I'm currently an SA at a boutique IB firm who's summered in NYC the past two summers; lived in NJ for a long time before settling in different a suburb of a metropolitan area the past 10 yrs or so (permanent home).
I've always had this idea NYC or bust, and while I still have that for the couple few years after finishing school I've started having different outlooks. I met some true southern people over the summer and it got me thinking again what if I moved to somewhere in the south in the future? Somewhere like a Texas?
Besides the obvious stereotypes, what is your opinion on the Southern parts of the US? I've lived in the east coast, well developed parts all my life. What drastic changes might I face? Also, will me being non-Caucasian hurt me in some ways? (serious question)
Atlanta is great! In the South, the cost of living is a lot of better, esp. Atlanta. The nightlife is decent. I think you may find that in Atlanta there are a number of non-caucasian professionals in Atlanta. I think in any area of Finance, there are less minorities, however, if you work hard and be likable you can break in.
I think if you go to Atlanta, Charlotte, Dallas or Houston you'll be fine. You'll be surprised how nice most of those places are. A few quick points:
Most of those places, especially Atlanta, are full of transplants from NYC, Boston or out west. If you go to a braves game the stadium is half empty, when the Yankees came to Atlanta the place was packed with probably 90% Yankees fans.
The culture is great, people are very friendly, nobody shits on you and people are generally pretty happy. You'll go home earlier because people want to spend time with their friends/family and actually have better shit to do than work 80 hours a week
It's fairly easy to make friends I've found, you can turn up to a party and immediately find a few people you have something in common here, there are so many transplants around that you're bound to find someone you like.
Being non caucasian I doubt is a problem if you're in a well established city. Most of these guys just want dudes who will work hard and if I'm honest, I really don't think racism is a problem, I have a buddy of mine who is Indian who will come out to clubs with us and the guy just cleans up. In addition I know he's a rockstar at his bank and all his MDs love him so I don't think it's affected him professionally. Although I'm not sure how this relates to those who are black (maybe it's different but I don't know)
Southern women are the best.
Everything is much cheaper, cleaner and nicer. I've got a friend who lives in the W residences and pays like $1300 a month, truly insane.
This alone is reason to live in the South (which is awesome BTW). Nothing else to add to new's post, solid advice all around.
I second the part about living in the W residences. Atlanta is truly insane when it comes to cost of living. You can live in Buckhead for a fraction of what it would cost to live in similar upscale parts of other major cities. You can live like a king for a relative small amount and have a good amount of disposable income. Plus the nightlife is great! The women are hot too!
I am borned and raised Texan, and worked at an investment bank in Texas. Racism is not a huge problem, but race is joked about often (Not that it is any different in the WSO chat rooms).
Also, in Texas, most people are from UT, A&M, Rice, SMU, TCU, Baylor. Those schools make up 75% or more of the individuals working in finance.
What about the generalizations / stereotypes, especially in less city-like atmospheres?
It's a great place to live, and especially welcoming to the "settle down, start a family" lifestyle.
You'll meet lots of rednecks but they are generally friendly. They like their outdoors a lot - fishing, hunting.
The closer to a big city you get, the more progressive the culture gets.
You can actually get good use out of a car instead of letting it rot in an expensive parking garage.
Also a good point. I have a buddy who drives a sick C63 AMG, he has so much fun in it and he's able to afford the car and his rent for under the cost of a months rent in NYC.
Women, Beer, College Football, Rap Music = All better in the South.
On a serious note, it really depends where you live. Texas is going to be different from Georgia, etc.
But if you live in a big city (Houston, Atlanta, etc.) you won't notice a huge difference in anything.
small town South sucks. spent the good part of my last 5 years in Virginia, Georgia, Alabama, and the Carolinas. Northern Virginia is really an extension of DC and feels urban. Triangle area in Raleigh Durham and Chapel Hill has a good big town feel and aside from some shady areas is a good combination of urban going out feel and good to raise young families. big cities like Charlotte Houston Atlanta are progressive and solid. Austin I hear is real up and coming. I would skip Mississippi, Arkansas, Alabama, Tennessee, and South Carolina entirely
yes i'm aware of that, which is what the OP asked as a banker.
Naaah, Go Vols!
DFW and Houston are massive. You're going to need a car. Public transportation is a myth. Austin is the best city if you're young and looking for fun stuff to do but finance ops are limited.
The stereotypes really only apply once you get out to the small podunk towns. Cost of living is cheap. Women are really good looking. People aren't snobby and won't brush you off if they don't know you. Fishing/going out on the boat is a big thing in Texas. Even if you don't fish, just go with your bros and drink
I can't speak for Texas but as an Atlanta native who has traveled a bit, I'll just say that Atlanta is "southern" in the same way Miami and Northern Virginia are (NOT AT ALL!) and I love it. Though, I'm not so sure Atlanta is the place for IB/Exit Opps.
I moved from Chicago to Austin and Austin is the tits, that is all...
Glad to see so many positives in this thread.
Went to Atlanta one time, awesome city. Just gotta avoid certain parts at certain times like all big cities...Learned that one for myself when I was there.
Looked up some of those W Residence prices...people ain't lying, that's ridiculous.
.
Any input on Charlotte? Hoping to work there next year.
I moved from SoHo (Manhattan) to Buckhead (Atlanta) about 6 months ago.. best move of my life. Huge, brand new apartment for half of what I was paying in NY and more than twice the size (got a 2 bed 2 bath for myself, just because it was so cheap). Everything else is cheaper in general, except taxis (but everyone has a car here, so rarely do I take taxis except for the occasional weekend where no one wants to drive). Women are also beautiful down here, and not as snobby as NYC. I also lived/worked in Dallas for a little. Cool city, but a little plain. Atlanta's where it's at.
Seems like a lot of ATL folk here. Any one interested in getting together at all? I also moved from NYC to ATL.
Glad to hear all the positive feedback here. If I do a 2 yr IB analyst stint in NYC I would really consider PE somewhere in the south. Texas for some reason really intrigues me.
What are some downsides? I'd really like to hear some cons and maybe even generalizations - can anyone shed light on this? e.g. weather, "less-educated", "lower class", too many type B's, etc...?
The south is the best, much better than NYC imo
I live in Atlanta and absolutely love it. I suppose I am a little biased having lived here for most of my life. I work for one of the F100s headquartered here: Coca-Cola, UPS, Home Depot, Delta, etc....ATL is definitely far away from the big leagues of NYC, but if you want a career in finance there are plenty of decent opportunities.
My cost of living is about as low as it gets. I have three roommates in a 4,000 ft townhouse in Buckhead and pay $550 all in per month. If you extrapolate that into sq ft terms I probably pay 5% of what that floor plan would cost in NYC.
A lot of things are better about the South: weather, women, football, food, etc...People will argue some of those points, but you can't argue the women and football.
I'll be making a move from NYC later this year or early next year. Im looking at some B-schools in North Carolina. Glad to see people here are not talking down about the south.
1000 sq ft apt, brand new with pool, balcony and underground parking for ~1200 a month. Includes all utilities.
That is why you work outside NYC, DC, SF, etc
South is great, currently living in Atlanta. Could see myself living here or Charlotte in the future.
Atlanta is great for everything that was mentioned already. The big downside is traffic...it's horrendous, but do as I do, live 2 blocks from work and your car will collect dust in the secure, underground parking garage at your condo. I literally probably put less than 10 miles a month on my car, on average.
It's hot, but that isn't breaking news. Sadly, it's been hot everywhere this year, so that is less of a 'con' than it would normally be. The 'pro' side of the heat is summer pool parties, tubing on the river and boating out on Lake Lanier. Fall is great, tons of music, beer and food festivals...pub crawls, etc. Winters aren't bad either, typically just 'sweater weather'. We aren't really close to any beaches, so that's a draw back, but it's about a 6 or 7 hour drive to get there.
We have 2 nationally known college football teams locally, professional baseball, football and basketball...hockey recently left. World class aquarium, museum, tourist attractions and the like. I think Atlanta is a great trade off from a big city like New York or Boston. I don't think you lose a lot job or culture wise but you gain much in terms of access and cost of living.
Guest1655, when are you planning on applying to b-school?
Everyone else that lives in Atlanta, shoot me a PM if you are interested in meeting up. I've met up with a few guys from WSO to grab drinks and it's been a good time. Plus it's always nice to meet new people and expand the professional network.
Regards
That is pretty close to my plan at this time. I'm targeting Darden, Fuqua, Kenan-Flagler, Goizueta and Owen. Maybe throw in one or two more depending on where my GMAT comes out.
Regards
so far virtually everyone has posted very positive opinions of the south and the consensus seems to be that moving there is a great idea.
i don't think it's that straightforward. the reality is that it entirely depends on what you are looking for in a city, its culture, and its people. not everyone considers maximum square feet/dollar and easygoing-ness of residents to be the most important evaluation metrics. there are tradeoffs for everything. people might be friendlier and more polite but on average they will also be more culturally/ethnically homogenous, less likely to have traveled internationally, not as well-read, etc. for some that's a problem but maybe not for others.
i know plenty of NYers who would be fish out of water in cities like atlanta/houston and would be miserable. i also know plenty of NYers who would fit in well and benefit from the advantages of those cities.
Sorry but that is completely untrue. I live in Atlanta and all of my friends have travelled extensively and most have come from either SF or NYC. While you are probably right that there is a lot of ignorance, the type of people who guys like us will be meeting (high finance professionals) are guys who are well travelled and generally type A guys who aren't dumb. I have a group of probably 5 friends, 2 are BA's at McKinsey, 1 is IB at a major PE fund and 2 are med school students at Emory.
The South isn't all rosey, sure you're going to meet some ignorant people, perhaps more so than somewhere like NYC or SF, but that all comes down to the type of people you surround yourself with.
Double has pretty much hit the nail on the head. The south is great because, even in Miami, you can be in a decent size city then drive an hour and be in the middle of nowhere practically. The people are definitely more friendly and accepting. The race crap is all media hype...don't believe it. It is no worse than any where else, and if anything less so. But like it was stated before, we have our fair share of ignorant people, and uneducated too (I'm not bashing anyone, my moms family is made up of country bumpkins and I love 'em for it). But no matter what their education level is, they will be accepting and I'm sure impressed and they will hand you your beer just like they did the next to ya.
even among smart/type A people, some people are more inclined to discuss college football and domestic politics at a steakhouse. others are more inclined to discuss egyptian politics, the microfinance industry, and woody allen at an indian restaurant. neither group is superior to the other but if you are a group 2 type, the south might not be your thing.
my limited point is that it depends on the individual and his social needs. not just in terms of dinner conversations but all kinds of other things both tangible and intangible. there are many reasons why NYC is the world's alpha city. there are also a lot of things about NYC that suck balls.
also it's not like one has to live somewhere forever. you can live in houston and then move to NYC or do it in reverse. my personal opinion is that one should try to spend a few years in manhattan when they're young, preferably in their twenties. tons of people willingly leave the city at some point but very few regret the experience.
This isn't any different from NY. If you move out into the suburbs you are going to run into Italian meatheads that lease a 3 series BWM, didn't finish community college and either live in their parent's house or within walking distance.
Atlanta-proper is surprisingly educated and well traveled. I don't think that the stereotype you described should be cast. Of course you could find people that meet your description, but it's very unlikely in the circles you are likely to run in.
I have a wide range of friends in my social circle that include PhD professor, Wharton MBA, PoliSci Masters/lobbyist, medical doctor, producer at CNN, consultants, marketing VPs, medical sales VPs, mutual fund analyst, commercial RE broker, business owners and the list goes on. The ironic part in all of this is I'm probably the least traveled just because I'm younger than most, haven't worked in my industry as long as many of them and came from a very, very modest background. Some of the places that have been traveled by the aforementioned friends, recently, include China, Australia, South America, Canada, Europe and Africa.
I get there is a southern stereotype and that it isn't always appealing to the educated upper-crust moving south for the weather, but at least be aware that Podunk, Alabama is much different from the city of Atlanta.
With all that said, yes, there are lots of NYers that would be lost if they showed up in Atlanta...it's not for everyone but it seems to appeal to most.
Regards
Completely agree. I think DBL is merely restating Southern stereotypes in a politically correct way.
Not as well-traveled? Less well-read? Get the fuck out of here with that bullshit. Atlanta is the 9th biggest metro area in the country. Bigger than Boston and San Francisco. If you can't find some educated people to hang out with, that's your problem.
New Yorkers that don't like Atlanta are the ones that want Atlanta to be New York. "Everyone walks so slow here!" "I wish Atlanta had pizza like New York.", etc.
i just think NYC (and perhaps SF) offers an experience that just isn't replicable elsewhere in the country and people who are looking for that experience will have a tough time adjusting. time and again i see posts highlighting the reduced cost of living in places like charlotte without necessarily understanding that the cost savings are a function of lower demand. there are reasons why demand is lower, it's not merely incidental. there are sacrifices to be made. whether the tradeoffs yield a net positive or net negative will vary wildly depending on the individual.
Does atlanta have any hedge fund activity?
Believe there's two or three in town, two small one large (although not sure if this one is still around)
I've heard of a single hedge fund and I don't even know it's name...but I'm not plugged in to that side of the finance community.
Regards
GMT is probably the largest. ~$3B I think. Atlanta is definitely not Greenwich, CT. There are some decent buyside MF/SMA shops though: Invesco, Montag & Caldwell, /ATL Cap, Crawford, and a few others.
Yes. For ex, there's a hedge fund called Angel Oak Capital. They manage 300 MM plus and focus mostly on RMBS's.
Every time I visit the south the first thing I notice when walking around is all the fat people! We have fat people here in the northeast also but down there they take it too a whole new level. I was down in South Carolina for one Thanksgiving in college and I was amazed that at least half of the people had the same BMI as my pants size (size 34). Must be all that southern food because my aunt had me try 'sweet tea' and it felt I was drinking straight sucrose.
I remember saying the same thing the 1st time I visited the US.
I could not believe that it was humanly possible to be so fat (was in Albany, New York).
Just starting at Fuqua -- moved down to NC a month ago, visited Atlanta this past weekend and Dallas in another week. Enjoying it -- dont think I'll be back to NYC lol
Hit me up if you make it to the Houston area.
Wish I knew there were all these Atlanta WSO guys before I moved. We could have done a WSO meetup!
What kind of industries should an MBB consultant generally expect to serve working at Texas office? Or similar Southern states.
(Other than oil for Houston office, which is rather obvious)
I absolutely loved the time I spent in Atlanta in high school. I really regretted (and still do somewhat) not applying to Emory or Georgia Tech. The area I was in (I guess it was downtown) was just fantastic. And the people were so nice.
i am going to draw fire for this, but i wonder how many posting here about how great the South is are actually non-Caucasian like the OP. As a non-caucasian who spent several years in the South (admittedly not Atlanta or Charlotte, think Raleigh type areas), I will say racism is still there. it's not blatant or in your face, but it's subtle and still there. something to consider.
i had an OK experience in the south. friendly folks, laid back lifestyle, good cost of living. the truth is somewhere in between the extremes.
I think it's subtly there no matter where you go. People joke about race but you just have to get over it, it's usually not directed at you. And especially in the south, those who are racist (usually in the boonies) are generally only racist to one group of people. They couldn't care less about everyone else.
Rural NC =/= Atlanta, Houston, New Orleans, etc.
Well, I'm white and I live in Atlanta. At 54% black population, I am the minority.
Racism will always exist and although it doesn't feel good to be looked at with suspicious eyes. Hearing a racist comment, especially when it's from a stranger, should be water off a duck's back. So some random person thinks your race is taking their jobs? So what? If it isn't your boss or someone you work with, just ignore it.
I personally think there is racism, in some form or fashion, everywhere...it's human nature to like things that are like you and be weary of things that are different. Luckily there is now a stigma to being racist and that drowns out the noise. People typically don't say racist things unless they are around people they think are the same way. If you hear someone say something, tell them that's inappropriate and you don't want them to speak like that when you are around.
Atlanta is very progressive (sorry, I hate using that word) and cultures and ideals free mix. I live in the midtown area which is also known for being the gay hub of the south. In my two years, I've never witnessed anyone being harassed for being gay, or black or red or yellow or whatever. Everyone is pretty open here and accepting. A large portion of the people that live in my condo are gay and that doesn't bother me even though I don't understand or approve of the lifestyle.
I think when you move into educated areas with educated people they are less preoccupied with stereotypes and get to know the person instead of applying the molds that they've heard or read about.
Regards
until you've walked a mile in my shoes, don't tell me how i'm supposed to react to racism. and saying it's everywhere is a crutch.
not talking about racial jokes. i grew up with them. i'm talking about "you guys need to stop taking our jobs" kind of racism, as if i had any say over THAT. so now that i think about it, some of it was not subtle at all. YMMV.
keen: mind elaborating on the race part? I've grown up in the east part all my life...will I dislike the drastic change? For instance, I've heard from co-workers who have lived in southern areas like Atlanta and Houston and they looked at me as if I was kidding and said they 'HATED' those cities.
I like all the positivity but for the sake of argument and playing devil's advocate if there are a lot of cons (or potential cons) I'd like to hear them
Keep in mind that many people maintain a 'grass is always greener' view. I've known people that constantly talk about leaving the city they live in because it sucks and they want to go to XYZ because they heard it's so much fun, etc. They move and they are just as miserable. I would caution you to analyze the person that you heard that from and asked yourself whether it was likely the city or the person.
And the south isn't perfect at all, but it strikes a good balance between opportunity and sacrifice. It's hot and some people absolutely hate that. For the last couple weeks, it's rained almost every evening and/or night...that's just the way it works here in Atlanta. You just learn to adapt. Talk to anyone from Chicago and they will tell you that the summer/fall is absolutely perfect and that Chicago is the best place to be...then ask them about the winter and they might take off their belt and hang themselves.
The key here is opportunity cost. What do you want to give up in order to gain something else? Like I said before, NY is cool and Boston is awesome and I hope to spend some time in Chicago eventually, but I am not convinced that the fast pace and amenities are worth the hassle and the taxes and the high cost of living. NY has Broadway and great restaurants and great nightlife...all things I can visit on trip...so I feel I can take advantage of the benefits while minimizing my exposure to the downside of living in that area.
Regards
Definitely not a bad way to go. Like many people have mentioned, the quality of living you can get for a fraction of the price is awesome. You can't go wrong in any of the Texas cities (Houston, Dallas, Austin). There will definitely be a little more Texas type culture in Houston, but there are still a ton of really well educated people down here. Austin is an unreal place to live if you can get a finance gig there. So many things going on in a smaller, less crowded and very clean city. I know all of the cities have a ton of transplants and well educated Texans who are no different than people anywhere else. It gets pretty damn hot in the summer but you get used to it pretty quick. Definitely worth the great weather the rest of the year.
Have to disagree with some of you here. While not bad, the women in Atlanta are certainly nowhere near NYC, Chicago, Texas, and dare I say, even Philadelphia. Maybe I've been here too long, but I just don't see it. The majority have no sense of style, few are serious about their careers, and I just don't care for the whole Southern thing. Not to mention there just aren't a lot of super hot ones. High density of 7s, but limited 8-9s. On a related note, nightlife sucks too. With the exception of a few solid spots, Midtown is overwhelmed with gays, Buckhead practically doesn't exist compared to how it used to be, and Highlands is awful.
I'll give you NYC, maybe Chicago. No knowledge of Philly girls but since you don't like the Southern thing I can see why you think that. Different strokes.
am I the only one who can't stand southern accents?
as DrPeterVenkman astutely pointed out (and i emphasized in my posts), big cities like Charlotte, Atlanta and Houston are not like the rest of the South and are pretty progressive with a southern flavor. you'll encounter some culture shock like all their iced tea is super sweet (sweet tea), a LOT of food is fried, BBQ, etc, but you'll probably be fine.
As for the racism, I'm from suburban/small town Northeast and never had any problem along East Coast, Midwest, and West Coast (I've lived in Boston, NYC, Philly, DC, visited parts of Mid West and West coast, and lived in many parts of the South). I've only encountered it down South. I'm also Asian and what I've observed in this day and age is that people think racism is OK against Asians because we are oh so smart and talented and taking American jobs away.
Southern women can be hot but there is also a disproportionate number of fat people from the higher sugar content in their diet. there was also an annoying old country/southern belle aspect to socializing and hanging out. IDK, you may dig it but I didn't. a lot of these posters talk about going out on the town but there are other aspects of socializing in the south that may not seem familiar or comfortable to you.
Not gonna lie. I've lived in ATL, and I love the city. Love driving even with traffic, so a major plus. Amazing koreatown in Duluth, dope night scene, Five Points, low cost of living, the list goes on and on.
And lots of hotties.
Aut iste iure ut eaque quos consequuntur id. Quis repellat ex occaecati cupiditate. Voluptatem quibusdam labore qui et id.
Unde asperiores sit explicabo animi. Ut libero inventore qui est.
Ipsa veritatis est aliquid ullam temporibus neque. Sint sunt velit dolor ut.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Omnis vel nostrum dignissimos laborum. Occaecati omnis voluptatibus saepe error voluptatem voluptas aspernatur. Rerum nihil ut porro nihil minus. Dolorum velit cupiditate aut doloribus quod fugit quisquam ipsum. Impedit fugiat esse perspiciatis consequuntur.
Excepturi libero ipsum nesciunt recusandae. Dolores est harum consequatur asperiores expedita. Voluptatibus dolores rem a consectetur facilis cupiditate.
At ipsa est aut nam sed voluptatibus et sit. Sit tempora veniam ab consectetur. Corrupti corrupti sed qui eaque non eos totam. Quia quis libero sit nisi rerum distinctio.
Architecto quae possimus laboriosam quis. Odit quaerat veniam at. Atque voluptatem labore aliquam ipsam. Eos sint et in consequuntur corrupti.
Illo in dicta consequatur omnis sunt quis. Deleniti quis asperiores dicta at. Non magni ea et accusamus corrupti facere. Expedita qui iusto qui dicta. Et et accusamus sequi itaque quasi quo voluptatem. Nulla ut aliquam et temporibus rem beatae. Ipsa quia eius repudiandae libero nemo et corporis occaecati.
Enim odit commodi at cum et mollitia illum. Sit recusandae beatae eius molestiae. Quo rerum omnis corrupti deserunt qui.
Tempore voluptatem est ipsa tempora sint consequatur accusantium corrupti. Non non id et. Qui aut veniam consequatur et modi quia aperiam consequatur. Molestias esse non nulla quo saepe. Quo velit mollitia harum esse natus amet culpa dolor.