want to work now! No, really. I want those 100+ hours/week.
What language were you trying to learn disjoint?
You could try "Muffy", it's this cartoon character thing that PBS has, except that it's really good and if you get bored easily it's fun!
Living abroad is prob the best way if you have the time to do that
My daughter is three and she already is speaking in tongues. Wait, I mean she can speak a little Spanish. I took two years in undergrad, so I teach her here and there. My wife and I spent three months in Puerto Vallarta for our honeymoon just after undergrad, and that definitely enhanced my skillset, even though everyone there spoke enough English that one didn't really need to learn Spanish.
I second the girlfriend idea. I also took a year of Mandarin in undergrad, and nearly everyone in my class was Korean (still not sure about the correlation there), although there were three other white guys in there who had Chinese girlfriends and wanted to learn the language. I never quite got it, though that was probably the hardest class I ever had. I am re-thinking it now, and plan on starting Mandarin classes again in a year or so - but just at the community college level. CC classes are relatively cheap, and the campus is practically across the street from my office.
Good luck!
but there is one thinkg about spanish... if you ever heard natives speaking it.. i was like wtf u cant almost understand them because they are sooo fast speaking. in real world you cant ask them if they could speak slowly... so with all the learning i think its not done yet.
hey checbk, learn to write english first before you bother with your next language.
sternfox, i'm still in the process of learning:)
but i appriciate the reminder of my bad english! i'll have to learn harder i guess.
The more languages you master the easier it gets to learn new ones (even if they are unrelated languages)
It is shocking how in UK/USA most university Students are fluent in ONLY ONE language... Even Oxbridge and Ivy.
I'm going to use the summer to learn Swedish before going to Stockholm School of Economics. Should be an interesting challenge to say the least!
And it's even more demoralising when you see a guy like this... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17101370
In that case you need learn more language so you must be as versatile as per other so keep it up and learn more languages in this world.
I have no idea what language I should learn... (Originally Posted: 05/18/2011)
I guess I have to take 4 semesters of a foreign language and I've never even thought about learning a language before I was told I had to... I really don't give a shit which one I should learn. What language should I learn?
I'm thinkin, atm, that I just want to stay in the US and not move anywhere... although I always thought Japan would be kind of cool, but I've never even been there so I would hate to just show up sometime and hate it.
Should I just take a language that makes me just a teensy weensy bit more marketable for business jobs? I've heard Brazil is on the rise and I think it would be pretty cool to go there too.
I don't know... wtf do I do? Portuguese? Mandarin? Japanese? Marklar? Is there any big advantages to learning a specific one?
Asking me what language I'd like to learn is like asking me which marble I like the most out of a jar of identical marbles... I'm pretty lost.
Japanese is a pain in the ass you have to learn a whole new alphabet. I would advise against this unless you're seriously dedicated to learning the language
Given that China may have the largest GDP in the world in 10 yrs, maybe you should take Mandarin...
all the languages you want to learn are hard....ie chinese russian japanese arabic
Learning marklar is actually quite marklar, all you marklar is marklar the word marklar into your marklar so that other marklar can marklar what you're marklar.
Do Mandarin, it's a lot of fun and obviously incredibly useful. Chinese teachers assume foreigners are pretty dumb, so classes often aren't too hard.
I went with spanish - they're slated to become 1/3 of America soon.....
My friends who studied Mandarin found it incredibly time consuming and difficult. If you aren't looking to study the language to the point of fluency, it will do little to improve your business marketability. Also, if you aren't truly interested in learning the language, you WILL struggle to retain what you'll learn.
Based on the above, I suggest you go as simple as it gets. Stick with one of Spanish/Portuguese/French/Italian as it will likely be the most painless for you.
If you intend on continuing this language till you are fluent,choose Mandarin,I believe it will give you a unique advantage.But if it is only for a few quarters,then its not worth it,its very difficult language,You should choose a european,much easier to learn.I would prefer spanish,the second most spoken language after chinese.
french. will also get you laid... spanish is annoying and ur gonna look like a mexican
русский язык and espanol are solid choices. You should be able to gain a basic fluency in spanish or portuguese within four semesters if you take it seriously. Anything not utilizing the latin alphabet is most likely going to require more time to learn.
I STRONGLY recommend German. It is very easy to pick up if English is your native language. It's also quite useful for finance. I became conversational in German in four months.
Hmmmm... thanks for the input guys.
German sounds convincing but I'm thinkin Portuguese... I'll be going for computer sciences so I don't think I should pair that up with learning another hard ass language like Japanese/Mandarin/etc.
German
Do German. Incredibly logical and simple to learn. Basically I got fluent in high school to the point where I speak with my friends from Berlin in German only. I would highly suggest this.
Is German really that much easier than Portuguese? If so... I'm probably gonna do it.
Arabic FTW haha
If I was in the same situation as you, I would probably choose German/French since they share the same alphabet with english language (almost). Chinese takes a really long time to be very fluent, just like Arabic.
You got to UM right? My friend has taken a couple German classes there so far and likes it.
Yeah I'll be transferring in the fall... It's kinda shitty how I have to factor in my gpa when making this decision but whatever... I'll just teach myself Portuguese if I want to bad enough. I'm mostly German anyways and Oktoberfest has been on my bucket list for a lil while now, so it'll be nice to know how to talk to the locals when I go haha
BTW Germans speak impeccable English, maybe the best in Europe besides the Dutch. I haven't done business in Germany, but I feel like everybody just speaks English there anyway.
ROFLMAO at all the commentary on German.
German grammar is possible the most difficult of latin alphabet based languages.
Getting it to a conversational level is entirely useless since most ppl in Germany speak english at conversational plus level.
And you won't be able to get it to a business written level without doing some serious time. Like fkin loads of time.
I mean if you don't care about later uses of language then yeah go for german, similar enuff to english in speaking and easy to pick up.
But in terms of longterm use it's the most useless option brought up in this thread so far.
I agree that learning German as an English native is not too worthwhile. The German education system is brutal compared to the US system -- I believe students must pick up a 3rd language in the 9th grade or so. I've spent time in Germany and everyone did seem to know English very well.
Well wtf... I'd like to be able to keep my gpa up but I don't want to learn something that's completely useless.
How's the difficulty of Portuguese vs. German?
beside asian languages french portuguese german italian
i'd stay away from spanish (useless)
Yea German is not easy (without having learned it) cuz it has not only masculine and feminine, but also neuter.
French is not easy either, unless you're simply trying to speak at an elementary level.
As a French native speaker, I can tell you that French is not that easy to learn since many French ppl make grammar mistakes when they talk.
Basically, the vocabular parts / idioms etc are pretty much similar to those in Spanish / Italian & other Latin languages but the verb tenses and the conjugating system are pretty confusing even for us. Plus, there are so many ways to write the same syllab which makes it difficult to spell words properly.
It's still much easier than Japanese, Chinese or Arabic (I can relate on this since I'm intermediate in Japanese, beginner in Chinese and advanced in spoken Arabic)
Best way to learn foreign language? (Originally Posted: 09/19/2012)
Transferring overseas for a decent increase that requires me to learn French and/or Spanish.
Best way to learn? I've been hearing Rosetta Stone but just like to make sure I'm not missing anything.
Find yourself a French and/or Spanish wife and/or girlfriend.
Or mistress.
I was looking to learn Dutch as I speak Deutsche almost fluently and I can tell you Rosetta stone is the best tool to learn a foreign language. Keep in mind though, you got to go through the sessions once everyday for a couple of hours to really master a language in say six to eighth months at best.
Read up at antimoon.com and alljapaneseallthetime.com
Sites built for English and Japanese learners, respectively, but the same tactics can be used for other languages.
Here is my way: On average though - it take 4-6months of serious study of grammar, where you spend 30 mins at least 5 times a week. At about 3 months start immersing yourself with radio, TV, music (both Spanish and French are easy in terms of good TV and Music). At 7-9 months pick up your first book - For Spanish choose Paulo Coelho, who uses about 200 words in Portuguese and translated to Spanish is very easy to read. For French its difficult to choose an easy book, since everything written in French is difficult. Maybe an Agatha Cristie translation could work. From 6 months on wards start stepping over the fear to speak in front of natives and this way by 10-12 months you will be speaking! Seriously works.
No but seriously, get yourself a girlfriend who speaks that language. Also, I would recommend Rosetta Stone, and/or taking classes at a community college.
Good luck!
Once you are over there, you should pick up the language in no time.
Learning Languages online for free (Originally Posted: 01/20/2013)
Just wanted to post a link to a web app that I think many of you monkeys would appreciate. I'm a big fan of self-learning and Duolingo is one of the best free online language learning tools out there.
It's a great supplementary tool for learning several romance languages as well as German. Furthermore, according to this study (Dotcom/2013/01/17/study-learning-spanish-with-duolingo-can-be-more-effective-than-college-classes-or-rosetta-stone/" rel="nofollow">http://techcrunchDotcom/2013/01/17/study-learning-spanish-with-duolin…), you'd likely be making more efficient use of your time using this than a college course or Rosetta Stone.
I hope I don't have to explain how learning new languages is extremely beneficial to several facets of one's life.
*disclaimer: I have absolutely no connection to Duolingo. I'm just an avid user.
This is awesome! I forwarded it off to a friend of mine who teaches Spanish.
Duolingo is amazing. So is LiveMocha
Also try Rosetta Stone via TPB.
Just spent an hour on Duolingo brushing up on my french. Great resource!
Definitely a great refresher tool for those rusty language skills! I hope more people discover it, these guys deserve the success.
Great post. Although, not sure its on the same level as Rosetta or anything but valuable resource.
I thought I'd bump this up - has anyone used DuoLingo to a great extent by now? I am wondering whether this is actually a viable source to learn a new language?
Learning a new language (Originally Posted: 01/22/2014)
Currently I am a college student looking to go into sales and trading who has some free time. Im looking to learn either a language or a programming language. At present I'm not fluent in any extra languages and don't know any programming languages. What would you recommend I learn in my free time?
Also interested in this. If you were to learn another language - how would you go about doing this? Anyone have a successful way of self-teaching something like French?
I heard good things about http://www.codecademy.com/ (I think Eddie wrote a post about it) for programming and Duolingo (http://www.duolingo.com/) for learning a new language. It actually won app of the year.
Anyways, I wouldn't spend too much time and effort trying to learn a new language for work related purposes. Sure, it might help with simple client interactions, but at the end of the day when there are millions at stake for a deal who do you think will receive the edge. A native born speaker or someone who has been learning the language for a few years?
i like duolingo a lot, easy to use, helped with some aspects of spanish i was missing. if you really want to learn a language (but can't immerse yourself in the culture) would definitely recommend getting a private tutor
Learning a 2nd Language while working FT (Originally Posted: 07/16/2015)
Hello everyone,
I have searched through the forums extensively trying to find some advice or answers for learning a language while working FT as an analyst at a BB. I want to learn as a large portion of my family lives in France, however I have not had the opportunity to learn French somehow.
If anyone has any experience learning a second language while working I would love to hear what worked and if it was even possible to attain fluency after 2-3 years.
Thank you.
the only way to get fluent is immersion. if you're working full time the best you can do is 5 levels of rosetta stone and maybe a language based meetup. if I were you however, I'd just make it a point to visit your family once or twice a year while you're studying.
I studied Spanish for 10 years between middle & high school plus college, and the best I was on my game was when I was in LatAm having to do something like negotiate cab fare, talk on the phone, ask for help in a grocery store, etc., not when you're hitting the books. so yes, study is important, but make sure you spend some time in French speaking parts of the world as well.
It is not easy. I do not work in investment banking, but I'm in a management role at a F500 with a wife & kids, long commute, etc. Right now I try to get in an hour of rosetta stone each day plus I meet one-on-one with a language instructor two nights a week for 1.5 hrs each meeting, with a conversational focus during the meetings.
I've been doing this for just over a month and have only picked up basic phrases at this point, but I'm hoping to be fluent within a year. The obvious best way to learn a new language quickly is to live somewhere where you're forced to speak and listen to it daily, but if that's not an option then surrounding yourself with the language as much as possible is best. Set your iphone to play music in french, watch TV in french with english subtitles, find someone you can consistently practice speaking the language with, etc.
A big part of the learning (at least for me) is being willing to step outside of your comfort zone and be willing to make mistakes while talking to people who are fluent. You become better in speaking a new language in the same way you become better at anything else - through constant practice and repetition. Good luck!
Stepping out of your comfort zone is so important. I second that as probably the most important thing you can do. Don't be afraid to look like an idiot.
There were times when I spoke about as well as an unintelligent 3 year old, but I would still go talk to that cute girl or try to set up my phone plan (literally took me 5 different stores before I got a phone and a monthly plan).
This is part of the reason I think kids learn so well... They don't care if they sound stupid. They couldn't care less. We, within reason, shouldn't either.
Thank you for the comments you two. I have heard immersion is the best thing. I am a first hand believer as I have stayed in Europe for a brief few months at one point in my life. Since I am starting this summer that is not possible unfortunately.
It sounds like supplementing tutoring with software such as Rosetta Stone is the best move? I will also have the ability to speak on the phone with the some family members occasionally which may be a big help.
Also, how do you keep the motivation up to continue the process? I will probably have some late nighters coming up.
motivation comes from within. you could also book a trip to tahiti (french is the official language) and that way you have sort of a deadline. just find whatever works for you, but kudos on doing it, learning a foreign language really helps so many parts of your brain.
As mentioned above, immersion is key. In order to gain fluency (or close to it, I believe true fluency takes years) you will need to be surrounded by the language constantly. This will force you to utilize the language outside of your comfort level in all types of scenarios, which increases your ability exponentially.
Lived in Spain for a year with undergrad classes and a finance internship in Spanish. Even after that, I wouldn't call myself truly fluent, however I can hold my own in any conversation and read/write/listen at a very high level. This also came after taking Spanish classes in school for years, so I started from a stronger base.
This isn't intended to discourage you, as the steps you are taking will provide you with a solid base knowledge that will be very helpful for whenever you find the opportunity to immerse yourself (even if only for a few weeks).
Motivation is the toughest part. Signing up for language training classes could be a good step because you'd be committed to going each week and it is a bit more "forced" versus less formal self study. There are definitely nights where I'm exhausted and studying a foreign language is the last thing I want to do, but I go to the classes anyway because I feel obligated/committed. It's also helpful because the instructor will more than likely be monitoring your progress and will expect you to improve each week, so you have someone motivating you and holding you accountable.
Patience is key too. Don't expect to become fluent overnight and try not to get frustrated if your progress is slower than what you expect. Just set small goals each week such as putting in an hour a day of self-study along with some classes, and take it one day at a time.
Industry84, do you mind me asking how long you have been at it and what's it been like on top of working? Also what kind of progress have you made since starting? Just curious.
I will probably end up going with Rosetta Stone for an hour a night and then try to find a tutor in the area!
Practice everyday. Since I work in retail I hear Spanish all day so I now speak it enough that they understand.
As an analyst you won't have the time. You need to study 1-2hrs/day, write down words/phrases throughout the day that you don't know in that language and practice with other people, preferably native speakers. I'm fluent in four languages, for whatever it's worth.
Try Duolingo, and there's an app I believe. I've considered importing Portuguese flashcards onto my phone for review on the 40 minute commute to my internship as well using Quizlet, which would probably work. If you're doing a romance language, an hour a day for a year could probably do it, but something like Mandarin or Japanese would take much, much longer. Also, if you still have access to your undergraduate online resources, you might be able to use Mango or Rosetta Stone for free, neither of which I've tried, but I've heard good things. Mango goes up to the equivalent of the second year college coursework of a language.
(This is too long, but its something I had to figure out and think is working. So I wrote it as much for myself as anyone who reads it)
I grew up monolingual and now speak one other language fluently (not finance fluent...but interned in marketing in the language for a summer without too much difficulty) and another conversationally (long term relationship - wanted to speak with her family). So, I know its possible for us to learn a language, but I also know that....
Immersion is the best thing... A student lifestyle in a foreign country will get you to basic fluency in less than a year, and conversational much faster. You probably won't be fluent no matter how much you study until you spend a while in the country. But that doesn't matter for you and me now, does it? We don't have that option.
You know how there are those guys that wake up at 5-6am everyday no matter what and go work out - you have to be that with the language. Get in a routine and make it easy on yourself to start out. Wake up early everyday and do 30 min of something. If that is too much, 20 minutes a day while walking/commuting to work. 20minutes while jogging. Pick something easy at first, something you are 100% sure you can do everyday, and just do that. Prove to yourself you can do that and then reevaluate if you can add more time. If not, so be it.
Let's also remember that we work 80+ hours a week, so I think we need to reign in expectations here. People tend to overestimate what they can accomplish in the short-term (and then give up) and underestimate what they can do in the long term.
So, make your long term goals sound impossible. The kind of impossible you would be embarrassed to tell other people about, but make your short term goals super easy. Do weekly goals. "This week I want to be able to tell someone about my hometown". "This week I want to tell people about my hobby" "This week I want to be able to talk about cold weather"... If you have 3 years, you have 156 mini goals that will drive you forward.
My goals, for example: LT: GF wants to move back to her home country after 3 years. I want to go from conversational to working-fluent before then while living in the USA. ST this week: I want to be able to talk about email.
And then, just find a program that you like and do it. Try to make it fun, try to talk to your French family members when you can, text with them, go to french restaurants, date a french girl/guy etc, but just keep doing those daily sessions.
Also, I hate Rosetta Stone. I have not met a single person who said "I learned with Rosetta Stone" that can hold any kind of a conversation (Disclaimer: I deal with Asian languages - Rosetta might be better for romance languages due to similarities with English). Check out Anki (vocab only), FluentU(newer, but I think I like it), Youtube for T.V. shows, podcasts, Glossika(Some people hate it, some love it), LingQ, Pimsleur, language specific websites, etc. There is a lot free/cheap stuff out there... Rosetta Stone.
So, good luck.
If you could be proficient in one other language besides English, what would it be? (Originally Posted: 12/26/2016)
Would you pick up a language that's helpful for employment, or would you want to speak a language for another reason? Is business proficiency in Chinese increasingly becoming a boon for job candidates?
I know a few 2nd gen. people in America who wish they were better at their mother tongue because they don't feel as connected with their culture. On the other hand, I know breaking into M&A and/or PE in many countries hinges on proficiency in the local language.
Interesting question. Given that things are much easier if you actually enjoy something, I'd go for a language that you enjoy, because you maybe have some kind of interest in the country where its spoken etc. so that you don't only have a professional benefit but potentially also a private benefit.
Spanish, I live in the southwest, took 4 years of it, and can barely order food at Taco Bell.
German. I took two years in college, and I enjoy speaking it a good bit, but I was never near fluent. Also I think the Economist named it like the most valuable second language out there, so I guess there's that
Interesting that German is considered the most valuable second language. Isn't the scope of use limited compared to Chinese or Hindi? I suppose that after English it is the most valuable business language in Europe.
Spanish. It would be easier to practice simply because of all Spanish speakers already in the U.S. Plus, it's a Romance language, so learning the rest of the Romance languages should be easier once one is fluent in one of them.
I speak french and while i literally never use it, i'm glad i have it rather than not being proficient in another language
Chinese, eh? Which of they 8 major dialects are you referring to?
English, French, Mandarin, Farsi, Spanish are probably the best to speak. E.g. Everyone in Europe speaks French but not Italian or German. Go to Africa and French or English is your best bet, especially in North and West Coastal Africa.
Only the French speak French. The real reason to learn it is that those snail eating slimy bastards refuse to learn English to a decent level
By Chinese I meant Mandarin. I've heard that even in HK, Mandarin is increasingly popular in M&A and other client facing roles. Also, I believe if you know Mandarin then picking up Shanghainese is easier, because the main differences lie in pronunciation. That said, I know from first-hand experience that doesn't make picking it up easy. Do you speak Chinese?
I am proficient in 4 European languages and want to beef up some more with Spanish, Mandarin, Arabic & Russian. The older you get the harder it is so it now takes me 1-2 years to learn a new language vs. 6 months when i was younger.
Javascript.
Klingon
Spanish.
mandarin chinese
Mandarin. Possibly French as well.
Latin, obviously
C
1) Russian - Wife and her family are Russian. Also, I considering somewhat seriously looking to invest directly in Russian Upstream Sector. We'll see what my boy Rex leaves for the rest of us.
2) Chinese - I think a major confrontation with China will happen in the next 50 years. I would like to be involved in some way
3) Spanish - Yo Estudie por siete anos en la escuala, pero no sabe mas que este palabaras y como se dice chinga tu madre.
I'm confused. Aren't you still in college?
I'm nearly fluent in Russian. Its a beautiful language, I could listen to natives speaking it all day. For your second point: you may consider adding Arabic to the list as a shorter term goal as we'll either A: continue to be in conflict with those areas or B: it could be an investing opportunity A being the most likely. Spanish is incredibly useful for me living in Texas. I love their culture and its cool to be able to communicate with individuals who primarily speak Spanish.
Chinese - major single market, and hardest to master. The Chinese often appreciate greatly efforts made by foreigners to learn Mandarin. Cantonese imo is dying out. Arabic - Huge number of investors in the Middle East who know English, but would lean favourably towards someone who speaks in their language. Hard to learn though. Spanish - To immerse in LatAm culture and experience it to the fullest. Also useful in Cal. Being able to read Neruda and Borges. C++ - The bedrock for programming languages. But you can't stop there. Python - Easily the most flexible, and increasingly the most important, in coding today.
Python is essentially just English syntax with programming static semantics.
Chinese is hard to learn - 4000 characters and even fluent Chinese speakers can't spell basic words without the help of a computer. They use the latin alphabet to write in Chinese. Most of you do not remember, but Japan was the equivalent of China couple decades ago, at that time everyone was saying that learning Japanese was the way to go. Unfortunately it is a variation of Chinese and again extremely hard to learn. So no, Mandarin and Japanese are not the way to go. By all mean if you have a passion for it do learn Mandarin, if you have the patience go for it, but I believe there are better languages to learn.
Spanish is great if you want to work in Latin America, and by extension Portuguese is relatively easy to learn once you master Spanish. But again it is quite geographically limited.
French - this is the one language you want to learn if you intend on getting out of the American continent. Since the lost of their empire they have worked hard on installing "la Francophonie", a club that brings more than 50 countries together including Belgium, Switzerland, Lebanon, most of Western Africa, Cambodia, Vietnam, even Egypt etc... You should not think just of France for French - but there is a massive world of countries speaking French out there. The truest global language is English, but the second one is French. Now if you just need to order a burrito at Taco Bell you might be better off learning Spanish...
Hmm, I don't think it's fair to condemn China to the same fate as Japan. Japan and China share very little in common besides a recent history and geography. I think for one thing, China's aggressive lending and investing under the One Belt, One Road policy should not be ignored. On the other hand, in most foreign countries formerly occupied by France, French is not the official language or even commonly spoken. Further, both Vietnam and Cambodia are arguably moving away from the American sphere of influence towards that of China.
I wasn't alive when Japan was considered the next, most important part of the world, but I do know that China's rise has been more strategic and aggressive than Japan's, which I think hints at a staying power for China that will make learning the language valuable long-term.
Also, speaking of difficult languages to learn, French is pretty high up there. :D
I think I wanted to stress more the fact that the language is damn near impossible to become fluent in without a proper investment in it. The similarity with Japan has to do with its super power status. Japan is still the 3rd largest economy in the world, yet its language is not one of the major "global" languages in the world - yes there are less Japanese people than Chinese globally, but I believe it is wrong to think that Mandarin will ever become a "global" language. (Sorry to be using the term global language, i just don't know what else to use).
For Cambodia and Vietnam you are probably right, and the young generation does not speak much French if at all - but my understanding is that it is still the language of the elite over there. And yea French is definitely not easy to learn :) But at least you don't have to be an artist to write it like you would in Mandarin!
For those of you who are born multi-lingual, I would focus on brushing up on your mother tongue. Let's face it... aside from English, most people in the industry don't use any other language.
For those who are learning a new language from scratch: I would echo those saying you need to have a passion for it. It's not easy, and it takes a lot of time. Think about the opportunity cost.
Source: I can personally speak 3 languages. I can understand about 5. I'm brushing up on one, but I knew how to speak it when I was younger. Even while going through the lessons, I can't help but observe how challenging it would be, for someone without firsthand experience, trying to learn it from scratch.
My dog understands 5 languages as well - does not mean I'll hire him...
Sign language, this smoke show in the building uses it when she sees me walking by with my fiancée. She holds her arm at a 90 degree angle at shoulder height, and cups her hand into an O shape, then moves it back and forth by her face.
Improve on my Japanese because I'm second gen but can't read or write for shit.
Also Mandarin, maybe Cantonese too, if I get the job in Hong Kong (interviewing for FI S&T so I heard its not an immediate deal breaker).
I'm fluent in Spanish and Japanese. They're definitely marketable languages, but it's a lot of work. I learned Spanish at a young age, and learned Japanese for personal reasons. Their marketability was an afterthought.
They don't call them romance languages for no reason. Already know some French, so I'd add some Italian to the roster
Also, just lol at people saying they want to learn Mandarin or some chit. How about you stop thinking about work for three seconds
easy for you to say Mr. Asset Management Vice President. I'd learn Spanish & Mandarin for utility. Would love to learn French just because.
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