Why is drunk driving illegal?
Seems like too much government intervention on the part of liberals...
I'm sorry, but if I'm drunk and want to drive why should the government prevent me from doing that? Unless I actually hurt someone else in an accident, in which case that's different, the government should have no right to interfere in the rights of their citizens.
You're right, its also ridiculous that doctors are not allowed to perform surgery while high on acid.
are you comparing drunk driving to financial activities on wall street?
Youre probably right. We dont need govt intervention when we have natural selection
i'm ok with drunk drivers so long as i am allowed to mount anti-materiel 50 caliber guns on my car to blast them to jesus if they get too close to me
now that's the kind of libertarianism with some chest hair
Are you f*cking high? Something like 17,000 people each year are killed in drunk driving accidents, which represents something like 1/3 to 1/2 of all traffic fatalities in a given year. Drunk driving laws and enforcement have accounted for approximately a 75% drop in drunk driving fatalities over the last 30 years. Driving isn't a fundamental human right--it's a privilege. If you want to drink and drive then buy a huge plot of a land and do it on your own property. But your rights end at the tip of my nose. The enforcement of drunk driving laws helps protect the fundamental human right to life in exchange for the diminishment of a privilege.
Conservative Republican.
He's a known troll... don't need to feed him...
I know this guy probably isn't being serious, but what's mind numbing is that I've heard this argument before from people who are being 100% serious. It's one of the few issues Democrats and Republicans actually agree on.
As an aside, any time both democrats and republicans agree on something we can be almost certain it is total crap.
This post has all the subtlety of a Childish Gambino rhyme.
You're not funny. You're not clever. Which would both be forgivable if you were making a legitimate point, but you're not doing that, either.
Glad I'm not the only one that listens to him.
Regards
Seriously considered buying WSO credit to reward atomic with SB for introducing me to this gem of a rapper
"I got some pussy that was insane, so insane, it's an enemy of Batman (pronounced Bat-mane)" -> LOLWTF
Has anyone else heard someone try to tell them, "But, I'm a good drunk driver" - or something along those lines. That one always gets me.
Haha I have a friend who used to say that ... right up until he rear-ended a police cruiser at a red light
I tend to consider myself somewhat of a radical when it comes to the social side of libertarianism (fiscal too, but that's not particularly unique here), a lot of you would probably think I'm some sort of immoral freak when it comes to what I think government should stay the fuck out of, but even I have to give legalization of drunk driving a pretty uneasy glance.
It's one thing to allow adults to make decisions about their own life, independently of how self-destructive they may be, but it's an entirely different thing to place a high risk of danger on someone who didn't choose it for him or herself. If there were some way to guarantee that every driver encountered zero other cars on the road while driving drunk, then I would be absolutely fine with it, but this isn't the case. When your ability to harm others without their consent reaches a statistically significant level, the law needs to be able to intercede.
Phrased another way: "Why isn't reckless endangerment legal?" or "Why aren't all the activities leading-up to manslaughter legal?"
if you allow vendettas, i say we legalize murder as well.
.
This should be the general rule of thumb: if it only affects your life, it should be allowed. Even if it's destructive. If it has a statistically high probability of negatively affecting someone else's life, it shouldn't be.
I think you should be allowed to take your driver's test wasted. You show up drunk, blow into the tube, let's say it comes out .17. Then you take your drivers test. If you pass, your license gets stamped "Good up to .17" or whatever, and the cops can't hassle you.
I'm .08 when I roll out of bed in the morning, for fuck's sake.
I think this would make DMVs more congested though. I don't know about you, but I can assure you my buddies and I would be at the DMV every weekend seeing if we could break our records.
LMFAO!!!!
Oh, I'm sorry, I thought this was America?
If everyone would chill the fuck out for a second, there is actually a decent debate to have here.
1) I am drunk, get in my car and get pulled over. I am clearly guilty of drunk driving.
2) Girl and I get drunk at a party and we bang. The next day she says she was too drunk to consent.
In scenario 1, even though I am drunk, I am apparently still responsible for my decision to drive. In scenario 2, she is not responsible for giving concent because she is drunk. Why? Discuss.
Another scenario:
3) You get hammered to the edge of a coma and "consent" to anal sex with a homosexual.
Even though you're a circus clown troll, I do believe the legal limit should be raised from .08 to something like .12 because you could get a DUI prob from like 2 beers.
dumbass
Also, for what its worth, I think the .08 limit is quite a bit too high. Many people are quite tipsy by the time they have 4 beers. This limit basically allows non-heavy drinkers to drink as much as they want and then drive (since non-heavy drinkers are not likely to drink more than 6 beers in 2 hours, which would be borderline legal assuming 1 beer/hr processing time) .
Too high? I am a pretty big guy and can slam alcohol.
BAC needs to be based on weight.
It makes ZERO fucking sense that as a fit and active adult male weighing 230 lbs, my BAC is the same level as some soccer mom bitch that weighs 90 lbs.
^^^I'd quit drinking my friend and never, ever, ever speak of that again. I'd of course kill the homo and blame it on the alchohol if caught.
my thoughts exactly
Since BAC is the concentration of alcohol in your system doesn't that mean it is proportional to your weight? You are larger than the 90lb soccer mom, thus have more blood, thus the same amount of alcohol would result in you having a lower BAC. Every BAC calculator that I have seen has weight as an input.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_alcohol_content
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_alcohol_content[/quote]
I stand corrected.
On another note:
"≥0.50 = Death"
sounds like a challenge.
I read this thread at work and was laughing the whole time.
Thank you.
Also this would be an incredibly retarded idea. Most people don't drink and drive now because of the fear of getting pulled over. Those who do just do so because "I'm not going to get caught this time" If you eliminate that fear...I'll cease being on the roads after the time of 6pm.
I admit drunk driving is a little blown out of proportion. How many people die from shitty drivers every year? Or senior citizen drivers? If you suck at driving sober, you're gonna suck at driving drunk also. If you know how to drive and you're not a light weight, driving over the legal limit should be legal.
There are a lot of bad drivers but drunk drinking is just wrong.
Banana for the profile pic though.
^^^ Dumbest thing I've ever heard. As many as half of driving fatalities are caused by drunk drivers. That's a breathtaking statistic, not something that's chalked up to "shitty drivers" being drunk.
The statistic itself is retarded. How is one to know if an accident is "alcohol related"? If you are plastered at a red light and get rear-ended by a sober person that would be considered "alcohol related" I'm sure. Exactly how is it determinable which accidents would or would not have occurred without alcohol? I am not saying drunk driving should be legal or not, but saying X% of accidents are alcohol related is absurd....the true statistic is unknowable and thinking about for more then a second rather then just repeating something you read would make that clear. You are just regurgitating BS you learned in health class in high school.
Hey, moron, can you not read? "As many as" is the key phrase. About every study available indicates that it's between one quarter and one half of all accidents that are alcochol related, hence "as many as". That isn't an "exact percent" unless you're some sort of illiterate. Each study has its own metric, but what we know is that a disproportionate number of people are MURDERED by incredibly self-centered and reckless people who have no consideration for the lives of others.
You were the one citing the number as evidence, not me. You called it "eye popping". As you seem to grasp, the 50% number is completely made up and we know this because a real figure would be impossible to calculate. As many as 75% of stupid posts are caused by faulty statistics.
The statistics, while having some room for ambiguous interpretations, clearly point to the current laws drastically reducing the amount of carnage. While it's entirely true that some people hold their liquer better, there's really no way of objectively quantifying this. If the laws are too vague, they become either unenforceable OR are so subjective they could be used against anyone for anything at all.
Back when I was a bartender it seriously pissed me off because I could have a bunch of drinks, drive someone home if need be, and come back to the bar but was always worried about getting a DWI (I never did). However, those same rules were tied to others that protected me: if some knucklehead let my place, got in his car, and killed someone (...and they did), we could easily make the case that we offered a cab, pointed out the the no drunk driving rules, and even cut them off after a point. Nothing was stopping them from walking down the block to the next place, but it prevented the drunk driver from making it everyone else's fault if they killed someone.
I didn't cite ANY number. I cited the FACT that a variety of studies have indicated that "as many as half" of all driving fatalities are alcohol related. That's not citing a number--that's citing the high end of a range, genius, hence the term "as many as".
nm
yes the carnage has been greatly reduced by drunk driving laws...my study says a 75% reduction in deaths! (hmmm I wonder if anything else has changed about automobiles or driving over this period)
I think Americans by nature just get bitchy when they're told what to do or have to follow any rules. All fine and well, our government is too controlling. But some rules really do make sense and I really have no patience or sympathy for people that need to live in an alternate version of reality.
Besides, altered reality is best done drinking anyway :)
Yes and rules like this carry no costs i suppose? Do you realize the opportunity costs involved in making something so difficult to enforce illegal? Literally millions of hours are spent every year enforcing these laws...I even sat in class in public school listening to subsidized lectures with all the BS stats you guys cite. I wonder what all that time and money may have accomplished if they werent spent on this issue? These opportunity costs are the immeasurable counter-weight to your equally immeasurable claim that these laws work.
I am not even saying drunk driving should be legal...I'm just saying being mindless about it and rattling off 100% made-up stats (which BTW are usually invented by people whose livelihoods depend on these laws ie law enforcement agencies) isnt the way to defend the position if you really want to defend it beyond calling people stupid.
Like all government intervention you have to measure the costs vs the benefits. In this case the costs are very high indeed and the benefits are very poorly defined.
wow
it's not like LEAs don't have agendas. for instance: hundreds of people are killed each year in high speed chases. LEAs have done their own research on this and found that they are unnecessary; there are safer and sure ways of catching suspects who bolt. but the policy in a lot of jurisdictions is to chase, because cops want to chase. it's exciting. yes, that's the reason. cops want to play adam-12.
i am naturally suspicious when they play up threats like drunk driving, ethnic gangs, the drug menace, etc etc
drunk driving should become the next extreme sport, like motorcross or skateboarding without those pussy helmets.
Great idea, you also have to do it in a Yaris in the fast lane.
I have no doubt your joking... but be careful what you ask for. This shyte is no joking mater.... everyone makes mistakes when they are slaughtered - but talk to anyone that has hurt/taken someones life while they are drunk, they tell you they would rather have been on the receiving end.
A lot of things to troll about, but for shits sake - not this
Drunk driving laws passed in the '80s and early '90s made sense. I am not sure why we are suspending licenses and sending folks to jail over .05 BACs and people happening to take legal prescription drugs and just being bad drivers, though.
Stepping outside every day involves risk. We can't eliminate risk. And we shouldn't let a lobbying organization founded by angry mothers continue restricting the rights of drivers in the name of its own survival.
Drunk driving laws passed 30 years ago were probably smart. Now we are probably going too far.
Ok, but these folks are 18 and should be allowed to make their own decisions if they are subject to the draft and eligible for the death penalty. Otherwise, maybe NYC should make it illegal for anyone besides a man between the ages of 40 and 65 to drive a car, since these people seem to be the safest drivers. Maybe we should make it illegal for people to walk alone after dark. We can do many things to protect people from themselves, but that is not what this country is about.The national minimum drinking age act is one of the worst abuses of state sovereignty in US history. I understand if you want to regulate collar counties or a certain distance of the border, but what teens do in Cedar Rapids, Iowa has very little influence on the rest of the country. If we are going to trample a state's sovereignty over teen drinking, let's at least do a better job of regulating mercury emissions and SO2 emissions that cross state lines. Mercury and SO2 pollution kills many more thousands of people, but teenagers between 18 and 21 don't have the same lobbyists the coal companies do.
Well said.
If you're 18 and can go to war, you might as well as have the freedom to drink a beer.
For the OP, if your loved one was tragically killed by a drunk driver I doubt you would've created this absurd thread.
I never understood the logic of if your 18 and can go to war, you might as well have the freedom to drink a beer.
To me that line is stupid argument!
1) Why is this fucking thread in I-banking forum?
2) Driving drunk is retarded. It puts your life/safety in jeopardy, as well as other people's.
3) My high school friend was killed in a car accident with his brother also in his car. He was hit by a 22-year old moron who was driving after a dozen shots of Vodka, driving at 70 mph, and while being barely able to walk straight. Thanks to him, I lost a dear friend - who was a wonderful, smart, and cool kid who grew up with me since we were six years old. I will never forgive that motherfucker. What is really shitty is that it is this fucker who should have died, not my friend. This guy just got couple of ribs broken and left leg fucked up, which was fixable after surgery.
4) Do NOT EVER drive after getting drunk. Get a cap, or just sleep at a nearby place. Seriously.
anyone else think that the OP was trying to make an analogy for government regulation of the financial system?
No, drunk drivers don't have lobbyists.
But in all seriousness, banks don't kill people.
I think the first post wraps this thread up quite nicely.
If you're willing to let a doctor whose had 7 shots (or a blood alcohol level equivalent of whatever gets you a DUI) perform heart surgery on YOUR LOVED ONES then I think you can drive as fucking drunk as you want.
After all, why should the safety of others stop you from getting your drink on?
Your comparing taking away some dumb young adult's ability to drink with taking away the ability for people to travel efficiently? Really? Drinking is a privilege. So is driving, but driving actually serves a purpose.
The real question is whether we should be letting a bunch of insurance industry lobbyists and angry mothers take away more of our rights in the name of pragmatism. I think that's stupid. We have already increased the driving age to 19 in some states in the name of pragmatism.
In New York City, cars are a want, not a need. You can get anywhere you want on a carefully managed and controlled subway which is much safer for you. Also, we have a huge traffic problem. Since driving isn't a right, as you say, let's say that all drivers licenses for women and men under 40 are null and void within the city limits. Park your car outside, walk to the subway, and travel safely. It may add an hour to your commute, but what difference does that make? Life isn't about living freely- it is about pragmatism and mitigating risk.
Sailing is a privilege, not a right. Thousands of people drown every year and it is not required for our economy. Let's ban it.
Olympic ski races are dangerous. Same with the bobsled run and the luge. We cannot let our athletes injure themselves and you do not need to commute to work in a bobsled. Bobsledding is a privilege, not a right, and w have decided to make it illegal across the board.
Eating meat is a privilege, not a right. Millions of people in America choose to subsist on vegan diets and meat kills innocent farm animals. Let's ban it.
We can go on and on if we want.
I have a better idea. Let's stop having the federal government decide what is safe for our citizens or not. If Wyoming's citizens and legislature decide that they don't mind their kids drinking- that society is willing to accept whatever negative externalities may come, that has very little impact on New York. You may disagree with Wyoming's decision to let their citizens live a little more freely, but it has no impact on you- the drinking age is staying at 21 in New York (heck we are even raising the driving age to 40 here), so what's the problem?
IlliniPorgrammer, here's where you're fundamentally wrong--the federal government hasn't decided what's good for its citizens with regard to drinking and driving. We live in a democratic republic and the overwhelming majority of citizens support laws against drunk driving. Why? Because abusing your PRIVILEGE to drive and getting drunk and killing someone with your car violates the fundamental right to life of everyone else, especially the victim.
You are still given the right/privilege to drink and the privilege to drive, you simply are not allowed to combine the 2 as has been agreed upon by an overwhelming majority of the populace.
lol you never miss a chance to advertise your two-digit IQ and your third-grade reading comprehension. how about reading the last part of IP's post where he says that the law should be devolved onto the states. don't like wyoming? stay out of there.
seriously, when you are not posting your idiotic neocon talking points like a mildly lobotomized thomas friedman you never miss a chance to miss the point.
you've got no skills, dude. you can't follow a debate. people place facts and reasoning in front of you that shatter your imbecilic worldview and you throw a tantrum, plug your ears, squeeze your eyes shut and say "nah nah nah i can't hear you."
i'm going to write my parents an extra nice christmas card this year. i want to thank them for sending me to good schools all my life, giving me fine books to read, teaching me languages and taking me abroad, introducing me to people all over the world. i don't see how you go through life as the clownish rube that you are. i couldn't do it.
The states have the right to set laws on drunk driving and they should not be coerced into it.
I don't disagree with any of this. But I think we are going too far when we start lowering the per-se limit from .08 to .06 or .05. Many folks can drive just fine at .10, and honestly, below .10, more evidence should be provided that the driver was a hazard to others than blood alcohol contents prior to convicting someone of drunk driving.Drunk driving laws from prior to the National Minimum Drinking Age Act largely make sense, and some of the laws passed afterwards do, too.
That said, nobody has explained to me why the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT has any business forcing Wyoming to make it illegal for 19-year-olds (hundreds of miles from any state line) to drink. Nobody has explained to me that, while it is legal for me to shoot somebody who trespasses onto my private property, I can be arrested for operating a bicycle drunk on it. Nobody has explained to me why .06 makes a good per-se limit when we know more than 50% of the population can safely operate a vehicle at .06 or .07 and some can even operate safely at .08 or .09. Per-se is designed to say that no matter what defense you can provide, you're drunk if you have this much alcohol in your body. Shouldn't the government be required to do more to prove you were drunk if you had only had two beers? Finally, nobody has explained to me why we are treating the general public like common criminals with ads from the NHTSA showing "Police are cracking down everywhere" on folks who don't wear seatbelts and folks who drive drunk.
I am all for taking away the licenses of drunk drivers; I am not for turning us into a police state. And whenever we have a debate on "Has MADD gone too far?" the MADD folks suddenly turn this into a straw man on whether it's ok to drive drunk.
Regardless, when drunk drivers who haven't hurt anybody in NY are spending more time in prison than the wealthy doctor who killed Micheal Jackson, you know the system is broken.
This man speaks the truth.
my drunk driving > sober women and/or asian driving
I think we all agree that driving while oriental and driving while female should be banned.
The laws ARE devoted to the states, jackass. There is NO federal law against drinking and driving. Every single state has its own laws. In fact, some states have different names for their drunk driving laws, such as Driving Under the Influence (DUI) and Driving While Intoxicated (DWI). This isn't rocket science, genius.
You're an absolute and transparent jackass.
State drunk driving rules:
http://www.ghsa.org/html/stateinfo/laws/impaired_laws.html
VTech: States get mad amounts of money from the fed for having the drinking age be 21+.
DUI is .08 in most places and DWI is .05 or .06. That means 2-3 drinks in 1 hour and the majority of people are at least over the DWI limit.
The DUI laws were created to "prevent" drunk driving. Except they have done little to nothing to change the amount of drunk driving. The idiots (of which I used to be, I still drive when I've had 3 or 4 drinks in me, but I'm a pretty big guy) will get wasted and try and drive, and the smart people won't.
http://reason.com/archives/2010/10/11/abolish-drunk-driving-laws
I like the above article, but there are obviously some holes in it.
DM, state funding for roads is only tied to certain aspects of drunk driving laws, such as laws associated with additional punishment for high BAC. All states have their own drunk driving laws enacted out of popular support. Besides, libertarians and Reason Magazine would/should find the idea of federal funding of roads to be offensive. The states should just say no to the money, right?
I've read several studies that indicate drunk driving laws have reduced drunk driving deaths by 30% in the last 30 years, so it's kind of a strawman to make a blanket statement that these laws make no impact. Apparently many researchers believe they do.
http://www.citypages.com/2010-06-09/news/do-dwi-laws-work/
Here is an article that argues AGAINST drunk driving laws and they point out that all traffic fatalities are down 25% and accidentally point out that drunk driving fatalities are down 38% over the last 3 decades. There is almost certainly some statistical benefit to drunk driving laws.
I believe that's what you are referring to, and their argument is that the safety of cars has gotten better and that DWI/DUI fatalities would have dropped without the laws anyways because the cars are more safe. If you read the article I posted, it makes the case for "reckless driving" laws. There are absolutely some shitty drivers out there that are more a threat on the road then drunks. The article focuses on the change from the .1 to .08 BAC for DUIs, but it uses those points to make a case for better laws.
On top of the safety measures taken, there are some other considerations, too. Namely, the violation of our rights. The Supreme Court said DUI checkpoints are seizures, but they're allowable because they are a public safety threat. We also don't know how accurate BAC tests are because the government won't release test results.
This website (http://www.popcenter.org/problems/drunk_driving/) states that people above .15 are at a much higher risk for fatal accidents, though people at lower BACs are still at increased risk. So why, in that case, do we have DUI laws at .08? Why didn't we leave them at .10? Why not have them at 1.4 or 1.5? Why not just make the penalties for causing an accident while impaired more harsh? I guarantee you that if the penalty for causing an accident with a BAC over .08 resulted in a minimum 3 month jail sentence in addition to a fine/reparations, very few people would do it. Right now, you get pulled over for/convicted of DUI, you pay ~$10k, go to some meetings, and you're done.
I'm not saying abolish all DUIs, but like the article I posted said, they need to make these laws so that they focus more on the individual case. Also, as a kind of sidebar, getting your driver's license is ridiculously easy. There are a lot of people out there who should have lost them a long time ago (too many cab drivers to count; that women putting on makeup with her left hand, talking on her phone with her right, and steering with her knees; the guy shaving and eating on the way to the office; soccer mom/dad who is talking on the phone, to their kids, and trying to drive at the same time).
I think we need harsher penalties for people who have caused some sort of physical damage to a person or property because of their impairment, whether that's a beer, cell phone, pot, coke, whatever. If we started to tear into the people that actually caused issues with their impairment, rather than the people that might cause an issue because of their impairment, that will deter a lot of people from doing stupid shit.
DM, you and I are not disagreeing. You're saying the drunk driving laws need to be more effective, not simply arbitrary. If that's what you're saying then I totally agree.
But keep in mind who is arguing the point about abolishing drunk driving laws altogether--libertarians and extreme libertarians. They're arguing that there is no real evidence that drunk driving laws save lives because all deaths are down as a result of other external things; therefore, we're violating people's so-called rights by enforcing ineffective laws. Well those external forces bringing down traffic fatalities include very un-libertarian things, such as lower speed limits, funding for better roads, vehicle safety standards, and stricter enforcement of laws, including DUI/DWI laws. This contradicts the very point libertarians are making about DUI laws being a matter of personal freedom. If they're being intellectually honest they'd say that many of the external factors that are bringing down the fatality rate are violations or psuedo-violations of personal freedom.
One can't intellectually defend the position: we need greater personal freedom; DUI laws don't work; all traffic deaths are down anyway so there's no real evidence that DUI laws work; keep government out of my life. It's a philosophically indefensible position.
However, arguing for DUI laws that make sense and save more lives makes sense. I'm not arguing against that position.
Yea, I know we're not VT. I do have one little thing, even though I don't identify as libertarian anymore: not all libertarians believe we should drop all laws (anarcho-capitalist), even though a lot do.
While I believe we need BETTER drunk driving laws, I also think we need to:
1) abolish DUI checkpoints, this is a violation of my rights. They shouldn't be allowed to pull me over just because it's 2am on the weekend.
2) abolish breathalyzers, at least until they start releasing information on how accurate they are. I will never take one, sober or not, because I don't know exactly how they work.
Anyways, I think we have the same general idea...
It's not about the drinking age or you being responsible for your own safety or the states' sovereignty, it's about YOU staying the fuck away from ME when you're driving and putting the people around you in danger. Drink all you fucking want, drink at 12 for all I care, drink until you shit out your liver, but stay the fuck away from the roads and public places. Seriously, I don't care if you kill yourself, it's your right (unless you're religious) as long as it does not affect the others safety.
It is reasonable to assume that people between the ages of 18 and 21 are stupid and irresponsible (the college crowd, etc). Whatever penalties and laws we have in place right now, the ones that discourage this particular party driven subset of our population from drinking and driving, are fucking fine by me.
Ok, so the pro-regulation folks still haven't said why we need Washington to tell states when they MUST set the age of majority. If you want to have safe driving in NY or NJ, fine. Vote for it. But what gives you the right to say what goes on in Wyoming?
Also, if I get drunk and decide to peddle a tricycle around on my own private property when nobody else is supposed to be around, why the heck is your foot getting in my way? Trespass onto my property when I am sober, and I am allowed to shoot you in many states. Trespass onto my property when I am drunk and peddling a tricycle, bicycle, or any other "vehicle", and I go to jail.
Finally, so much is made of 18-21 year olds drinking, but the fact is that mercury and sulfur emissions kill many more people every year than drunk drivers. If anyone needs evidence that lobbyists rule our government, look at the success of the coal lobby and insurance lobby in getting their way.
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