I'm sure you guys have heard this story by now of the Mom who wrote a letter advising all women at Princeton to marry their classmates before they graduate. The idea being that the dating pool will never be as strong as it is in school and women shouldn't date/marry someone who is inferior intellectually.
I'd like to point out that she has a son attending Princeton right now. This Mom basically cock-blocked her son for the remainder of his time there, I'm sure. Thanks Mom.
Discuss.
http://nymag.com/thecut/2013/03/princeton-mom-to-all-students-find-a-hu…
Compared to a female, aged 13-23, my sexual availability in that age range was limited. Aka I wasn't doing it much. So I should listen to mama bear? Bullshit. Now, post 23 .... my options are full: killer job, tall, and great social proof. Means to an end, perhaps, I know very well the next 10 years of my life I am in no position to trust women or their advice.
With all do respect, I'm not getting married anytime soon after having had witnessed the debauchery on both sides of the social/sexual spectrum. I'm sure my outlooks may change as I mature but with the lying and hookup culture that is widely expected, that Princeton wife of yours probably got slammed more times than you could imagine.
Before people start talking about double standards and all, I'm not hating. Just that I don't trust women after having had been with perfect 4.0 ivy leaguers who dumped me to then ask to be fuck buddys to the random girl who later told me she was a NYC whore (as well as a recently divorced MILF), and I won't even go into the married woman with a kid and a husband waiting for her outside a venue I went to, who took her clothes of in an enclosed area and shoved her snatch into my face as I gave oral at a club. Not sure if I'm jaded, or maturing, but women go crazy in their 20s. Maybe they mature later, I don't know. With the above snippets being a sample of what I experienced, I am in no shape going to marry anyone from my college or anyone for that matter anytime soon.
The social values my parents preached are non existent. As is this whole notion of getting married in college. Maybe in some parts of the world. I've been to Princeton, and the women are smart and wonderfull. But I've also partied with them. I'm not husband material. And they are not wife material. On more than one occasion a budy of mine bent over a hottie in the garage of a college party. Men especially, need to realize that this very well could have happened to their 'lovely wife.' And women lie, so it's something I may have to live with. Not like I would ever tell my future wife the crazy stories of tagged sluts I christened.
In 2013 it seems that hedonism wins over our hearts. I'm a supporter. The dating pool in college is a limited bubble of the real world. One of the best relationships I ever had was with a woman from half way around the world whose parents were farmers. Needless to say she wasn't from my college. To each their own.
tl;dr- college kids are in no shape to get married in this day and age, IMO. Spoken from random experiences which may or may not be the norm.
Nailed it.
And no, their values won't necessarily evolve as they get older. Stay single.
Not if you stick with the decent groups. Specifically, the Mormons. They got their shit together.
LOL never heard that term before.
Considering how Princeton girls are (supposedly) ugly, she probably suffers from that complex. The one where the mom gets jealous of her son's lover.
agree w/ karypto
That is just so sad.
Don't marry someone intellectually inferior? Every person I have ever met that thinks they are intellectually superior to someone else usually isn't. They are just assholes.
I'd consider this woman to fit the bill.
If you go to an Ivy, you are intellectually superior to the rest. Or so the story goes.
Read my comment about people thinking this really just being assholes.
Sell me your children
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvZgwtpPmLY
Are they allowed to date any major?
Also, she has to realize people go to Princeton because they didn't get into Harvard. And that if you don't major in
Marketing History Philosophy Sociology Gender Studies Management
You will be intellectually inferior regardless of school.
Men Age Like Wine Women Age Like Milk.
For women that is a very smart move. Her looks will go no where but south after the age of 21 or so. Lots of people have been up and arms over Kate Upton but you can see that she is hitting the wall hard. Its like a train is slowly approaching her face.
People can say all they want about valuing a girl's education but at the end of the day guys are first and foremost attracted to positive facial features. When you find out a guy is married you don't ask "What does she dooooo for a living" you always ask "Is she hot bro?"
For the men that article should be a GLARING sign NOT to get married when you're in college at Princeton. Your life is just beginning.
You're going to graduate make say 150K but that is going to grow at a 2x rate every 3-5 years if you're good (those are all rough numbers of course)
In summary if you guys are at princeton #1 Don't date princeton girls just go to a local community college #2 Don't lock down the first girl who lands in your lap in college.
That is a great article because for the first time its written by a woman pretty much admitting to the fact that guys will see nothing but pools open for them as they graduate and become well richer. Your pool datable women will continue to grow until your low thirties and plateau.
Being 29+ not married is not a death call. It's a smart decision for both your wallet and sex life.
I can't agree with this enough. Get married/have kids in mid-late 30s. You'll have your 40s to be active(ish) with your kids if you want. Don't have more than 2, any more than that and you can't give them enough attention, but I'd say 2 is the perfect number. Make sure she's early-mid 30s when you marry. That way you'll be able to get an idea of how she's going to age bahaha.
Oh, and all that other shit like personality compatibility.
In my mind, the best path is to find a woman that's about 10 years younger than you that wants to settle down. I figure I will be between 35 and 40 when I finally settle down and get married...a bit later than most because I spent 4 years in the Army and 1 year unemployed...so basically 5 years behind my age peer group.
Anyways, I have a buddy that's right around the same age as me (30). He's been married for several years now but the real discussion about having kids has been laid out before him. He wants kids and she wants kids, but he would love to wait another 5 years because of career choices and financial security, etc. Unfortunately she is only a year or two younger than he is, so that isn't likely going to happen because 35 is the mental cutoff for most women. She basically has another year before she has to put out her first one if they want to pad the age gap with a year or two before having their second and final one since she will be near, or have eclipsed that 35 age point.
If I'm realistically going to be 35 when I get married, I will need a girl several years younger than me so we won't hit that 'magic number' as we, hopefully, spend a few years traveling and enjoying an empty house together. Ideally, if I'm mid 30's she can be late 20's...which will hopefully put her at an age where she has some life experienced and has matured to a point that I can deal with on a daily basis.
Sounds weird to think I may be in my mid 50's attending a high school graduation, lol.
Regards
In fairness to Princeton Mom, women on Wall Street aren't particularly..."Welcomed." As demonstrated in articles with our favorite bank:
http://jezebel.com/5963369/goldman-sachs-was-like-a-frat-on-steroids-sa…
Karypto beat me to it. Few girls make it through Ivies, or perhaps any college at that matter without taking their share of poppycocking. In my experience, or just my dumb luck, it's been easy to dig up what dirt may or may not exist with some girl I may be dating at college.
Here's what I don't get: if you're a woman attending Princeton you're obviously pretty sharp (generalization, but probably a fair one). Why doesn't it occur to women to just go live a life and not worry about getting married and having kids? Getting married and having kids is a horrible decision for the vast majority of people (divorce statistics bear this out), so I would just think that chicks in the Ivy League would be able to put two and two together and realize they'd be better off just living the life they want to live.
Unless that life is one of dependency, obviously.
What about a woman's natural desire to be a mother?
Personally, I see people getting married and having kids because its either A) STRONG part of their culture or B) what people do when they are bored with their lives/have no further pursuits to conquer
I just don't buy that there's a natural desire to be a mother. If anything, motherhood is more traumatic than fatherhood. Why would an otherwise sane woman put herself through that? Up until now there was a lot of social pressure to become a mother (and it still exists, to be certain), but now women are having kids later and later in life (which I personally think is a worse decision than having kids at 13 and getting them out of the way). That indicates to me that there was no desire for motherhood until the very last minute when it wasn't a viable option for much longer. Not exactly embracing motherhood with open arms.
I have a theory, I call it 1 step logic. We all have a few areas which we get very touchy about, and then leap into 1 step logic which is basically that the most direct path is the right one to take. Worried about not getting married? Marry someone now, being an example of this. I know a lot of very smart women (target science phds) who were pretty hot, and compared to the rest in their field, stunning, who were terrified about being left on the shelf, got really clingy and hooked up to people way below them. Sad to see, but dont align intelligence and logical thought with every action. We're sensitive to particular areas.
NOOOO! stop discouraging smart people from reproducing!
@Edmundo: I can tell u that at least one woman thought this way (my ex...)
People bread because society tells them to. There is a reason why people have fewer kids as they get educated and have more money. Kinds of a shame since the people you don't want to breed do so en mass.
Having kids basically sucks. Countless studies show a drop in happiness, satisfaction, etc when a kids come.
Are you seriously saying there's not a strong natural urge to reproduce?
But anyway, this woman is speaking out of bitterness about how her life turned out, but I don't think many people will be dumb enough to take her seriously.
I haven't gotten it... yet. But yea, that's biology for you. What a bitch.
I've always kind of viewed having kids as the fulfillment of an animalistic and atavistic desire. Same goes for sex. Sometimes I think about having kids/sex and then other times I find it repulsive and bizarre. Especially pregnancy and childbirth which is something I'm pretty damn turned off to as a chick; from a certain perspective it's like having an alien/parasite living inside you, feeding off of you for 9 months. I know that's kind of gruesome and offensive, which I apologize if it is for anyone, but I think I have a different perspective to offer and as a human being with natural desires, I am somewhat conflicted by it, just as the op is about marriage.
Children are a poor persons way of having a legacy. If you have money you can actually leave a lasting impression on the world through scholarships, charity, etc. Way better than passing on cromagnum man level DNA that the prols shit out.
Hope that you and other taxpayers are enjoying her legacy.
Hope that you and other taxpayers are enjoying her legacy.
]
Update: Those 15 kids are now 16 kids:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ5b_WvaOhY
Mazel Tov!
I agree with this 100%. I think this idea ties back in with my previous comment that people have kids because they have no other pursuits to endeavor in their lives. They can't create anything they see as significant, important, or creates impact to society by any other means, so might as well drop some rugrats into the world to stir the pot of life.
Umm, really? The vast, vast majority of successful people also have children. You'd have to go back to the 19th cenutry for a childless American President, for example. Most billionaires have children. A ton of successful professional athletes have children. This comment is just so far off base--your assertion in no way reflects reality.
Srs question, are the girls in the NYC social scene generally just throwing their snatch around? Not that I mind at all, but I'm coming from Miami Beach to NYC and even down here it's a little more reserved in terms of hooking up. Sure there are whores everywhere, but from what I've noticed most girls stick with one hook up before moving onto the next one.
It is pretty much a free for all
I'm in NYC and kitty is easy to come by. My record was one hour from meeting (same day), close second was two hours later during first date, and last place was five hours during first date. It's a hookup culture. Don't let women tell you other wise. They pretend to not be easy, when we all know they want it. Granted these were sluts. I will raise my standards in the coming months but will adhere to my three date rule. There's too many women to have to put up with the ones with values/bullshit.
I'm not the dating type, so take my comment with a grain of salt.
Three date rule already in place. Strong advice.
There are a lot of smart people who post on WSO, so it's easy to forget that the average age is probably 20 years old. Then I read comments like some in this thread and I have a moment of clarity. Thanks guys.
Yea, assuming a level of intelligence based on the number of earth' revolutions around the sun is pretty smart indeed.
@ edmundo To avoid thread highjacking will keep this comment short. IMHO it is actually much more likely than not that women do want to have babies. Think about it like this, look around you and how many young women 20-27 now happen to have "purse pooches" or "large dogs" to walk. They are basically trying to emulate having a child or baby to care for. Go walk down a street with a puppy golden retriever and get swarmed by girls, watch as a total of 0 men comment on your puppy. Well unless they are actually hipsters which aren't real men anyway.
She runs a website dedicated to wedding planning so take her advice with a grain of salt: http://www.theknot.com/
Her strategy is flawed. If you're going to school for an MRS degree you don't settle for undergrad, only the plebs do that. The best of the best MRS holders go for the gold aka graduate school.
The first thought I had in my mind was that she meant for girls to find their LTR at school. I think "snagging a husband" kind of threw off the message.
Just like how we try to find keepers. For girls, keepers are generally found in school.
There are some pretty sad comments on here...
The thing is though that you have to get em while they're fresh. Squeeze the bottom with your thumb to see if there is a squishy feel or it's firm. There should also be a heaviness and certain color as well. Typically a sharp smell and little flies imply rotten.
Regardless of any actual merits (or lack thereof) of her argument and the assumptions she made, why would any self-respecting young woman want such an over-bearing, patronizing and micro-managing mother in law?
the mom probably makes an over-optimistic point based on practical realities, but a point nonetheless.
A long phony, boring, suburban life and a chronic petit bourgeoise complex can result to funny, theatrical characters such as that woman.
Just more proof that women should stop invading the Ivy league and stick to community college. It'll keep their dating pool open as they hit 26, 27, 28. No, it will set them up for life.
If you love kids then have them. But realize there is a lot of misery involved in that love. I just don't want to watch spong bob or go to recitals. I have a niece and love her, but I see her 3 times a year and basically just throw money and gifts at her. Then I go black out and rage. When I come home from work things are clean, quiet and open to whatever I want. If I lose my job I can do what I want until I find something else.
You have a wife and a family and that is gone, unless you are insanely wealthy. For the vast majority of us having a kid and a wife is a life long commitment that you cannot fuck up. Sorry, but I just don't care or want that kind of pressure.
FYI people. When you die you are done. Pile of ash or worm food. Start a college fund or a charity, you'll actually make the world better. Shitting out an earth consuming parasite isn't doing a damn thing to secure your legacy.
Once again, you like kids cool, more power to you. With going on 10 billion humans I think we have enough of this species as it is.
^^You obviously haven't actually watched SpongeBob. He's pretty hilarious. If you said Dora, that would be more believable.
The most successful person I know, by far, who is a total BSD, loves spongebob more than his kids and has a spongebob hat, which he also loves.
I hate cartoons. I watch Bloomberg with my niece.
I got her a book. She already has a nice toothbrush.
I wouldn't want kids coming from a nontarget anyways. What happens when they grow up and realize daddy is a genetically inferior untermensch?? I don't think I'd be able to handle explaining that to my kids.
Princeton mom knows that women peak at 21.
I think everyone is missing what just happened here.
This woman just managed to troll an entire nation. How many people can say they have accomplished that - besides politicians?
It's pretty impressive if you ask me - took a "princetonian" to do it too.
it's a huge risk having kids, having seem my mom use my sister and I as weapons against my dad in their failed marriage was horrifying enough to make me never want to have kids.
the pressure and responsibility that comes with marriage is worst than anything else. quite frankly, I should've hold out on getting married.
A lot of sad comments on here.
knowing what ive done scares me more for the girl than what she has done. that said i know im probably going to end up marrying the girl who ski poled the lax team on thursday nights (which i play). ill probably have all daughters too just to add insult to injury
Completely agree...played basketball in college and it's frightening to think that I could end up with one of those girls. The worst part is that it's hard to tell. I knew some girls who didn't look like the type at all, who were just FREAKS. Yeesh.
This will probably sicken many of you, but there is nothing wrong with marrying your college sweetheart. Plenty of people are dissatisfied with the me-first, hookup, get-some culture of college and hold themselves apart from it.
Is that what she told you?
No, that's really my opinion based on experience. I don't think it's wise to impute others' failings or successes on everyone else. Focus on what you can do, not on what others don't want to do.
Women are evil. That's why I stick with men.
On a related note, I think finding a girl you want to eventually settle down with in bschool is probably one of the best aspects of bschool. Chances are, both of you are smart, both have decent career prospects, and both share similar values.
That's [sort of] the plan anyway. haha
Taking a leaf from Jamie Dimon's book, eh ? huehuehuehue
ITT: Nerds
+1 for ITF....
If you find a girl that likes anal, marry her.
Do people actually stress about putting their kids through "30k/year" elementary school?
https://www.youtube.com/embed/BxQMT4R51Dk?feature=player_detailpage
We aren't programmed to want kids. Sex feels good and back in the day there was no contraception. More people was also a benefit since kids cost relatively litter and were free labor (aka poor man slaves). Nowadays kids are expensive and cost > benefit. Yes, you get an intangible benefit, but think of all the misery. It is a roll of the dice. Even the best parents with the most money have kids who are fucked up, sick, whatever.
If you want to care for someone and make the world better, adopt. If you balk at this idea then having a kid isn't about jack shit other than your own ego.
Having kids, buying a home, retiring at 65, living in the suburbs. All this trash is just societal lemming programming.
I know fuck societal norms, I'm tattooing yolo over my forehead and jumping off the grand canyon with a malfunctioning parachute. Take that, society!
Totally agree there. But I also know MDs and BigLaw partners who have kids, live in the city, have had awesome careers/lives, and still raised their kids well.
I also agree that having a child is partially an ego thing. You have to think that you are so awesome that you should pass your genes on.
No doubt. I mean if you can afford to have someone else take care of your kid (nanny, housekeeper, private school) then having a kid is fine. But reality is you have to work and do all the other things which ruin your life. If you have the cash, good, but you better love that job which provides the cash or else you just watch your paycheck go to taking care of a kid.
Different strokes I suppose. I just think we should all question why things are the way they are and not buy into programming.
If you look at what we consider "retirement" it was something recently created to fuel the travel, Florida home, investment management industry. Living in the suburbs is a prison with endless commutes and home ownership costs brought to you buy that industry. Same with everything else.
People, especially women, always seem to forget that having kids is not at all necessarily tied to being married. Hell, I'm not 100% on wanting kids but if I ever am and I'm not married, I'll find a sperm donor or adopt one. Finding a husband and having a kid are not one and the same.
To comment on the actual article. It's very unfortunate that the Daily Princetonian decided to publish the letter, at least without a giant disclaimer but it's not exactly a rare opinion. Heck, the summer before heading off to receive my own elitist college education, plenty of snotty society ladies reassured me/my parents that I'd have no problem getting married off before graduating...as if that were a common concern.
while all you wall street types are weighing the pros and cons of having children, some idiot high school dropout has impregnated 3 equally stupid high school dropouts...
What about evolution tho supposedly its the males job to spread his genes and woman job to get a male to take care of her and her young
I think it's only fair as long as we're considering the downside to marriage, kids, etc., that we also consider the potential upside. Risk and volatility cut both ways in real life, just as it does in finance. If we're going to discuss all the possible ways it could go wrong (which is prudent), you'd probably want to spend at least as much effort thinking about how happy you'd be if it goes right.
And we'll all be that exception of course, right? Won't we? ;)
Well, to be fair, the statistics absolutely bear this out. It really does end up being something on the order of 95% end up married at some point.
But I'm pretty sure guys like me (married 3 times) make up for some of the smarter outliers who avoid the trap altogether.
I don't give a shit what people do, but when people who love the idea of marriage and kids bitch about both of these things when they encounter it then I have to scratch my head. And lets just hope all goes well because if you think a life of rogue bacchanalian delight is unfilling just wait until you get divorced or have a kid that is a junky.
If you want to have kids, a wife and remain independent I suggest you make bank because you will be a lot less happy otherwise.
Observations:
Everyone always is going to raise the next Einstein. Shit happens. You get busy with work, the kid is emotionally touchy, bad friends influence them, etc. You never know.
And if you go into the parenting relationship with this idea that love will be dependent on XYZ then this very attitude will create rebellious SBUX workers.
partying with sluts is so much more fun
What another person says or does tells you more about them then it does about you. So the lesson to be learned is to be mindful of whose advice you are accepting, for their advice is coming from their life experiences! In essence, the Princeton mom’s advice is coming from her own life experience. Which may or may not necessarily be the best advice for you. The key to marital success is to choose a mate who is respectful to you and you of him, is your biggest fan and you of him, vested in each other’s well-being, supportive of each other’s growth, and healthy communication. Shared values and similar goals are more important than intellectual heft. Similarities help. Intellectually equal, great. But no way would I suggest that is the ticket to marital success. There are couples who are similar and unhappy in their marriage, and those who are similar and happy. Similarity in intellectualism is not the “fail safe” for a successful marriage. There are couples who are different in oh so many ways from one another and are happy in their marriage, then there are those who are not. Marriage is a work in process, and a journey- it takes effort, whether you meet your spouse in college or not. Here is to watering the plant of marriage each day! Warmly, Dr. Karen Ruskin, Marriage and Family Therapist
Wtf just happened to WSO?
He/She got a SB, content must be good.
I think this is a pretty good post, regardless of who said it.
Side note, interesting to see the variety of people that make their way onto this website. But all in all, I think it's pretty safe to say that Wall Street needs more therapists.
What college did you go to? And wth is a Masters in Marriage and Family Therapy.
Credentials: Dr. Karen holds her Doctorate in Psychology, her Master’s in Marriage and Family Therapy, and her Bachelor’s in Psychology. Dr. Karen is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, she is a Psychotherapist. Clinical Member: American Association For Marriage And Family Therapy.
Princeton mom is a jackass. Anyone who listens to her, especially someone going to Princeton, is a fool. Practically nobody should lock down their marital partner in their late teens/early 20s. People change a shitload particularly during that developmental period. I'd expect a "Marriage and Family Therapist" to point that out. Oh wait, I forgot, you'd lose a helluva lot of business if people didn't get married in their late teens and early 20s. And I'm assuming you are who you say you are, despite the fact that I could easily pull a Dr's name off the internet and make an account with it.
The touchy-feely stuff is all well and good, but why don't you throw some logic in there with it?
The women probably should. It only gets worse for them after ~26 or so.
For guys? Hell no. Wait until your 30s.
By the way, are you single? Might be worth a trip to Mass...
I definitely think she's a bit off-base. I think college romances are akin to high school romances - almost doomed. If they survive, more power to the couple, but I don't think any student (woman) should have to stress about finding a husband while she's trying to build her independent life.
re the whole have a child or not thing, on the one hand i want as many kids as possible, but on the other hand, i do not want to raise them or contribute any resources to their raising. it's a true dilemma but as most problems faced on this bitch ass mortal plane the issue is irresolvable. in the end, we must fuck. and that's the bottom line.
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