Q&A and Yet Another Post On How To Break Into The Buy-side

I want to give back to the WSO community and talk about my journey to buy-side. I currently work on the buy-side after years in sell-side equity research at a bank. I want to first thank user @Subutai Baghatur (abbreviated as "SB") and highlight the article Breaking Into Buy-Side Equity Research - My Experience as the article that helped me the most. I am happy to take any questions here as well.

My take on sell-side ER is exactly the same as SB's, due to my introduction to fundamental research as a self-taught value investor. I did not enjoy my job - the return on time is very poor with a lot of meaningless work, not much access to thoughtful investors, and a lot of PR stuff. Sell-side ER spends a lot of time kissing butts - IR, C-suite, equity sales, bankers, etc. and the event-planning (for the annual conferences) really does not make you a better investor in any way. I do know it was a short-term gig but still will not stop complaining about how absurd the profession is. So also keep in mind that if your goal is to go work for a trading-oriented shop, this article is not helpful.

There are enough articles on WSO about what sell-side ER is all about (a little plug - check out my Instagram account @dickthesellsider to get your daily dose of sell-side ER life), so I will only highlight one recent structural change that has made ER a less attractive jump board to a career in long-term oriented public market investing.

Analysts are evaluated based on the number of client votes during the annual Institutional Investor ("II") survey. Historically, votes are weighed by clients' assets under management ("AUM") to rank Analysts in a sector. Last year, II changed the weighting to commissions paid, which immediately signaled to me an acceleration toward prioritizing serving ultra short-term oriented clients (who pay a lot of commissions because they trade a lot). If your end goal is NOT to work at a trading-style shop like Citadel, Balyasny, Millennium, just know that sell-side ER is going to be more useless to you than before (of course, Baupost, Harris Associates, Ruane Cundiff, and the likes were not using sell-side ER that much before this change anyways).

Here are some of the key lessons I have learned along the way:

Mindset training

You might be wondering: Why is mindset training top of the list? The reason is: going to the buy-side is one arduous journey - there will be rejections, there will be ghosting, there will be no-replies, etc. You have to believe that perseverance will pay off (I am an example and so are others who have made it). The best book on the subject is Mindset by Carol Dweck. Read the book, internalize it and go get what you deserve. I also recommend Influence by Cialdini, because you will be networking a lot and the timeless techniques in the book are super helpful for your search and more importantly for you to become a better person.

Buy-side is a very intrinsic profession

You need to demonstrate the ability to think about businesses and the market and then articulate concisely why an investment opportunity is attractive. These skills cannot be crammed - a strong candidate will easily show the passion and knowledge in the interview. Value investing has now been very well popularized that any amateur can throw out words like "margin of safety" or "Mr. Market" without knowing how to apply them. Sadly no one pays you to recite Ben Graham's book, you only get paid for finding the next 50-cent dollar bill.

Create real work products

Hiring firms will want to see a stock write-up or two at some point in the recruiting process. From the interviewer's vantage point, it helps eliminate candidates who aren't passionate and can't demonstrate intrinsic ability to pick stocks. "Everyone wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die." So the stock write-ups are a highly effective way to weed out people who "don't want to die".

There are a few good articles on the forum on how to do a stock write-up, so I won't go into that. Make sure you have a few strong stock pitches (long and short) that are concise. It's always better to have strong pitches in smaller numbers than having 10 mediocre pitches. These pitches help you land networking calls and interviews. You will likely do a stock case for the final round interview anyways.

Define philosophy and addressable job set

You will find that a lot of buy-siders are very biased toward their way of thinking about investing (so much for appreciating diversity of thinking). You need to know what kind of stock situations / businesses resonate with you.

It's going to be a balance between having more job leads where you have to somewhat bend your philosophy and having less job leads but you will be a nearly perfect fit. If you decide to go for a larger addressable job set, you have to prepare more tailored stock pitches - eg. two value stocks, two growth stocks, two special-situation stocks, etc. Like I said, even though Buffett says growth is part of value (which is true), you likely won't get an offer from a value shop by pitching Carvana (and you definitely won't get an offer from a growth shop pitching a highly cyclical commodity business).

Networking

Networking is not optional - it's the core search activity. That's how you get job leads. There are a lot of people on the buy-side who are willing to give back - especially the ones who have been in your shoes. You just have to ask. My tips would be:
* Have a CRM system. Use a spreadsheet to keep track of your connections (search on WSO for a template).
* Do your homework: know their professional / education background obviously, but also know the fund's strategy (using Form ADV) and positions (using Whalewisdom and Dataroma; mutual funds' short positions can be found in the prospectus / annual filing)
* Rehearse your story / pitches: rehearse a 2-minute story of your resume and don't ramble, buy-siders are assessing your ability to get to the essence - a core competency. Same goes for stock pitches. Time yourself and refine if it's longer than 2 minutes.
* Be consistent with your brand: One of my favorite graduation speeches is from Jamie Dimon at HBS where he said "there is already a book written about you". Buy-side is an incredibly small community and people know each other. As you network, build a consistent brand so that your future employers don't sniff out lies when talking to other funds about you. For example, I got an interview with a very respected value fund because the Director of Research talked to someone at the hedge fund where I was an intern and that someone put in good words for me.
* LinkedIn is most effective. Buy-siders get a lot of emails (sell-side spamming included), I have found that LinkedIn has the highest response rate. Use your judgment on how much you want to tailor your message because of the time tradeoff: the goal is to convince your connection that you will not waste their time.
* Keep your relationships: Connections have lifetime values, it's your responsibility to keep them. Don't think of them as just means to get jobs - they are mentors who can make you a better thinker, person, and investor. Send them interesting articles and big reports your team puts out, follow their fund's quarterly letters, and generally be of value to them. Reciprocity is a powerful thing - focus on giving.
* Have an ask at the end: At the end of your informational interview, ask for referral to talk to two other people

Sourcing Job Leads

The toughest part is to even know where the job openings are - buy-side is so relationship / lineage-focused. Few points: 1) the less publicized the job is, the better it is because there is likely zero competition 2) you never know - always apply / reach out, maybe you saw a role that you are over/underqualified, but HR / hiring manager might forward your resume to a team that has an unposted opening that is suitable for you 3) Be open to relocations.

I categorize the sourcing channels into the following:

  • Equity salespeople: I did not build close relationships with them but I heard they are an excellent source of jobs. Just make sure you are really personally tight with them to comfortably fly under your boss' radar.
  • LinkedIn: Set up job alerts under keywords such as "investment analyst"
  • Firm career website: create accounts on investment management firm's career website, submit your resume, set up alerts for investment-related jobs. If something comes up, find out who the hiring team is, use your bank's CRM system to cold email the hiring team, attaching your resume and stock write-ups. Avoid dealing with HRs until after you have gotten the job.
  • Job board sites: such as eFinancialCareer, GoBuySide, Pinebase, etc.
  • Bloomberg terminal: a lot of small funds post on BB terminal for openings
  • Investment platforms: this takes most amount of work but you can submit your stock write-ups to Value Investor Club (VIC) and SumZero and hope to be accepted as a full member.

  • SumZero particularly has a job board where small funds post. Submit your best work for a chance to be accepted.

  • VIC has secret meet-ups among members, but I presume it's hard to get invited to those even if you are a full member.

  • Recruiters: They are much more useful for candidates who "fit the bill" (the 2-year program graduates with an Ivy League degree), but again you never know - build relationships with recruiters and they might tell you some good leads, most of their searches are for more short-term minded funds.

Deciding on offer

It came down to 4 criteria for me:

  • Investment philosophy: I don't think the perfect alignment exists. So, just make sure it does not violate too many of your core principles as an investor (eg. the trading-the-quarters and event-driven / special sit shops are my no-go zones)
  • Quality of capital: "Investor alpha" is real, preferably you want to be where the capital lock-up is solid
  • People: buy-side generally has small teams. Make sure the people (especially the founder) are not assholes and can teach you their process and investment acumen
  • Monetary: hopefully the founder is willing to monetarily take care of you as the fund grows, and be open to a pay cut on the base salary to trade for the future upside

Conclusion

Buy-side search is hard, but I think openings will continue to exist. The industry is shrinking but if public market investing is what you are truly passionate about, don't give up and be consistent and persistent. Also continue to work on your craft as an investor. Finally, pay it forward by helping future aspiring investors.

Good luck! I will make this a live document. Please give me feedback and share any additional insights from your journey. Thank you.

Reference posts:

Comments (46)

 
Jul 1, 2020 - 12:29pm

Hey, thanks for the post - super helpful. I was wondering if you had any thoughts on working at a small shop as a generalist vs. a big shop where you have sector coverage early on in your buyside career. This is just theoretical - assuming they're more or less regarded the same by people that know both.

 
Jul 1, 2020 - 12:38pm

Sure thing. It really depends on what you are passionate about. I am a firm subscriber to the idea of mental lattice (Munger stuff) and the generalist model and very curious about many things so I want to be a generalist.

Both models have strengths and weaknesses. If you go specialist, you are trading breath for depth. Vice versa if you go for generalist model. If you go for big shop, you are trading upside for prestige / stability. If you go for small shop, you are trading stability / prestige for higher upside and more responsibilities / direct access to the founder early on in your career.

 
Jul 1, 2020 - 1:01pm

Thanks so much for the post - very helpful.

Had a few questions for you:

How long was the job search approximately, and when did you feel you were prepared?

How did your sector coverage help / hurt your chances during the recruitment process?

Approximate comp progression? While SS ER's comp is fairly transparent, it seems many buy side's comp is a complete black box - grateful for any color you can give on this.

Array
 
Most Helpful
Jul 1, 2020 - 1:23pm

Sure thing. I am glad it's helpful.

Job search took about ~1 year. I always felt very prepared because I am so passionate about it. In reality though, you will never feel prepared because buy-side search is not even a fair game - I got involved with a few long-only leads and got rejected close to final rounds without any reasons (but very sure it's because they ended up hiring someone with 5+ years of direct buy-side experience versus taking a chance on me).

My sector coverage helped me. Buy-side is really dumb on this front - the money raising process is totally backward looking. Right now I'd argue a lot of value funds should be raising dry powder easily but reality is most roles are for coverage of TMT and healthcare in growth-oriented portfolios (you get hired into portfolios, not shops).

Comp: Hard to say. There needs to be a clear path to tie yourself to the fund performance / your own stock selection on the incentive side. The rest is totally up to the fund if it's HF. For LOs, probably more rigid.

 
Jul 1, 2020 - 3:08pm

Congrats on making the jump.

I've been on the sell-side for 2 years and am approaching the 1 year mark of trying to land a buy-side offer. Been in the final 2 candidates twice now for what would have been great seats at hedge funds. For one of these the offer went to somebody with 5 years of buy-side experience, and for the other it went to somebody with no finance experience. Feels like being on the sell-side is like wearing a scarlet letter.

Currently a finalist again for another fund. Don't really have any questions just looking for some commiseration and for somebody to wish me luck.

 
Jul 1, 2020 - 3:48pm

You mention be willing to take pay cut on base. Why do you think that is the case?

Given the fact that sell side research in more cases than not is unprofitable (I know it's there to generate trading/banking) and the buy side can be a highly profitable business assuming enough AUM, it has been hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that a buy side analyst with say 3-4 years total experience should make less than a sell side associate with similar years of experience.

Array
 
Jul 1, 2020 - 3:59pm

I guess it's more of a problem for MBA students specifically than for all sell-siders going buy-side, because MBA candidate's value to the buy-side (in the beginning particularly) is unlikely to line up with the price the funds are paying them. So for a good entry point, need to be not so short-sighted about the base component of pay because the variable part will take over very quickly if you can prove your value.

Perhaps at the college graduate level, funds can easily match your sell-side base salary.

 
Jul 1, 2020 - 8:53pm

Thank you for doing this, your thoughts are incredibly informative. Two questions come to mind in regard to recruiting for buyside seats:

1) In your mind, what are the ideal transition points from ER? Is it +/-the 2-year mark while still an associate, or is there an advantage to really developing a sector expertise, say closer to 3/4 years in ER before making the move? Will the opp set change drastically over time depending on how long you've been in ER?

2) Assuming you have a very close relationship with your senior analyst, would there be an advantage to letting him/her know you plan to leave and tapping their network in terms of opportunities? Realize there's a fine line here, but assuming it plays out in your favor, is the upside worth the risk?

Thanks again!

 
Jul 1, 2020 - 11:21pm

I am glad.

*Again, my answers assume you are not going for a multi-manager / trading-quarters shop. *

1) There is no ideal transition point. If your respected buy-side connections think you have an investor mindset after 6 months on the sell-side, go for it because you are ready. If you been on sell-side for 5-6 years and your long only friends still think you cannot invest for sh*t, you will still fail to get to buy-side.

Re: opp set
* At the college graduate hire level, opp set shouldn't differ a lot based on time in ER.
* At the post-MBA level, you need to careful because your salary keeps going up but your value to buy-side is not (until you get to the buy-side) - the biggest risk is pricing yourself out of an entry buy-side role.

2) I don't think the upside is worth the risk unless you have worked 3+ years for the senior analyst. Senior analysts can be nice people but their top priority is to ensure the current associates run their sell-side machine. Losing you to buy-side will be a massive hit to the sell-side franchise's productivity.

At the 3+ years point, you generate enough traction with your resume that your boss knows will lose you anyways, they might as well not be an ass and help you. If you been on team less than that time, just dig your own way out of the sell-side.
* You could find out whether previous associates on your team have gotten boss help and how many years those associates spent on the team to get a sense.

 
Jul 2, 2020 - 12:01pm

With regards to your no go zones of investing, why do you not want to be involved in any event driven/special sits stuff? I'm assuming trading the quarters is a non starter because there's no long term thesis and it sometimes solely comes down to just predicting who beats/misses expectations for earnings.

Array
 
  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Jul 2, 2020 - 1:47pm

hey i'm currently a student at a target and my end goal (im young things could change but yeah) is a quant/tech focused role at a hedge/quant fund or prop trading firm. with the right amount of work i could do product management, software engineering, or data science at a solid tech firm, or i could go to the sell-side for a couple of years. i think i'd enjoy both but tech more. do you think one option versus another is better for getting into the math-focused part of the buy side (if i needed another degree like MFE i'd do that)? I know this way of thinking makes getting to the buy side seem linear, but i'm worried about going into tech if I can't use it to springboard into doing similar quantitative work on the buy side. i guess my question boils down to would the buy side rather see finance experience over the last 2 years or tech experience especially when it seems that technical abilities and math skills seem to be heavily valued at some of the big hedge funds as well as some of the smaller shops. sorry for the rambling and the fairly elementary sounding question. i guess at school we get pigeonholed and i don't wanna mess up

 
  • Prospect in IB-M&A
Jul 2, 2020 - 6:39pm

Hi thanks for doing this, just on your point about leveraging buyside contacts you have through work. As an associate how exactly does this work, do you actually have proper conversations with them to show you know your stuff or is it all through your analyst in which case do you have to do this out of work?

Also, out of interest which geography are you based in?

 
Jul 2, 2020 - 10:32pm

Sure. I am out of New York.

I go through both channels:

  • If your boss is hands-off and gives you client exposure, great, just impress the clients (at a fund that you personally admire) with your knowledge of your covered names and how you think. Buy-siders typically will want to chat about PA investing with you if you demonstrate passion and intelligence. At the right time, you can reveal your aspiration for buy-side and ask them about a job leads or any insight about a PM or fund. If you boss hoards majority of client calls, onto point 2.
  • Do your own networking. Does not have to be out of work. You can easily schedule boat load of informational calls on Fridays. This approach yields 100% appropriate buyside contacts because you deliberately chose to network with them.
 
Jul 3, 2020 - 2:00pm

Thank you this is some really great insight. I can't even imagine your time as a sell-side ER analyst when your passion is value investing; there's just too much nonsense going on.

I aim to become a multidisciplinary learner/investor like Buffett and Munger and hopefully, will start an investment partnership one day myself. Too many value shops nowadays in my view are actually not true value shop. And quite frankly, your point about lack of diversified thinking in the field is really worrisome to me; maybe that's part of the reason why so many "value" shops have underperformed the index.

Investing might be the only thing I know where the "nonprofessional" has a realistic chance to beat the "professional". Value investing is a lifestyle more than anything else.

 
Jul 4, 2020 - 6:51am

Thanks for the great advice- I had a few follow up questions re your post. As someone who aspires to someday go into public investing, I recently joined a BB sell side firm fresh out of uni (just to give you context ).
My questions are:
1. Exactly how long did you stay at your SS job? You mentioned that using the bank's CRM would be a good way of scheduling informational calls as a means to get to know buy side analysts but Im imagining that this assumes you need to have a firm understanding of your own coverage + your boss is okay with you calling them.
2. After joining SS ER as a new grad, I've realized that I will not be able to directly learn the skills needed to be a great investor. I noticed this and am currently reading up on books by Graham and Howards to learn how to think like an investor, training myself to build models (+other hard skills like data analysis), and studying for the CFA outside of my work time. I know there is still a long way to go, but I was wondering if you could give me advice on how you prepared for the jump to buy side and what you think are the most important skills that I should be brushing up on in retrospect.

Apologies for the long post but thank you in advance

 
Jul 4, 2020 - 9:57am

You are welcome. DM me, we can chat in more detail if you like.

Not disclosing length - just say it was long enough.

  • You can talk to anyone as long as you don't reach out through your work phone / email.
  • You don't need boss permission, but I would "fly under radar" and not reach out to your boss' core client base. Say something like "Hi, just started on the sell-side, but got introduced to value investing, want to learn about your value investing career, ...", that way you are not positioning yourself as talking about your current coverage.
  • You should get up to speed to your sector ASAP because that's a major value add to any buy-sider since you are "in the flow". (i.e. you know why a Surveyor PM is long this stock and why a Millennium PM is short this stock) and you might know sector details a buy-side generalist does not

I assume you meant Graham and Dodds. If you define "great investor" as G&D, you will learn things on your current job that contradicts what you will learn from Mr. Graham. IMO, you will get dumber if you ingrain the thought process of sell-siders.

  • You will have to pay a big price: As you ingrain yourself with the teaching of the value investing legends, you will increasingly find the things that go on the sell-side more and more unbearable. Just keep that in mind. Eg. 1) When your boss brags about "predicting" last quarter correctly IN-HINDSIGHT, try your best to keep your eye roll to a minimum.
  • CFA is great, but you already on sell-side, so your resume will signal you have the basic skills. I get that long-onlys like CFAs, but I will hire someone who has great stock write-ups / investment thinking over someone with a CFA charter anyday for my fund (when I run one) - focus on developing investing skills, CFA is just as textbook as your college / MBA.
  • Read those reference articles in my original post
 
Oct 5, 2020 - 11:19pm

I had similar background - just over 3 yrs sell-side, moved over to buyside a year ago.

On developing yourself as an investor, one thing that really helped me was developing my own views on the stocks that I cover. As you probably know already, the sell-side way of thinking is different than investing. As you grind through the minutia, really try to think hard about your bosses thesis. Are behavioral biases or other conflicts of interest influencing your analysts rating. What would you actually do with the stock here. Also it is easy to get lost in the micro of your 15 companies, but how does your coverage fare vs. the rest of the market right now? It is entirely possible that the majority of coverage is not very investable.

Also, I can't emphasize Dick's point on real work products enough. This was huge for me. Make sure to have a stock pitch ready for something outside of your coverage group as well as a strong handle on your coverage. It is tough when you are grinding the same 15 companies, but whoever interviews you will really want to know that you have independent though and not just regurgitate your analysts thoughts. I literally had an interview with a PM at a large asset manager and he was like "alright pitch me something outside of your coverage group" and it was dead heat of earnings and I told him that I didn't have anything of good quality. The guy respected that because he recommended me for a position at the firm that was sector specific, but don't make that mistake. 

 

 

 
  • Research Analyst in AM - Equities
Jul 5, 2020 - 10:12pm

As a value investor, curious to hear your thoughts on the value vs growth dynamic of the last decade and the last couple years in particular. Do you/your PM think the trend will flip anytime soon? It feels like a lot of value shops have started to cheat by throwing in more growth names to keep up with the benchmarks and could get caught flat footed if value ever comes back.

You eluded to the fund raising environment for value above if you wouldn't mind expanding those thoughts as well.

 
Jul 6, 2020 - 10:21am

I think every investor's job is to identify dislocation between the price of a security and the value of the business. So I am fine with: a) buying a 30% consistent grower that's priced in 10% consistent growth, or b) buying a restaurant name that is comp'ing -2%, but can do 5% comp going forward. Both are value investing to me, but the long-only (LO) community (especially) will make a distinction that A is growth investing and B is value investing. The problem with LOs, though great spots to be because of scale and long-term capital, is:

  1. LOs can generate more AUM and fee by creating more granular strategies (such as small-cap growth, mid-cap value, SMID cap core, etc.)
  2. Morningstar is credible that its "style box" pits LOs into value / growth and allocators will play that game too, so LOs have to make that value/growth distinction.
  3. Benchmark is another constraint that makes no sense because FB can be in a value index now and something value can be in a growth index, and LOs have to be dumb with the benchmark just because LOs value-add is measured against a dumb reference point.

Hedge funds have their own problem, but at least they run on absolute return - so they can be value or growth or ... just guessing.

The true value investors that I respect are evolving - they know definition of value is changing as the world changes, and the world is shifting toward more service-oriented / asset-light business models, long gone are the Rockefellers and Carnegies (with their oil and steel). The result is Seth Klarman is long FB/GOOGL, Bill Nygren is long GOOGL/BKNG. They are still buying stocks that are trading less than their worth, but these are asset-light businesses. Traditional deep-value strategies still exist (Pzena, Donald and Co., Third Avenue), but I have to imagine they are not doing as well (because deep-value stocks are cheap for a reason right now, likely low / negative ROIC businesses).

You are completely right that some legit value shops are probably "throwing in the towel" and buying growth names that I personally am not comfortable with, such as Shopify. That could end very badly for them if not careful.

Fund raising: Say a value fund that has had a consistent process since its inception (most important thing as a fund IMO) but only started 5 years ago, the fund likely has not performed well compared to its peers that own/trade high-growth momentum names. I'd imagine that value fund will have trouble raising money in this environment in anticipation for a sell-off (not making a call here on when/if a sell-off) because investors / allocators are not interested in giving money to a fund that hasn't done well IN THE PAST, even though a robust process will likely generate exceptional return when the market regime does change.

 
Jul 13, 2020 - 6:20pm

Hey man, congrats on the gig! I'm really happy to hear that my post helped you and that you're paying it forward! Your post reminded me that I've been seriously slacking on keeping in touch with all my contacts - I should really reach back out to them and update them once in a while. Feel free to DM me if you want to connect.

 
Jul 14, 2020 - 7:52pm

Sure thing.

I hate to say this: IB over ER for more optionality.

I still think ER gives you more transferable skills, but IB gives you more connections to the buy-side. At undergraduate level, sadly getting into buy-side is more important than knowing how to think like an investor.

Starting on the buy-side straight outta undergraduate is very difficult because most buy-side does not want to train (and I agree it's not good use of even junior buy-side people's time to teach how to think about businesses or how to model). So only very very very passionate people make it into buy-side from undergraduate (they exist - I know a few, but they fall into 2 buckets: one, they started buying stocks at age of ten; two, they were laser focused on getting into buy-side from day one on campus).

 
  • Intern in AM - Other
Jul 19, 2020 - 3:00pm

Hey, first off thanks for the post. So for people who do get lucky enough to start out of undergrad on the buyside (be it LO or some of the MM platforms like Point72 that recruit), how do those roles translate to B-school placements. Also, would it even be worth going to B-school if you start on the buyside and have the opportunity to get promoted to analyst? Thanks!

 
Jul 14, 2020 - 8:27pm

Pick analyst over anything else (of course, sector and shop matter, but unlikely a role will match all three criteria perfectly)

BB

  • Pro: stable platform, brand, better infrastructure (Bloomberg / Factset subscription, access to data vendors like SNL, Gartner, Kagan, etc.)

  • Con: relationship building tasks don't make you a better investor (II, marketing); increasingly harder to exit to long-term investors because of focus on serving "fast money" clients (eg. previewing quarters, lots of "why 31% margin vs. 32% margin?" questions)

Boutique:

  • Pro: they can have more independent views so you learn real way of analyzing businesses, and you might work for someone with extensive industry experience (eg. Bernstein, MoffettNathanson model where the analysts used to work in Telecom, Media, Payment, etc. and they are all top analysts)

  • Con: not stable (depends purely on readership subscription), lower pay, probably sh*ttier hours

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