What does it mean to be conservative/liberal in the current political state?
As an immigrant it so fascinating to see how passionate Americans are about their leaders and politics. I see people talking about politics at work, transit, home, parties and even with strangers that they meet for the first time.
This is healthy and I'm nobody to say right or wrong in American politics, or comment on the current leaders.
That said we are living in times where decisions made in the White House impact several nations.
With all the latest developments and trade policies coming in action, I'm trying too know what your stance is and understand the American definition of being 'conservative' or 'liberal'
Right now being a liberal seems to be pro-illegal immigration and calling everything you can racist.
_
Did you just equate Brietbart to CNN and Fox and call it a traditional media company?
Jesus
Liberal = Spend other peoples money
Conservative = Try to figure out excuses for Trump’s inexcusable behavior
This is so accurate.
Curous, what is "inexcuseable"?
Anyone want to take any bets on if Heister gets his news from either Hannity, Breitbart, or Alex Jones?
supporting israel
Correct
You don't want my take...
Username checks out.
Liberal = Don't like Donald J. Trump
Conservative = Like Donald J. Trump
Specific policies items Liberals are moving towards going forward:
Those are the main ones I think of right away as huge focal points going forward.
For the Conservative side I'm not completely sure what their policies even are at this point. The only policy the Trump administration pushed for was a tax cut for the wealthy and corporations ballooning the debt by a trillion. They've abandoned fights for healthcare because their ideas were absolutely crushed in the polls while the democrats have strong polling on that subject. They're against illegal immigration I guess? But so are the democrats. They just want to establish a pathway to citizenship for those here to come out of the shadows and contribute tax wise while not separating families. Their plan is (was..?? idk) to build a wall on the border to stop this even though almost all illegal immigration is overstayed visas and such.
That's about the extent I can think of for policies being pushed forward.
Absolutely spot on.
Also, the wall is one of the most ridiculous things ever. In an MIT study they found that people will not shift their beliefs. I think the main fear of immigration is "stealing" jobs (although somehow jobs are earned if you're born here, "stolen" if you're not?). Even when presented with the facts that automation will be the cause of their skills no longer being valued in the marketplace, they still hold their beliefs that immigration is the problem.
TLDR can be found here
That's very helpful!
You aren't against illegal immigration if you want to de-criminalize illegal immigration and want to pay for their healthcare. You are going to make the problem worse.
Also nobody paid the high tax rates when they were at its highest. The effective rate is essentially the same, slightly lower. (source: https://files.taxfoundation.org/20170804133536/Average-Effective-Tax-Ra…)
Except if you put those people on payroll, they contribute to healthcare expenses. The real issue surrounding illegal immigration is that businesses are for it, because it allows them to pay extremely cheap wages to workers who have no rights. All those people are going to receive healthcare because there is no other way alternative - if one needs to have valid, confirmable ID in order to receive emergency room treatment, for example, you'd see plenty of American citizens dying because their citizenship couldn't be confirmed in time for life saving treatment to be applied. And Fox News stories notwithstanding, I've never seen a credible argument that illegals are showing up to the doctor and expecting not to have a copay.
Conservatives don't want a solution because they long ago hitched their wagon to dog whistle racist politics, and there is no chance in the short to medium term that immigrants will vote for them. Any "solution" hurts them politically; therefore, better to continue to rile up their base about an easily solved solution while not allowing the Democrats to profit politically.
What is driving healthcare costs through the roof is the fact that Americans are extraordinarily unhealthy and there is no incentive within the current system to make people focus more on preventative care instead of expensive surgery or medication. Fixing healthcare would honestly be pretty easy without lobbying. Again, there are powerful entrenched interests that don't want a solution or a reduction in healthcare costs.
No, liberals do not support the following.
Their wealth tax ideas will never work because it doesn't address the core problem. Income tax, if you double up taxation with wealth and income taxes you will 100% remove any posibility of anyone ever changing their position in the economc ladder.
I stopped reading after this because there are so many problems in the first section of this that it doesn't even make anysense to continue.
For fucks sake do some basic research before you post dumb shit like this.
"Ending the endless wars overseas"
You gotta be kidding me. Liberals have just as many war hawks as the Conservatives. Obama was no less fond of war than Bush. The Democratic runner in the last election was Hillary Clinton for God's sake. Like it or not, Trump is the most anti-war President we have had in decades and that is why all the elbow greasers in DC are losing their minds, creating all kinds of ISIS resurgence theories to delude the people and drag us into yet another endless war. You know, the Clinton-Obama clan, the lifetime Politicians, John Bolton, Brett McGurk's of Washington and the like.
Liberals = captured by identity politics, NYT/WaPo/NBC/CNN groupthink Conservatives = captured by the idiotic opinions of the apprentice guy, Hannity
I am a conservative for the most part and NOT a fan of Hannity one single bit.
It's not healthy. Politics shouldn't be religion. Public policy debates and cultural debates are healthy, but excessive focus on partisan politics isn't healthy. We were already moving in this unhealthy direction before Trump, but he is such a gigantic figure that he took us another giant leap that way. Politics today are completely poisonous--it's very unhealthy.
I told my co-worker that people now look at politics like they look at fandom of their favorite sports teams. People are now fans of Donald Trump or fans of AOC. They'll stick by them no matter how bad things get or how ridiculous they are, just like sports fans. It's akin to that (or religion like you said). It's dangerous and sets the foundation for the downfall of democracy.
Well put. I think the liberals and far left plus mainstream media have a lot of blame on themselves in dividing this country to where each side can't stand each other. One side is constantly having to defend itself while the other is unrelenting aggressive to the point nothing, not even good things for our country, can get done. They lost the election and immediately could not accept it. If Trump is actually so bad then it shouldn't be hard to vote him out of office next year. Instead they won't let him get anything done and investigate him his whole term. It is really hard to watch. Trump could cure cancer and the left wouldn't give him any credit nor the media.
I am really not a fan of either. I would say also I think the country is not as extreme / polarized as social media makes it out to be. Most people are just trying to get by and not have their way of life under threat. People want jobs and they want to have a fair shot in life. It's understandable in that framework why people want universal healthcare, as well as not have their 2nd Amendment rights taken away.
Politics is for people who want to gossip but don't have friends.
Second best comment you've posted - close runner up to the 800 word ramble on how you spend your money on windows and rap studios but never the kombucha. Zero point in voting unless you're in a swing state and even then seriously you're not voting for someone you have any influence over. What influence do they even have? The only reason the US has a peaceful transfer of power every 4 or 8 years is because those who are actually in power don't waste their time playing president.
My mom just watches general hospital and they should too.
Politics is show business for ugly people.
I'm pretty neoliberal and I feel like I'm vastly finding myself without anyone speaking for me.
There are dozens of us, literally (the pre-21st century definition)
Sure but in politics/politicans the left is becoming so progressive that candidates increasingly carter to the progressives and far left.
This is a good political compass to see where the majority stands:![polc](a href="https://images.theweek.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/screen_shot_2019-03-03_at_10.02.24_am.png?itok=2txPWUa2">https://images.theweek.com/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/scre…</a)
The two great tribes are socially conservative/economic mixed or socially and economically super progressive. That's it.
The old paradygm of socially liberal economic conservative is a shrinking, though over-represented institutionally, tribe. Truth is, 2008 and the bailouts killed the long term credibility of pure free markets. What happened is that once the markets deemed an entire sector too rotten and thus unworthy of sticking around, government bailed out... the upper class. If you are middle class or lower, it was the day that the ''neoliberal establishment'' told you ''government intervention is fine, so long that's for ourselves''. Good luck undoing that anytime soon.
If you think that's bad, the social dimension is even worse.
Interesting point about 2008 killing the credibility of free markets
You are a neoliberal and find you have noone speaking for you? Are you being sarcastic are or you really that dense. Neoliberal is pro war, pro big governance, anti freedom and cultural oppression. You have more peopl speaking for you than ever before.
Cultural oppression?
Ok
This is very true!
Sucks. My conservative brethren have to do a better job. There is a lot of opportunity for us.
This is interesting. All of the political discourse I participate in is online, and for me personally either extremely left or extremely right economically, as a result I have a very poor grasp on the actual political discourse taking place. This map, and me trying to talk politics in person have made this apparent to me recently.
This isn't surprising at all. What I always find odd is that the Asian immigrants who worked very hard to come into this country legally and who are supposed to be family oriented, now support illegal immigration and support policies that threaten the traditional nuclear family.
I think it should be noted also the impact free thinking universities have on college kids these days as shown by the map (look at Cali educated white kids). Honestly Academia shouldn't have such a large impact on a kid's world view as most of those people haven't even worked in the real world. Not sure how to address that though but it is important as tax dollars go there.
Liberal = thinks people on this forum should pay for everyone else
liberal = retard conservative = white supremacist
liberal=wants handouts conservatives=Bible thumpers MAGA=idiots
Politics in America are very complicated, imo. Roughly 60% will actually go out and vote, so whether someone considers themselves a Dem or Repub is only that share of Americans, minus independents (like myself).
Within that 60%, you have maybe a fourth will actually be diligent about being informed, meaning seeking out resources to learn about all views and develop their own arguments pro or against.
The remaining 3/4ths will only know anything based on inflammatory statements or rallying cries made by entertainment media sources or the politicians themselves.
Essentially, the majority of Democrats and Republicans are made up of simple 1 dimensional blocks that makeup the left wing and right wing political forces attempting to shape and control the power dynamic.
Our politics are a combination of money, media/online presence, the church/religious org, and liberal college campuses. These four institutions are virtually fueling all American politics, except for the small ~15-20% of diligent and informed Americans who may be more capable of making an objective, reasonable decision.
And only 1 of those four institutions I can see still actually growing.
If I have to distill it down:
Liberals - appreciation for others who don’t look, pray, speak, live, or act the same as they do.
Conservatives - appreciation for their personal marginal tax rate
Republicans - appreciation for Dear Leader and whatever talking points Hannity and Tucker give them each night.
Think you meant, "Appreciation for others who don't look pray, speak, live, or act the same as they do. Except people who disagree politically. Treat them with the utmost contempt and learn quite possibly zero lessons from the last election cycle where The Apprentice guy flipped the entire Rust Belt."
I'm from that Rust Belt and didn't have an ounce of animosity for those people until 8 years of a black guy as President turned the Heartland into the MAGA drone-thinking cult wasteland. Watch their rallies, watch our President call people like me "human scum", and tell me again why I should lead the call for civility?
It is so weird to me that today on sites like twitter, if you identify as even a little conservative, you are immediately labeled a Nazi, racist, homophobic, etc. That what happens when you let dumb, brainwashed, 17 year old high school liberals dictate an entire party's beliefs based on winning upcoming votes next year. This is a result of dumbass identity politics run by the lowest common denominator of the US, because they do not know how to think for themselves and just group up and think the way that group thinks with no facts to back a lot of claims they make.
Disclaimer: I do not identify as a total conservative or a total liberal. I just use my brain to think about what actually makes sense and if i don't know something, i just say "i don't know" and try and figure it out. I will say though, the most extreme liberals seem way more insane these days than the most extreme conservatives.
This kind of goes the other way too. If you go on fox news or any right leaning news outlet and disagree with anything Trump says or does you get called a liberal or RINO. For example: McCain, Rick Wilson, Romney, Shepard, Chris Wallace, etc.
This political climate is leaving independents in the dark.
100%, but the name calling towards conservatives is so much more intense. Like calling me a RINO is better than calling me a Nazi lol.
Well if you actually look into McCains voting record he was basically a RINO. So that's not anything shocking. Also we have no reason to honor that fucking mass murder, he was a staunch supporter of every war America was ever involved in known or not. The dude has as much blood on his hands if not more than many dictators that committed genocides. So no, telling people what McCain was is not someone toeing the Trump line. Not saying that Fox isn't supportive of Trump, because they are. However Fox, is far more correct on news reporting these days than all of the left media combined.
Do you (fortunately) not have any old boomer friends on Facebook? They are dumb as FUCK. Constantly sharing fake news from whatever sketchy ass chain email they got added to. This voting base has to have the IQ of a god damn potato
Bingo. Meanwhile, the star young conservative "intellectual" Ben Shapiro has been arguing that Trump's quid pro quo (in which he sought to benefit personally) is no big deal because Bernie said we should condition Israeli aid on better behavior in Gaza (which would not benefit him personally).
Why do you guys take this guy seriously?
I stopped using facebook for exactly this reason, and now i want to stop using twitter for the same reason, but for the dumb libs that flood it. My point is that people will just choose a group and think the way that group thinks just because, and if you ever disagree you get name calling and dumbass shit thrown at you. No room for actual discourse.
sorry, I should rephrase this to "baby killers" and "libtards"
***baby killers and libtards are the same people.
What does it mean to be a Republican in 2019? Seriously, can a self-identifying Conservative tell me what it means to be R in the era of Trump?
It seems there are no principles anymore, only interests.
We'll see what liberal is, in the 2020 election ;)
Eyy! We know what's going to happen ;)
In my opinion, being Conservative in the United States today means being more traditional and being Liberal on the other hand is being more progressive. I think being Liberal used to be more similar to being Libertarian than it is today.
hmm
Politics sucks. Most politicians: democrat or republican are primarily interested in themselves. With that said, the new republican party is terrible for the the United States. Not too long ago, conservative politicians had high standards, especially for behavior. The public associated the term conservative with high moral character. The new republican party has lost its way. Hopefully, this situation is only temporary.
YangGang 2020
What does it mean to be Republican anymore?
The party of free trade now overwhelming supports tariffs and a trade war.
The party of fiscal conservatism has ballooned the national debt in the last 3 years.
The party of patriotism now derides Gold Star families, Purple Heart recipients, and other veterans that dare question or criticize Trump.
The party of family values overwhelmingly supports a thrice-married, serial philanderer and credibly-accused sexual predator.
The party of national security and steady foreign policy now embraces Trump's coziness with foreign dictators and brushed off abandoning our Kurdish allies with spontaneous, ill-planned military decisions.
Conservatives who refuse to go along with these flip-flops are derided as Never Trumpers and called human scum by POTUS. Meanwhile, the ideological heart and energy of the party sits with Devin Nunes, Matt Gaetz, Jim Jordan, Hannity, Tucker Carlson, Laura Ingraham, and Diamond and Silk.
If you were a Republican 5 years ago, how can you be one now? Or are you just rooting for the jersey?
They are just rooting for the jersey.
We gotta expand our government so more credible parties can exist. This 2 party system is failing as ppl become more and more apathetic towards politics. Republican party was on a slow death ever since they allowed evangelicals to take over their party and the Democratic party is on it's last legs as they become more and more progressive.
LMAO. I like how you phrased that
Conservative = OLD me Liberal = NEW me
This post is so funny:
On a serious note I think it should be a national holiday. A lot of educated people are usually stuck in workplaces and schools.
You remind me of a 'Liberal' Fyre Festival
Means I don’t talk about politics at work because I don’t want to listen to hysteric screeching.
A conservative does not "conserve anything" maybe the ability to watch 1980s american life films on netflix, Likewise "liberals" do not make America more "liberal" both parties do not have any interest in public policy but more a dramatic political landscape.
way way way way back when, this used to be a debate not about labels, but about one overarching question: how big should the state be? from this, every issue comes.
so you had one party who feared big government and more of a laissez faire approach to all things, social and economic. these would be what are called classical liberals, libertarians, etc., not all of them are nutjobs like peter schiff or ron paul, they just fear big government and may want things to be more localized when decisions have to be made. the state ought to just exist as a tax collector and provider of military (oversimplified explanation). they may believe in the milton friedman type of economics which would be at odds with things like single payer anything, nationalization of industry, etc. socially, they would in theory favor things like gay marriage, marijuana legalization, and the bill of rights, but they would be opposed to government stepping in to ensure equality. they would value fiscal conservatism and likely seek to have budget surpluses
the other party recognized that people left to their own devices may abuse things, may mistreat workers, customers, suppliers, and there should be someone who stands up to those bullies. further, a state needs to exist so that care can be given to those who cannot care for themselves, because destitution cripples nations and what you get out of that is a bolshevik revolution which NOBODY wants. they may favor running budget deficits when the economy is in the shitter, not wanting to wait too long for some invisible hand to correct things. like the group above, they may favor social liberalism (after all, this country was founded by a lot of folks seeking religious freedom), but they may realize that an unchecked populace can marginalize certain groups and so there ought to be controls put in place so that everyone has an equal opportunity to get a job, go to school, use public transit, access the banking system, etc.
here's where it all went wrong - clustering. pretty soon the first group became the modern day republican party getting into bed with all sorts of industry cucks, the christian fundamentalists who valued their traditions over the country's foundation of personal freedoms, didn't take too hard a stance on institutionalized racism and the bad shit that came from it, got sucked into false narratives like family values, drugs are bad (thanks nancy reagan), and that we need to save the world from tyranny, ironically via invasion. ironically, in an effort to preserve american values they alienate would-be americans with rube goldberg type immigration processes, forgetting that we are a nation of immigrants.
and then the second group gets the idea that instead of just leveling the playing field there's now "us" and "them" and anytime you get that sort of mentality, agreement is a foreign concept. you start lumping in bigger and bigger government programs to right the wrongs of past generations with good intent, but get punch drunk on spending and don't think about long term consequences, wondering what all this spending might do to the long term stability of any nation. in an effort to seek equality of opportunity, they may alienate the risk takers that made this country what it is (entrepreneurs).
and so from this, you have class warfare. the core principle of debate (the size of the state) is lost among a sea of micro issues which dominate the discourse. I'm sure you'd like to know my bias, and I'd consider myself generally a classical liberal. I'm pro social liberty (don't care who you fuck, what you put into your body, etc., so long as it doesn't hurt others) but one who realizes that you need the state to provide for the poor, the elderly, and services that aren't best provided by the private sector (police, fire, military). more than everything, I'm a fan of fiscal conservatism. I've never felt more alone in politics than I do today. well-meaning people who voted alongside me in 2012 are so in love with Donald Trump that they cannot see straight, and instead of debating the merits of issues are more interested in "slamming" democrats. I don't keep up with what's going on with democrats (most of my loud friends are republicans), so I can't opine there, but you're not innocent either.
so yes, currently it means fucking nothing. but if you'd like to help, here's how. lead with kindness. lead with curiosity. try to see others' points of view. I say this, because too often the mere mention of an issue can spark a visceral response from people. instead of reacting with your opinion, try "tell me more," or "what makes you feel that way? I'm not up on that subject." you'd be surprised to learn that once you break down the barriers people put up about their "team" just how reasonable some people can be.
First of all, this is a great post. I'm right there with you with never feeling more alone in politics for very similar reasons.
The problem I have found with this approach, which I support in theory...
...is that people in 2019 are essentially operating with different facts, not simply different opinions. This is driven in no small part by the segmentation of the media and how social media encourages bubbles, feedback loops, and circle jerks, but whatever the reason, it makes an intelligent discussion of certain political topics almost impossible.
A great example of this is 2016 election interference. The objective truth is that Russia interfered in the American presidential election and then created a disinformation campaign to blame Ukraine for this. This is supported by both US and allied intelligence agencies.
Throughout the impeachment proceedings, however, various Republicans repeated the fiction, created and spread by Russian Intelligence, that Ukraine, a US ally, was the responsible party. Conservative media, including the behemoth Fox News, repeated this fiction.
So when debating election interference with someone who only gets their news from the Right Wing Cinematic Universe, asking "tell me more" or "what makes you feel that way" results in a strong belief, reinforced by conservative blogs, conservative twitter, conservative facebook memes, conservative cable news, and conservative talking heads, that a convenient falsehood is the truth.
When the argument isn't about the right way to respond to Russian election interference, but instead whether or not Russian election interference even happened or if it was actually another country interfering, reasonable discussion tends to be out of the question. You can't debate whether or not you should mow your lawn horizontally versus diagonally if you can't agree on if the grass needs to be cut in the first place, or if proper grass maintenance includes cutting it, or if the green stuff in your yard is even grass, or if it is even green to begin with.
Unpossible! Heister told us that Fox News is a beacon of truth earlier in the thread:
https://www.newsweek.com/53-percent-republicans-prefer-trump-lincoln-14…
Love how people on here rip Fox News, the only right-leaning mainstream outlet when ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, MSNBC, Time, Economist, Newsweek, WaPo, Bloomberg, NYTimes, etc. all lean left. Are Republicans allowed to have just one mainstream outlet that tells their side?
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