It is time...
...After 6 years Tier2sta is also leaving the industry....
Why? A lot of what Mr Ridley states is true...
- This thing's not as lucrative as most people imagined, definitely not so now that so much of the above base comp is deferred / deferred stock
- Banks don't know what business model actually works, they have no idea how to get their ROE back up to where it was pre-2008
- IBD teams are too thin, at officer level it means there is not enough depth in resource / quality resource below you to do effectively the things you want to do without constantly stepping down to clean up, mop up, fix, re-do.../li>
- The glamour isn't what it used to be, and because of the increased levels of stress generally it is less fun
- My contacts are as good as my business card in most cases (there are exceptions but a large proportion of clients I have interacted with see me in exactly the same way they see my peers at other banks, these are not deep and meaningful relationships and they are driven by the product my bank can offer)
- My sector knowledge is superficial (I covered the same sector throughout). I could never learn about the sector properly through IBD. The more senior I became the more frustrating this became
So I am stepping down. Been a good ride. Some fond memories. But I think now is the time to try something else.
Peace...
Congrats on getting out of the rat race. You have any specific plans?
Tough decision, thanks for sharing. Any plans for what's next?
FWIW, good luck in all you do going forward
Good luck, I'm sure you had a good run. What's next?
Thanks for sharing. Best of luck in your future endeavors.
Are you taking the IBD --> Street Musician path as well?
I guess I'll just become a farmer.
Thanks for sharing your story...even though we're all happy for you, it is quite disturbing for the up & coming guys.
This...
Good luck to you as well as you move forward. Thanks for sharing.
Agreed with Abdel. I'm glad I got out before I started; the volume of these "peace out" stories is getting unsettling. What's next on your roadmap?
Good luck with your future endeavours...
Instead of your peace out stories some advice or words of encouragement would be nice.
I am thinking about getting out, too.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB100014240527023048113045773663324004537…
If I work in finance at Exelon/ Commonwealth Edison, I'll be able to come home, flick the light switch, the lights turn on, and I can smile about what I do. If I work at Northern Trust and log in to check my bank account and see interest getting deposited from bank loans, I'll be happy. If I work at Pfizer and wake up on Saturday morning and read in the New York Times about our latest cancer drug, I'll be happy.
Money is good. Work is good. But as you hit your mid to late 20s, you begin to snap out of chasing castles in the sky and start getting the first inklings of your mortality as a few small hints of gray hair show up, as a few light wrinkles appear, and clocks begin to carry way more symbolism than a piece of furniture should. You look at the money you have in the bank, and it doesn't make you as happy as you thought it would have made you at 22.
What makes you happy? Friends. Hang gliding/golf/sailing/ things that get you out of the city with friends. Remembering the things you did in college that helped make the world a better place. The arts (sometimes). Spiritual stuff. Money is nice in that it gives you freedom and financial security, but it's not a substitute for the human experience. Kids would probably make me happy too, but they're an 18-year-commitment.
Come to Wall Street. Spend two years working your butt off; spend another two if you can spend your weekends having fun. Enjoy a glass or two; just don't get drunk on it. Cause the hangover is a real bitch.
Agreed
IP, this may be the best thing you've ever said.
I feel like this should be a slogan somewhere
+1 IP
The bottom line is that one of the things that gives you pride in your work is the fact that it creates genuine economic value.
When you get to a financial firm, you're now talking about being three or four steps away from economic productivity. You don't get as much job satisfaction. There is no "I'm making the world a better place or at least helping to keep civilization running."
If you're straight out of school, you don't notice it for two years, and for two years after that, you can handle it without it getting to you. But eventually, if you're an intelligent person who isn't a total nihilist, it will get to you. And you need to keep that in mind as you go in.
The experience WILL help you with future jobs. And it WILL give you a lot of wisdom. And you WILL save up a decent nest egg if you live somewhat frugally. But most of you are going to discover at some point that your life is too valuable to spend it chasing seven figure salaries. Especially given the fact that this is a shrinking industry, not a growing one.
If I were starting over today at 22 with an offer from a top tier new york bank, I'd still take it. But I'd plan on staying for two years, not four. And I'd plan on leaving for corporate development or corporate finance at an F500 firm where I had a 50 hour/week job afterwards. Life is too short, and your working 20s are too precious to spend more than about one quarter of them in the money chase. You need to be chasing fun, families, wisdom, spirituality, and making the world a better place. And the sooner that you realize that your material accomplishments all turn to dust in 100 years, the happier your late 20s will be.
Yes. Thank you, IP.
Now seems like the worst time to come in as a post-MBA associate doesn't it...
'fraid so barf. Though I imagine your experience pre-MBA is a lot different than my experience, and associates do get a bit more free time.
My experience is that in terms of aging, every year on the trading floor is more like two years. You see guys who look like they're 50 or 60 who graduated school twenty years ago. I am seeing a few shades of gray come in, and I'm only 27. Some days I feel like everyone on the trading floor is like Walter Donovan drinking the false grail on Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade.
Hopefully you haven't hit that point yet of hearing the sound of a ticking clock and getting depressed about life. Come in for two years, do a stint on Wall Street, and then get out. If you aren't married yet, WAIT. Save up a nest egg first, then get a job at a Fortune 500 firm that involves working 50 hours/week, pay cash for your home, and come home every night to a family that you love without having to worry too much about money or stressful jobs. It's not work-life balance; it's work-life tradeoff, and I think that once you have the house paid off, everyone has health and life insurance, and you can put food on the table, life needs to become the general priority.
Just waiting for the college sophomores to chime in with, "Good, OP. Now there's more room for me."
Financial security IS a good objective to spend a few years on. But money is NOT the purpose of life and it certainly doesn't mean success in life. If you're not religious, the world's most successful person was probably either an English playwright or a Greek philosopher who was sentenced to death. For those of us who are religious, the world's most successful mortal might have been a bedouin shepherd or a simple fisherman from the Sea of Galilee.
Nobody remembers who was the king of Austria in 1820. And we're beginning to forget the Rothschilds and the Vanderbilts. In two more generations, we will be forgetting the Rockefellers. And this starts to really hit home the second you notice the first signs of aging. Best situation, kids, is that in 100 years, you get a 200 word blurb in the back pages of some forgotten encyclopedia.
The plan for everyone should be:
1- Make enough money to retire before 35
2- Once #1 is done, spend your time doing research in a STEM field.
Probably should have gone with a less important individual as the ruler during this period of time was Francis II, who founded the Austrian Empire to become its first leader, and subsequently becoming Francis I.
I've always wondered how in such an increasingly commoditized industry rising senior bankers can forge true relationships beyond the brand of their firms.
Some serious knowledge being dropped in this thread. Will be taking this very serious as I enter the finance field. f
Not sure how useful knowing who FrancisII/I will be in finance.
Double post, thanks again for this thread
I have similar aspirations to Abdel. More a focus on space exploration than general research though, or some form of a political career.
Whenever I'm out having fun with my friends, all I find myself thinking is "when can i get started on my STEM research."
I would SB if I could...just lol'ed while sitting in a conference room
Because it'd probably require higher education than what you have and they make shit money compared to high finance so you'd really just be doing it for kicks?
These topics are getting kind of depressing :\
I don't even know what I really want in life. I think it would be cool to be like a senator some day, but then again, it's probably just as stressful as finance.
Shrug. I don't know what makes me happy.
Yeah I guess by "retirement" he meant from the finance world.
No, I meant, REAL retirement.
Well that's a nice goal that I'm sure everyone aspires for including myself, but speaking in terms of the average finance guy who follows "the path" you won't be retiring at 35. That would require something a bit more entrepreneurial.
Added to this is the fact that this numbers gets raised much higher once you factor in marriage and kids.
I might as well give trading a shot. I don't see any downside to it.
Worst case scenario? My ass gets fired or I get fed up and quit, and then I find something else to do with my life.
On the other hand, I don't want to be looking back when I'm 40, wondering to myself "What would have happened if I gave that trading thing a shot, way back when? Would I be happier than I am today?"
I'm going to try to live the rest of my life without regrets. I have enough of those from my childhood. If finance isn't for me, no big deal. It's not like I'm getting married to it.
It's look like Tier2Sta thread have benn hijacked lol. Nevertheless some deep true being said here. Thanks everyone for sharing. But as said SamuelClemens it's kind of depressing for people who still don't know what make them happier.
You should be right... Another questions, why some decide to stay in IB in spite of all what Tier2Sta said for example. Are these people so driven by money that they forget everything else ?
Some of these people really do believe money is #1 on life's priorities list. I feel bad for them that they can't find anything more interesting.
Some of these people have more endurance for inertia in their careers. They know everything I'm saying, they're unhappy, but they're patient and they're tough. Maybe they're hoping things get better. Good for them- well, sort of.
Some of these people just aren't paying attention, will have a mid-life crisis around 40, and go become priests, friars, and nuns. I feel bad for these people too.
Trust me UFO, if you work in S&T or IBD, you probably don't, at least according to a number of studies about economic value created by banks.I think that boutiques are going to become a lot more competitive for top talent as many do offer a significantly better work/life balance both at the analyst level and particularly at the Associate/VP/MD levels. If the gap in compensation continues to shrink, the lifestyle at a boutique looks that much better.
Caveat: Not all boutiques have a great work/life balance, some are sweat shops. Choose wisely...
Obviously this site is industry weighted but I think you younger guys will see that by the time you're in your late twenties you will have friends in every profession go through the OP's transformation. "This seemed interesting---> now it sucks. I thought the money was good ---> now not so much. I learned a lot at the beginning ---> not anymore. When I started here things were different! (even they weren't)"
Banking is certainly rough, and the industry has seen an exceptional level of tumult, but dissatisfaction/apathy with a job you've been doing for 3-5 years is industry agnostic. Do the best job you can, wherever you end up, and the next thing will be a lot easier to come by.
You guys are killing me here. I'm currently working at a at a pretty reputable f500 financial firm. But was looking to get a job in ib or pe here in the next couple of months. Just feel like the job is too easy and I'm looking for more of a challenge.... Thoughts about my situation?
The smart hard-working guy in a room full of average people eventually becomes the leader. The smart guy in a room full of smart people is a grunt.
The problems at an F500 in the industrial sector, utilities, oil companies, pharma; these problems are all real and very important and really do affect people's lives and livelihoods. There is a very close connection there. That new power plant is going to reduce SO2 emissions by 50%, leaving a cleaner environment. That new drug for blood pressure is going to save hundreds of lives. That new tractor will make life easier for thousands of farmers. We NEED smart people at F500 companies, and that's where the money is EVENTUALLY going to slosh back to.
I should probably give partial attribution to a set of comments Jay Leno made about Hollywood. He was basically saying that it's great to work in hollywood, but you shouldn't define yourself by it. When you are spending 60-70 hours+/week at work, it is very easy to define yourself by it, and that's how you start to get drunk on wall street.If you do not like your work then get out, of course. I congratulate the OP and others on taking their life in hand and doing something to change themselves. I hope it works out for them.
However, as someone who has been in the business for a decade, loves my work, and plans to do it until the day I die (provided my brain still works) I see the volume of these stories as a great contrarian indicator that we finally are seeing a bottom in the financial industry. In 2008 people laughed at me when i said the industry was in for a bad run on this forum. Wall st always over-fires, it'll be over in 6 months, u r a perma-bear, etc etc. Now here we are almost 5 years later, the S&P is near 1400 (w financials amongst the best performers), the economic data is slowly improving, and the consensus here seems to be that the best move is to become a farmer, tech entrepreneur, or street musician. Outside WSO in the real-world this is also the first year that I have heard people getting fired "throwing in the towel" and saying they are not going to try to re-enter the industry...in 2007-09 I heard none of that. This is classic market-clearing behavior...the definition of capitulation.
I am not a farmer, cant play the piano and unfortunately I surely am not the next Zuckerberg but I am a trader and I have been taught to always be wary of a lazy consensus view.
Awesome.
Beautiful.
Good luck to both of you. I can relate in some ways, and I think your mid to late 20's is a great time to reassess and redirect your life/focus/talents if you feel the need. You get to sort things out in your head when there is less at stake and you have more options.
Thanks for writing. Best of luck!
Those are some wise words illin, I can't deny that. Now I'm even more stuck. Literally have the cover letter and resume ready to go. Just don't know if I would be throwing a great opportunity away. I have connects very high up in the company too. Killin me.
Most corporate executives and higher level managers are as smart as bankers. Some of them are probably much smarter. They like to be surrounded by other smart people and they like to give opportunities to smart people who take initiative.
The nice thing about working at a F500 firm is that it doesn't take as much work to show initiative; it doesn't take as much intellect to show brilliance. There are smart people everywhere, but a smart person at Occidental Petroleum tends to stand out a whole lot more there than he would at JP Morgan.
Maye bondarb. But I'm not seeing 24-year-olds or 40-somethings quitting here. I'm seeing guys in their late '20s quitting. This is pretty typical of what happens on wall street. People have always come to Wall Street on the four or five year plan, and they leave after that. You and I both know that this is nothing new.
I think what's really going on here is the age of the forums. A lot of guys found the site in 2006 when they were interns. So now it's a year of school and five years in industry later. Four or five years was a nice round number for us to promise ourselves when it was over. Now that date is approaching and our subconscious is forcing us to think about getting out.
You come to Wall Street, you live like a monk, you work like hell, you accumulate your savings, then you take it somewhere outside NYC where a dollar is still a dollar, and you spend it there. After five years of savings, my lifetime utility is now maximized by taking the money and working elsewhere, outside NYC. If Wall Street were booming, maybe I would have added a year; if it were TRULY a bottom (total comps down 60%) like 2003 was for programming, I might have knocked one year off.
Maybe the OP can speak for himself but I dont think he came into the industry planning to leave in 5 years. On his list of reasons for leaving the industry I dont see "this was the plan all along". And I have absolutely seen 40 year olds and 24 year olds "getting out" which is what I was talking about when i said people off the forum throwing in the towel after getting fired. And wasnt our favorite street musician/the next billy joel a 23 year old analyst?
I think this bodes well for the economy. A lot of intellect and talent is getting out of the casino and heading off to industry. I'm not sure having nuclear engineers work on structured products helps the economy quite as much, net-net, as having nuclear engineers work on uprating reactors, getting licenses extended, and helping to expand the grid for wind energy.
..the show goes on
I am really tired of these circle jerk threads.
Also, don't say "+1" if you don't actually give a +1.
+1
http://chelleshockk.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/fffuuu-face-meme-i4.jpg
This is how I sleep at night and go to work everyday:
I've always been on the product side, so I haven't had the same amount of soul-draining nights as the industry bankers. So that may contribute to why I'm still a little bit of an idealist.
Maybe I don't trade enough size or I just got lucky with a good group, but I love my job. I get to make great money, intellectually stimulating, and it is a real life human psychology experiment. Even if I get paid (slightly) less than the cash bonuses that were getting handed out before Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers went under, as a junior analyst that is fine. There is no other occupation in the world where the sky is truly the limit and someone can go from being in the bottom half of their graduation class to making a shitload of money if they have other skills like mental toughness and an ability to put themselves in a position to be lucky. For me to quit this job or career path would require me to be escorted out of the building by a team of security guards because to be honest, I don't have a magic number, I could do this for a long fucking time. Maybe not from a NYC high rise, but in some way or another I am here to stay and I have worked a lot of other shittier jobs to confirm that is the case.
What type of trading do you do?
And btw just because the game is changing doesn't mean it is dead. It is dead for those who cannot offer a service that justifies getting paid at their level. The rules are still the same, those who make money or help make money live, and the others hang around until they burn out or get pushed out. For everything else, the Fed writes a blank check.
ILLINI - CALLING YOU OUT
I understand that you're not interested in high finance anymore, but please stop spreading this "grass is greener" crap, especially with respect to corporate development. The poster that said this kind of disillusionment is largely industry agnostic is largely right.
I also happen to have worked with a lot of corp dev types at the kind of companies you mention. Same politics. Same bullshit. Only difference is reduced compensation, less rapid career advancement, and often less interesting work.
You need to grow up a little if you think people like this are coming to work because it's fulfilling. The fact is, most paid work sucks. Even jobs where you are making a direct, measurable impact ( e.g. most on this thread wouldn't volunteer to be third grade teacher, social worker, nurse).
Such is life and the nature of things.
PaulOwens, please ignore him, submit your applications, and don't depend on internet forum wisemen for advice on life decisions.
P.S. Your wife + kids + easy life in the suburbs ideal is itself largely a mirage. One thing to appreciate about finance: you might be a grunt, but at least you're grunt to the people that run s***. I wouldn't give that up to join any F500 corporate machine.
P.S.2. I'm not saying this to make myself feel better about my life choices. I think their lives do in fact suck and they tend to be somewhat pathetic (as do most ppl in financial services)
Macro. Volcker exempt
ADVICE FOR U ILLINI
Dude, this Fortune 500 stuff is bullshit. TRUST ME! Illinois Programmer you call yourself? GET BACK TO IT! Learn some web development. Join a startup. COME TO CHICAGO!
Chances are against you striking it rich, but its astounding to me that you'd even consider being a tool in a F500 toolkit when you have an actual, valuable skillset that could make you both INDEPENDENT and WELL COMPENSATED.
COME ON MAN! PM me if you want to chat about this.
Actually, I think Illini's absolutely right, corp dev is a much better job than programming -- http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-22/software-engineers-will-work-o…
It is helpful for doing startups.
F500 Corp dev doesn't provide job much job fulfillment either, but it leaves me with more free time to find my own fulfillment.
This is not a grass is greener thread. This is a thread about how your priorities tend to change as money becomes more abundant and your remaining time on this planet becomes more dear.
Dude me and you have different versions of the term "financial independence" and "fulfillment". I dont think that at age 26 after working five years on wall st you are even close to financial independent at least not living the way I want to live. I'd rather work till the day I die and live the way I want then to move to Iowa and be forced to be live the way you describe as "fulfilled". Working 9-5 in the fortune 500 in some corporate structure is a nightmare to me. I mean literally I have nightmares about wearing khakis, company-logoed polo shirts, and wearing my blackberry on a belt-clip and I wake up in a cold sweat. Dude you are going to be like the Asian version of Lumberg from Office Space asking people who hate you for TPS reports. Call me twenty years down the line and we'll see whether you are still happy living this way, but I believe its an antiquated bullshit myth that moving to suburbia and becoming nuclear family man in a corporate job will bring you any more happiness. My guess is that you should strap in and prepare for a wicked midlife crisis down the line b/c i've seen it before.
But hey, to each his own.
I'm really not sure why F500 gets so much hate on this site. Most people like of the idea of working on Wall Street more than they like the actual work-- which is fine. But, just because F500 finance jobs aren't on Wall Street, that doesn't mean they're not important positions. I've worked in both banking and F500 and, personally, I've found the work in F500 to be interesting & challanging. The people I work with are incredibly smart, supportive, and understanding in the importance of a life outside of work. I work 9-5, can go out to dinner/drinks during the week, take days off to golf, take weekend trips without worrying about work, etc. I make less money that I would in banking but enjoy my life more. A lot more, actually. Now, in no way am I saying that a recent college grad should choose banking over F500 because I think banking was a valuable experience, but I don't think that banking should be on such a pedestal over F500 finance positions.
^^^Did ILLINI just get hired?
Some of us are entering finance for the game, something to consider.
I recently announced my departure after one year. I haven't felt this good in a long time. Back to the happy person I used to be.
The way you make your money matters. And for me...I don't believe this is the best way.
I am smart enough to figure out a way to make money and enjoy doing it...and that's exactly what I'm going to do.
For me it was never what could I do if I left the industry? It was and is what couldn't I do? There are limitless options. If you can break into IBD....I'm sure you can figure out how to break into plenty of other careers.
I want to live without regrets, I worked at a BB for a year and don't regret it...and I don't regret leaving either.
Hey guys
I am moving out into a role that makes use of a lot of the skills I picked up, but (in theory) has the following benefits:
1) Is a player in the sector I covered, I expect to learn more about that sector 2) Pays well enough when considering the enhanced work / life balance I am expecting to achieve 3) Has potential to offer non-linear financial upside (is private, I get equity) 4) Allows me to act as a principal in the sector I covered, I hope to build better relationships 5) Is small, has a good growth trajectory, and offers a more entrepreneurial work environment
Also, I didn't imagine myself leaving IB at this stage - I joined banking in 2006 (I was a lateral hire from a Big 4 and joined as a 3rd year analyst). I am leaving as a mid-ranking VP - the plan was to go as far as possible (no set period).
However, for the reasons I outlined I just don't think the pros outweigh the cons anymore. A lot of my frustrations are around the quality of people around me (below me in particular - I think there is a serious dilution in talent, a number of my IB peers concur), around the numbers of people (not enough anymore), and therefore the need to grind like a glorified associate continuously, despite now being measured on my ability to originate business and build relationships with clients.
The remuneration isn't set up in a way to 'make it all OK' at the end of the year - too little cash and too much tied up.
And, not wanting to repeating myself, I noted that the only guys that know anything about the sector did the whole thing the other way round - they were in the sector beforehand and became bankers after. They already have solid relationships at clients through that time that they have nurtured in an IB context. They also understand the dynamics of the sector much better than a pure banker can (I refer to the 'sector' a lot - it is fairly specialized, and a big industry in its own right).
The final point is this - this is probably the last chance in my life (before I have real responsibilities like a wife and kids and a mortgage) that I can actually take a risk.
Banking is not the be-all and end-all - and the industry desperately needs to work out what it wants to be. I think the big players are a mess right now when it comes to strategy and 'right-sizing'.
You have senior bankers in IB operating as if nothing has changed, but with half the resource they had 3-4 years ago. You have juniors who, and I don't know why, don't seem to have to same attention to detail, the same drive or initiative, as the guys who were around 3-4 years ago. All in all just means that guys in the middle (the mid-level associates to mid-level VPs have a sh1tty life).
Now is the time to take risks, try something different, sit outside and wait for this thing to work itself out. If I ever need to I am sure I can try to work my way back into IB, but I wouldn't come back to the industry in its current shape.
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