MD Invited Me For Dinner...Part 2

(See part 1 here)

So after I read everything and thought about it, I decided to have dinner with him. I just really didn't want to miss the chance of getting to know this person, and if I say NO this time, considering his busy schedule and stuff, there won't be another chance..
Just got back from the restaurant...

Maybe I did overthink about his intention, but clearly he was not interested in my "intellectual" side or potential as a commodities trader.

After 10 or 15 minutes, he said "commodities trading has been and will be men's business" and also he mentioned "trading is not a rocket science. We don't need smart people like you. It is helpful but to have a degree from MIT or Caltech will never get you a job in this business."

I think he just wanted to have a dinner at a nice restaurant...

And brag about himself. Entire dinner, all he did was telling me he is hanging out with princes from Saudi in London and he is a long-term guest in one of their islands, his connection with Marc Rich, etc. Interesting story indeed, but hearing it for 3 hours made me bored eventually.

And...he told me "you are really attractive" at least 5 times. I counted till 5 and then I stopped. As soon as I discovered that he is not interested in me as a future colleague, I tried my best to avoid this topic. Good grief, he brought back this topic over and over!!
(One example. We were talking about olive oil - because the one served at dinner was unbelievably good- and I told him my sister's friend has probably the best olive farm(? or whatever that makes olive oil...) in Spain (This is true, btw) Then he asked me "Is your sister attractive like you?" GOSH)

After dinner, he asked me what am I gonna do and I had to head back to school actually so I said I was gonna take a subway, he wanted to give me a ride but I politely rejected, saying "taking a subway is really my favorite thing to do in NYC."

I will write him a thank you email because I ordered lots of expensive stuff and drank a very nice wine. Not sure if I will see him again or if he wants to see me again, but I hope not to see him again for this nature of meeting... It was not a date but clearly not a dinner to give some advice for a young graduate...

Anyway it was interesting yet disappointing dinner....

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Comments (75)

May 8, 2013 - 11:40pm

So...the dinner didn't turn out exactly the way you wanted to...but ultimately no harm was done.

Personally, I think you made the right move in accepting his dinner invitation. Sorry it didn't work out. Good luck.

May 8, 2013 - 11:54pm

You played this perfectly. You got a funny story about a guy who's ego is out of check and a nice dinner. Even if there was only a 10% chance this guy wasn't going to be a douche like he turned out to be this was worth it. Thanks for following up and I'm sorry that this misogynistic dick wasted your time.

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May 9, 2013 - 12:04am

Great to have the follow up post! And I'm sorry it didn't turn out to be very beneficial for you and that you had to sit through dinner with such an egomaniac.

The error of confirmation: we confirm our knowledge and scorn our ignorance.
May 9, 2013 - 12:06am

Right on, OP. I think you did exactly the right thing. And hopefully it opened your eyes to the business a little bit. In one sense you saw that this is a testosterone driven business, so to speak. On the other hand, you probably also got to see that your competition isn't full of rocket scientists, as he put it. There's nothing to be intimidated about intellectually. If you're a natural born salesman you'll excel in this business. If you are just an Excel wizard you won't get too far off the trading floor. You "manned" up here. Says a lot about you.

May 9, 2013 - 2:37am

DCDepository:

Right on, OP. I think you did exactly the right thing. And hopefully it opened your eyes to the business a little bit. In one sense you saw that this is a testosterone driven business, so to speak. On the other hand, you probably also got to see that your competition isn't full of rocket scientists, as he put it. There's nothing to be intimidated about intellectually. If you're a natural born salesman you'll excel in this business. If you are just an Excel wizard you won't get too far off the trading floor. You "manned" up here. Says a lot about you.


Thanks for sharing your insights. The fact that there is a very few women in this field who can mentor me sucks. But I never wanted to be a man and don't even try to be a man... I will never be one.

Being a woman, if done correctly, is a valuable asset in this business, I think...

May 9, 2013 - 1:54pm

DCDepository:

In one sense you saw that this is a testosterone driven business, so to speak.

Quite the opposite in my opinion. This highlights how many weak, hollow, insecure men there are in this industry. Real men that actually are "driven by testosterone" can usually attract women without using bait and switch tactics or leveraging a superior career position.

  • 1
May 9, 2013 - 4:03pm

labanker:

DCDepository:

In one sense you saw that this is a testosterone driven business, so to speak.

Quite the opposite in my opinion. This highlights how many weak, hollow, insecure men there are in this industry. Real men that actually are "driven by testosterone" can usually attract women without using bait and switch tactics or leveraging a superior career position.

What I mean is that it's 1) an overwhelmingly male industry and 2) testosterone is what drives the sex drives of both men and women. Since sex and sexuality is going to be on a man's mind pretty much 95+% of the time, male dominated industries are going to be bizarre experiences for women to work in. And finance attracts a different kind of male than other male dominated industries, such as engineering, because top finance players are salesmen at their core. You don't become an MD by being an Excel wiz--you become an MD because you can develop business and build relationships.

May 9, 2013 - 4:10pm

DCDepository:

labanker:

DCDepository:
In one sense you saw that this is a testosterone driven business, so to speak.

Quite the opposite in my opinion. This highlights how many weak, hollow, insecure men there are in this industry. Real men that actually are "driven by testosterone" can usually attract women without using bait and switch tactics or leveraging a superior career position.

What I mean is that it's 1) an overwhelmingly male industry and 2) testosterone is what drives the sex drives of both men and women. Since sex and sexuality is going to be on a man's mind pretty much 95+% of the time, male dominated industries are going to be bizarre experiences for women to work in. And finance attracts a different kind of male than other male dominated industries, such as engineering, because top finance players are salesmen at their core. You don't become an MD by being an Excel wiz--you become an MD because you can develop business and build relationships.

As much as I love equality, this is true.

May 9, 2013 - 4:13pm

DCDepository:

labanker:

DCDepository:
In one sense you saw that this is a testosterone driven business, so to speak.

Quite the opposite in my opinion. This highlights how many weak, hollow, insecure men there are in this industry. Real men that actually are "driven by testosterone" can usually attract women without using bait and switch tactics or leveraging a superior career position.

What I mean is that it's 1) an overwhelmingly male industry and 2) testosterone is what drives the sex drives of both men and women. Since sex and sexuality is going to be on a man's mind pretty much 95+% of the time, male dominated industries are going to be bizarre experiences for women to work in. And finance attracts a different kind of male than other male dominated industries, such as engineering, because top finance players are salesmen at their core. You don't become an MD by being an Excel wiz--you become an MD because you can develop business and build relationships.

Agree. He said commodities trading is actually all about politics and sales and is quite different from what I imagined it to be... Arbitrages, hedging etc are important aspects of building a successful trading firm, but not as important as having a good talker.

May 9, 2013 - 1:01am

sl3539:

After 10 or 15 minutes, he said "commodities trading has been and will be men's business"

Really? Maybe someone should introduce him to Ms. Jenny Fan:

http://www.forbes.com/special-report/2012/30-under-30/30-under-30_finan…

Although he might have a point that MIT/Caltech PhDs are over-educated for this business. Ms. Fan appears to derive much of her alpha by skyping with farmers...

Too late for second-guessing Too late to go back to sleep.
  • 1
May 9, 2013 - 1:11am

brandon st randy:

sl3539:

After 10 or 15 minutes, he said "commodities trading has been and will be men's business"

Really? Maybe someone should introduce him to Ms. Jenny Fan:

http://www.forbes.com/special-report/2012/30-under...

Although he might have a point that MIT/Caltech PhDs are over-educated for this business. Ms. Fan appears to derive much of her alpha by skyping with farmers...

"taking a subway is really my favorite thing to do in NYC."

Then you are in good companies. John Paulson and Michael Bloomberg are both regular NYC subway riders. Paulson takes the 6 to work and the 6 transfer to 7 to catch the LIRR to the Hamptons while Bloomberg used to take the 6 at 77th to his office at 59th before he became mayor. Now he catches the express at 59th as he needs to go all the way to CitiHall. Maybe he will revert back to the good old 6 train routine after finishing off his 3rd term...

Too late for second-guessing Too late to go back to sleep.
  • 3
May 9, 2013 - 1:40am

brandon st randy:

brandon st randy:
sl3539:

After 10 or 15 minutes, he said "commodities trading has been and will be men's business"

Really? Maybe someone should introduce him to Ms. Jenny Fan:

http://www.forbes.com/special-report/2012/30-under...

Although he might have a point that MIT/Caltech PhDs are over-educated for this business. Ms. Fan appears to derive much of her alpha by skyping with farmers...

"taking a subway is really my favorite thing to do in NYC."

Then you are in good companies. John Paulson and Michael Bloomberg are both regular NYC subway riders. Paulson takes the 6 to work and the 6 transfer to 7 to catch the LIRR to the Hamptons while Bloomberg used to take the 6 at 77th to his office at 59th before he became mayor. Now he catches the express at 59th as he needs to go all the way to CitiHall. Maybe he will revert back to the good old 6 train routine after finishing off his 3rd term...


Well, if you live and work near subway stations, why bother contending with traffic?
May 9, 2013 - 2:22am

.

All we need to do is show a little class, a little sophistication, and we’re in like a dirty shirt.
May 9, 2013 - 2:11pm

brandon st randy:

sl3539:

After 10 or 15 minutes, he said "commodities trading has been and will be men's business"

Really? Maybe someone should introduce him to Ms. Jenny Fan:

http://www.forbes.com/special-report/2012/30-under...

Although he might have a point that MIT/Caltech PhDs are over-educated for this business. Ms. Fan appears to derive much of her alpha by skyping with farmers...

Guy also must have forgot about Blythe Masters. JPM MD at age 28 isn't half bad. Oh, and she also created the credit default swap.

I would agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong.
  • 3
May 12, 2013 - 6:18pm

rogersterling59:

brandon st randy:

sl3539:
After 10 or 15 minutes, he said "commodities trading has been and will be men's business"

Really? Maybe someone should introduce him to Ms. Jenny Fan:
http://www.forbes.com/special-report/2012/30-under...
Although he might have a point that MIT/Caltech PhDs are over-educated for this business. Ms. Fan appears to derive much of her alpha by skyping with farmers...

Guy also must have forgot about Blythe Masters. JPM MD at age 28 isn't half bad. Oh, and she also created the credit default swap.

That woman is the Steve Jobs of credit derivatives.

Morpheus: Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?
  • 2
May 9, 2013 - 2:08am

sl3539:

And...he told me "you are really attractive" at least 5 times. I counted till 5 and then I stopped.

Then he asked me "Is your sister attractive like you?"

If one of the Rich boys, aka deca-millionaire commodities trader, was THIS into the OP's looks, I think it's about time OP...

posted a pic or gtfo

All we need to do is show a little class, a little sophistication, and we’re in like a dirty shirt.
May 9, 2013 - 12:21pm

CoochieMane:

Send him your resume in the thank you email anyway.

No harm done. This sounds more like a win-win; how was your entree?

I'd say shoot him your resume and email as well and push a little harder on the "anyone you know in x, y, or z field/industry,company that I might be able to talk with would be great/ be hired by" in not so many words.

Honestly pushing him to leverage his connections to other powerful people would also totally be worth trying and chances are most professional colleagues in the industry won't act as badly as him - either way leverage the hell out of the opportunity and if it doesn't work there's really no harm done anyway since you don't want to associate with him anymore anyway.

Again seems like just another win win.

"Money was never a big motivation for me, except as a way to keep score. The real excitement is playing the game." - Donald Trump
  • 2
May 9, 2013 - 3:54pm

LevFun:

CoochieMane:

Send him your resume in the thank you email anyway.
No harm done. This sounds more like a win-win; how was your entree?

I'd say shoot him your resume and email as well and push a little harder on the "anyone you know in x, y, or z field/industry,company that I might be able to talk with would be great/ be hired by" in not so many words.

Honestly pushing him to leverage his connections to other powerful people would also totally be worth trying and chances are most professional colleagues in the industry won't act as badly as him - either way leverage the hell out of the opportunity and if it doesn't work there's really no harm done anyway since you don't want to associate with him anymore anyway.

Again seems like just another win win.

THIS is exactly what you should do.
I find it very disconcerting that he had the balls to sit down and tell you a commodities desk is and always will be a men's business.

May 9, 2013 - 10:59am

Fuck that tool.

[quote]The HBS guys have MAD SWAGGER. They frequently wear their class jackets to boston bars, strutting and acting like they own the joint. They just ooze success, confidence, swagger, basically attributes of alpha males.[/quote]
May 9, 2013 - 11:00am

sl3539:

I will write him a thank you email because I ordered lots of expensive stuff and drank a very nice wine. .


He will most likely expense it under networking related stuff...
May 9, 2013 - 11:09am

Sounds like a total creep. Sorry it didn't work out as planned.

Blue horseshoe loves Anacott Steel
May 9, 2013 - 12:10pm

epoch707:

Please, women have always used pussy power to get what they want.

"Every man should lose a battle in his youth, so he does not lose a war when he is old"
May 9, 2013 - 11:57am

Damn, that must have been awkward. At least you played it cool.

Super Nintendo, Sega Genesis - when I was dead broke man I couldn't picture this
May 9, 2013 - 12:39pm

awesome that u went beyond your comfort zone to have dinner with the MD, pretty good moves to ensure your safety as well. All the best as you continue networking.

May 9, 2013 - 12:43pm

This whole post is hysterical, and not in a disrespectful way to the OP. Of course it was obvious from the beginning what the dude was looking for. Commodities guys tend to be a little more rough around the edges than most wall street guys, but 97% of us are looking for one thing. It does tend to be more of a man's world here but i've known a few successful (and attractive) female commodities traders, not many,. but some. You did the right thing by going, being respectful and preserving your dignity. If you play this slow (think long con, without it really being a con) you can still have this guy in your corner when you get done with school. Don't start pestering him with requests any time soon. Thank him, and play him a little, you NEVER know where his contacts can help you. It could well be in something other than commodities. He knows there's a game involved here and you should too. Play it and play it well, players respect players who respect themselves. You don't necessarily need a "genius degree" to be a successful commodity trader but I know plenty of MIT, Chicago, etc... in the business. Its getting harder and more competitive. If he's in his 50's, when he started out the requirements for commodity trading jobs then were much less than what they are today. It wasn't a big business and pretty much you just needed a pulse and the ability to learn on the job. Always network, always accept a meal at a great restaurant and most importantly ALWAYS maintain your self respect... if you don't, no one else will and your reputation is everything.

May 9, 2013 - 12:44pm

OP, props to you. I'm sorry that happened to you and it's unfortunate when a man's ambitions are achieved some of them become assholes. A friend of mine told me that one of her friends was promoted to MD. At his celebration party, he walked up to her and blatantly asked if she wanted to date him now. I would recommend the next course of action to email him and ask for more referrals. However, don't keep on going back to him for more contacts. He may feel like he's being used, ironically.

May 9, 2013 - 1:09pm

Hope you ordered dessert and ran the bill up. You should have also taken a meal to go because of the way he treated you.

Array

May 9, 2013 - 3:02pm

I wouldn't bother asking him for any referrals. Just me though. Plenty of other ways to get referrals and if you keep up the conversation with him, he may think his little meal worked. Unless you want it, then go for it babe.

********"Babies don't cost money, they MAKE money." - Jerri Blank********
May 9, 2013 - 3:29pm

karypto:

What was the MD wearing, how did he look? I'm guessing fat and old. But perhaps tall ... say 5'10?

not to nitpick (and totally off-point), but 5'10" is tall?

May 9, 2013 - 3:54pm

karypto:

What was the MD wearing, how did he look? I'm guessing fat and old. But perhaps tall ... say 5'10?


Not fat, younger looking but still no younger than late 40s.....
May 9, 2013 - 4:03pm

Is he American?

********"Babies don't cost money, they MAKE money." - Jerri Blank********
May 9, 2013 - 4:32pm

Thanks for following up. At least you got a nice dinner out of it and he got to talk about his favorite subject for a couple of hours.

Because when you're in a room full of smart people, smart suddenly doesn't matter—interesting is what matters.
May 9, 2013 - 4:38pm

r u really attractive? maybe he said so you feel more comfortable. i never told an attractive lady she is attractive

How big is yours?
May 9, 2013 - 4:44pm

Outsider:

r u really attractive? maybe he said so you feel more comfortable. i never told an attractive lady she is attractive

That is my point, exactly. Nobody says that....

May 9, 2013 - 5:38pm

sk8247365:

Why does nobody see that this is all BS?

Wha? I told her tits or gtfo bro...

All we need to do is show a little class, a little sophistication, and we’re in like a dirty shirt.
May 9, 2013 - 8:25pm

So can the OP refer this dinner date to me, so I can send his info to all my bitches? After I read the part " all he did was telling me he is hanging out with princes from Saudi in London and he is a long-term guest in one of their islands, his connection with Marc Rich, etc." to them, they all got wet already.
Of course, you played the "hard to get" strategy pretty well, but my bitches are different. They will just eat him alive

I'm just a humble clown. I juggle around just for a good laugh of yours.
May 9, 2013 - 10:14pm

I was thinking about what I would do if I was in a similar situation with a 40 something year old female MD who I thought I was networking with. Assume I was in my early twenties (and single) and she started coming on to me. I would have fucked her good even if she was a hag. Just to say I did.

I guess that pretty much proves we live in a world of double standards.

May 9, 2013 - 11:30pm

SirTradesaLot:

I was thinking about what I would do if I was in a similar situation with a 40 something year old female MD who I thought I was networking with. Assume I was in my early twenties (and single) and she started coming on to me. I would have fucked her good even if she was a hag. Just to say I did.

I guess that pretty much proves we live in a world of double standards.

So true. The best pussy are the ones that can actually end up paying you! I'll admit that I will take a bullet for the team to secure a large deal. Let that hag pay!!!!!!

May 10, 2013 - 3:11am

ST Monkey:

SirTradesaLot:

I was thinking about what I would do if I was in a similar situation with a 40 something year old female MD who I thought I was networking with. Assume I was in my early twenties (and single) and she started coming on to me. I would have fucked her good even if she was a hag. Just to say I did.
I guess that pretty much proves we live in a world of double standards.

So true. The best pussy are the ones that can actually end up paying you! I'll admit that I will take a bullet for the team to secure a large deal. Let that hag pay!!!!!!

What if I went further with this guy (going out few more times or having sex with him) and landed a job in the industry or got great contact. What would people think?
Assuming that I am pretty well qualified (but who aren't these days. Everyone is overqualified...)
So it is not like an art history major girl sitting next to you, talking about the new hot brunch spot in Williamsburg.

If guys are willing to fuck an ugly old lady to make a deal happen, isn't it the same anyway...?! Just really curious. I want to hear your opinion...!

May 10, 2013 - 10:31am

SirTradesaLot:

I was thinking about what I would do if I was in a similar situation with a 40 something year old female MD who I thought I was networking with. Assume I was in my early twenties (and single) and she started coming on to me. I would have fucked her good even if she was a hag. Just to say I did.

I guess that pretty much proves we live in a world of double standards.

Yeah then I'd prob order as much crap as possible as well.

May 9, 2013 - 11:22pm

I think if you read Jared Dillian's book it will give you more color on this guy. I am on the sales side of things and believe it or not a lot of my client outings are similar to what you had experienced.

Everyone is deep discounting nowadays and technology are usually similar with some exceptions of course. The one variable that can't be held by a set formula is relationship management. If you are attractive, you will bound to get these type of comments from clients and you just gotta be a big girl and know how to handle it.

May 12, 2013 - 12:57am

Sounds like this guy doesn't have much game (calling you attractive so many times is a dead giveaway). He's insecure despite his success and needs to name-drop and what not.

Assuming you have girl game, what you should do is lead him on and get him to buy you stuff. Ideally resale-able stuff like jewelry. You could at least get a job somewhere out of it most probably. :)

I knew a girl (with AMAZING girl game) who got herself a small fortune in jewels by dating ultra rich guys. She wouldn't even sleep with most of them (at least that's what she said). She'd go out on dates, get some gifts, then come by my house late at night and wear them while I railed her hahaha. I felt sorry for those dudes and I feel sorry for this guy that you went out to dinner with. Too many guys with lots of money don't know how to pick up a girl (instead shower them with compliments, gifts, etc. - not saying not to give those to girls, but you have to know/when how to do it).

May 12, 2013 - 11:41am

alexpasch:

Sounds like this guy doesn't have much game (calling you attractive so many times is a dead giveaway). He's insecure despite his success and needs to name-drop and what not.

Assuming you have girl game, what you should do is lead him on and get him to buy you stuff. Ideally resale-able stuff like jewelry. You could at least get a job somewhere out of it most probably. :)

I knew a girl (with AMAZING girl game) who got herself a small fortune in jewels by dating ultra rich guys. She wouldn't even sleep with most of them (at least that's what she said). She'd go out on dates, get some gifts, then come by my house late at night and wear them while I railed her hahaha. I felt sorry for those dudes and I feel sorry for this guy that you went out to dinner with. Too many guys with lots of money don't know how to pick up a girl (instead shower them with compliments, gifts, etc. - not saying not to give those to girls, but you have to know/when how to do it).

Don't think for a second she wasn't sleeping with them.

May 12, 2013 - 3:17pm

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May 13, 2013 - 10:44am

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