hi and thanks for taking questions!

Did anyone in your analyst class come from a nontraditional background? for example, not straight from undergrad? It doesn't have to be your class, it can be the class before you or incoming analyst.

If yes, then can you please give some insight about their background? thank you.

 

Turtles -- Networking with everyone is equally important. banking is all about teams -- and people at all levels collaborate with each other -- so I'd say that it's more important that you make a connection with someone that is meaningful.

Maseratimike -- generally I've seen that people tend to come straight out of college. there are exceptions of people that come out of graduate programs, but banks in general tend to hire analysts out of school for FT. the only exception I can think of would be an off-cycle lateral with another bank.

 
  1. How often do you go out to eat with analysts for lunch?
  2. Does work begin RIGHT after training (for instance if you're a regional analyst and flown to NY for summer training) or do you get the weekend to finish moving and etc.?
  3. How long did it take you to get used to the groove of things (i.e. waking up, working late, getting shit done properly)?
  4. How often do you go out a week?
 

I'm a 1st year coming from a target working at an elite boutique in NYC.

1) I try to eat lunch with other analysts everyday -- helps split up the day. What we do is pick up lunch from places around the office and then we'll eat together -- if too busy, I'll just eat at my desk. 2) My training was in NYC -- so I remember we had the weekend off before work in the office started, and I believe that people who had to travel got a few days off before starting as well, esp. people who were traveling long distances. 3) Getting up and working late shouldn't be too much of an adjustment -- training tries to ease you into that. Getting things done correctly and efficiently depends highly on the analyst and how much previous banking experience you have -- but if you're starting fresh, I'd say that generally in a few months you get the hang of things. Attitude is everything. 4) When not extremely busy (read: leaving every day past 1am), if you can get out 1-2 nights a week, that's a good thing. Sometimes you'll find that it can be better to just get some sleep though. On the other hand, it's important to stay in touch with friends because the job definitely doesn't make that easy. 1st yr is also a lot different than 2nd year in terms of free time -- the efficiency you get in your first year is key to that.

 

Thanks for answering my question. I had a few more if you don't mind and have time to answer.

What is approximate age of the oldest analyst that you have come across? What were the key attributes of analysts with no prior work / internships in finance and average GPAs, 3.1-3.4 from target schools ? ( this is assuming that there were a few)

Thank you

 

roymondito -- re: work schedule -- training for boutiques tends to last for 3 weeks, whereas at BB's I think it's 6. we may have stayed later for boutiques, but generally you'll have class until around 3-5 and then you'll have group work that'll take you between 30 min and a couple hours depending on the day. So usually you'll get out sometime early-mid evening. Some nights we were there pretty late. In general it's not bad at all though.

 

maseratimike -- I've heard of an incoming analyst being 25 before. I work in a group that is pretty finance-intensive, so I don't really know anyone that has come in FT with no finance experience -- there are SA's from liberal arts target schools that don't have finance experience, but usually have pretty high GPA's. Not sure what your situation is -- you can DM me if you want -- but if you want to market yourself well as a potential analyst -- key skills are positive attitude, perseverance, confidence (but not overconfidence), curiosity/excitement about the business, attention to detail, leadership, and teamwork.

 
oppcostofcapital:
maseratimike -- you can DM me if you want --

That is fantastic. Thank you, and I will PM you in a few weeks when I finish reading all the vault/wetfeet guides so I don't ask you any redundant questions. Thanks again

 
maseratimike:
oppcostofcapital:
maseratimike -- you can DM me if you want --

That is fantastic. Thank you, and I will PM you in a few weeks when I finish reading all the vault/wetfeet guides so I don't ask you any redundant questions. Thanks again

What is this, 2005? WSO guides FTW: //www.wallstreetoasis.com/guide-to-finance-interviews

Good luck man! :-)

Also, to anyone asking basic questions I strongly suggest you also read the FAQ section of WSO here: //www.wallstreetoasis.com/frequently-asked-questions which also has a helpful section on Investment Banking

 

Thanks alot for answering my question. Just a couple: 1. For training, what's the dress like (business casual?) 2. Any tips in picking up the work faster (becoming more efficient and making less mistakes)? 3. Any tips for staying awake for those random days you just feel tired? 4. Prior to training did you go through the provided training materials?

 
  1. Some places are business casual, some are business formal. If its business formal, usually you can take your jacket off during the day unless there's a client meeting.
  2. Unfortunately there's no substitute for hard work in this area. Put in the work on the front end to discover as many shortcuts as possible in Excel and PPT (keyboard), in terms of creating graphs, in terms of creating certain deliverables you'll have to create with regularity, and in figuring out what people you work with want. The quicker you do that, the faster you'll feel efficient. In terms of correctness -- always double check anything you send out to someone else on your team -- whether its an email, model, ppt, wherever it is in the process. When you make mistakes, make note of them or write them down and then avoid making them again. As you get more efficient, sometimes its good to do something very quickly, check it, wait and do something else, and come back to check once more before sending so that you have fresh eyes.
  3. Some people drink coffee, some people drink a lot of water. Some days you just have to power through it. It's hard. You just have to find your own way to adapt.
  4. Yeah -- it's good to go through what they give you -- esp. if you have not seen finance before. It'll make training go smoother on the front end, which will cumulatively save you a lot of time overall.
 

any suggestions for how a current SA should network with Bankers at other firms? (with hopes of getting a FT offer)

 

1) Assuming you're in NYC? A lot of people tend to live in the Murray Hill / East Village area -- if you work in Midtown you'll prob find a good number of people who live in Midtown. There'll be so many places to choose from, best to get a sense of what your non-negotiables are and then talk to ppl you know and/or a broker. 2) This depends on the group -- if you're doing a standard industry group or M&A group -- generally it's not all intense, but if you're working on something live or time-sensitive, it can get really crazy. 3) Best to stick with white and blue shirts / conservative pants / suits if your firm is business formal. I've heard numbers between 3 and 6 pants / suits.

 

beenprepping -- key is to be discreet. always speak positively about your current job (the street is a small world). Generally, I've seen that getting an SA offer if you're doing IBD your junior summer is a critical determinant of advancing in FT processes -- so I'd make sure you focus on doing a great job at the place you're currently working. Unless you're in an accelerated process if you had an SA offer from some place or you advanced far in their SA process, generally whether you get an SA-->FT ends up being pretty important.

 
oppcostofcapital:
beenprepping -- key is to be discreet. always speak positively about your current job (the street is a small world). Generally, I've seen that getting an SA offer if you're doing IBD your junior summer is a critical determinant of advancing in FT processes -- so I'd make sure you focus on doing a great job at the place you're currently working. Unless you're in an accelerated process if you had an SA offer from some place or you advanced far in their SA process, generally whether you get an SA-->FT ends up being pretty important.

Hey, thanks for doing this.

I just finished my junior year at a target and I'm doing my SA at a tiny boutique in NYC. I'm trying to leverage the experience into a FT offer at a BB or elite boutique during the next recruiting cycle. How possible is a move like that and do you have any specific advice for making the jump?

Also, you said that getting a FT offer from your SA position is pretty important. I'm pretty sure that the boutique I will be working at doesn't hire for FT out of the summer program. How damaging will this be?

I talked to a guy in PE and he said that it's likely that the FT interviewer won't believe me when I tell him that the boutique doesn't give out FT offers. Do you think that's likely?

 

Thanks again man, I really appreciate this (wish I had sb's to throw)

1) If you don't mind me asking, what do you do to pass time on your down time? 2) Since you're a 1st year, I'm assuming you went through the Buyside recruiting process already? If so how was the experience with going through the process?

 

1) Generally end up reading up on the markets (seekingalpha.com, wsj.com) to see what's going on, talking with other people who sit near me if they're free, or checking out the news / occasional funny site. The more efficient you get, you'll find that the less free time you'll have because you'll internalize the importance of getting everything done ASAP so that you can get home. That's a big change from beginning of program to now -- when everything is new, you know you're going to be there for a while, so you end up having more time because you have to wait for things, whereas once you get a feel for how your teams/deals work, you can anticipate / automate things later. 2) Recruiting and working at the same time is probably the hardest part of banking for analysts not looking to become 3rd yr analysts. Buyside recruiting this year is strange, because a lot of the megafunds have not started recruiting yet, while a lot of MM PE and HFs have gone. I'm fortunate to be done the process but will admit that it was very stressful. Key to it is to decide what you want ASAP and then go for it. You'll minimize the pain of it.

 

Re: megafunds -- after doing banking you'll get a sense of what you want to spend your time doing assuming that that involves staying in finance and moving to the buyside. Some people love deals and process and working with management teams, some people love financial modeling (lbo, m&a, etc), and some people love using public information to assess the value of interests in businesses relative to where they trade. Figuring out which bucket you're in is step 1 (and takes a while). Figuring out where best fits that bucket is step 2. Figuring out what you need to know / do to succeed is that bucket is step 3. I think that working at a megafund would be an amazing opportunity, but relative to other opportunities based on how I view my strengths, I made a personal choice to recruit elsewhere.

 

Re: typical day -- no day is typical -- hah. but you know that.

Get into the office around 9 or so, depending if you have stuff left to do from the previous night or someone on your team needs you to do something new. Make Powerpoint presentations, do research, work in excel on models, communicate with team members. Lunch is anywhere between 12-2 based on how busy you are (sometimes 3pm if you don't get a chance). The same thing happens after lunch, and the same thing happens after dinner. Day can last anywhere from generally 8-9pm on a great night to pulling all-nighters on a much tougher night. All depends on the time sensitivity of your projects. When you get free time you read news or talk to ppl around you. Same thing pretty much, when its busy same schedule applies to weekends, although most ppl don't get in until at least noon on weekends. You do the same thing for 2 years. Hopefully you get out 1-2 nights a week and see friends etc, but its highly dependent on the projects you're on. Things are also infinitely better in the 2nd year than the 1st year due to efficiency. the difference even between month 3 and month 10 is staggering.

Very intense lifestyle, but you learn a lot.

 

Not sure if the training/modeling post is a troll post, but I'll answer it.

Yes -- you absolutely get training - 3wks for boutiques, 6 weeks for bulge brackets usually.

Modeling depends on your group, and even within modeling, there are a lot of subsectors.

There's DCF / MM / LBO modeling, which if you're in the right group you'll see a fair amount of in your two years. Much different than building out operating model from the bottoms up -- building out revenue from growth rates and really thinking about what drives businesses. You see more of the latter on the buyside probably. Nevertheless, knowing how to model out corporate events (DCF / MM / LBO) is very useful in banking and is a great entry point for understanding how to build out more serious standalone company models.

 
oppcostofcapital:
Not sure if the training/modeling post is a troll post, but I'll answer it.

Yes -- you absolutely get training - 3wks for boutiques, 6 weeks for bulge brackets usually.

Modeling depends on your group, and even within modeling, there are a lot of subsectors.

There's DCF / MM / LBO modeling, which if you're in the right group you'll see a fair amount of in your two years. Much different than building out operating model from the bottoms up -- building out revenue from growth rates and really thinking about what drives businesses. You see more of the latter on the buyside probably. Nevertheless, knowing how to model out corporate events (DCF / MM / LBO) is very useful in banking and is a great entry point for understanding how to build out more serious standalone company models.

It was Not a "troll" post. It was a genuine question. Don't know why are you being so defensive. Thank you for the explanation.

 

re: laterals -- not hard, per se, if you're doing a great job at your boutique -- but in terms of actually finding the opportunity, that's the toughest part. networking and being apprised of people moving around is critical, because usually lateral hires only occur when an analyst leaves a group.

re: ER -- not all boutique banks have ER -- so I can't tell you much about that.

Re: foreigners with visas, I know people in banking in NYC that are in that situation -- so it's not totally uncommon, but I am a U.S. citizen so I don't know the particulars of the hiring process with respect to that.

 

I understand that Ops isn't at all related to IBD, but do you know many people who are FTs who did a Sophomore SA in BB Ops, or would it have been a more impressive internship at that stage? Is it likely that the bank would check how well you performed in Ops?

With regard to getting future FO SAs or FT offers, do part-time boutique internships during term help much in your opinion?

Thanks!

Damn you Rodger! My WSO Blog
 

re: facetime -- I can't speak for every group on the street, but my understanding is that most places want you to leave when you have nothing left to do. highly dependent on the firm / culture though.

re: ops -- In general -- i'd say that it's impressive to get a SA spot at a BB in ops. Key though is to be able to articulate what you learned there and how your experience there fits in with your overall goal / career path, in which you see banking playing a part. Will largely come up in the interview process. In general, for SA and FT interviews, having your story down and knowing why you want to do banking is key. People in banking are generally pretty good at telling whether you're genuinely interested in the field. If you worked at the same bank in ops as you're applying, maybe they'd check, or if someone knew someone in that group, they might check, but in general the interview is where it'll play the most important part.

re: PT boutique term-time internships -- any experience you can get regarding doing what we do in banking before you apply will be a benefit for you, because it tells people you have some experience, and that you liked it and want to get more experience which is why you're applying. So yeah, if you can get a part-time boutique internship, I'd say go for it.

 

How tough were the interviews for SA? Did the WSO guides help greatly? How much networking did you do for SA? Which industry/product group are you in?

Thanks!

The difference between successful people and others is largely a habit - a controlled habit of doing every task better, faster and more efficiently.
 

SA interviews are usually a mix of fit and technical, but are probably less technical than FT. In terms of SA -- fit is just as important as technical. Most interviewers won't try to make questions too hard -- but the key is to ask questions and admit that you aren't sure rather than pretend like you do know the answer and say something blatantly incorrect. a lot of banking is about identifying mistakes, communicating properly, and working to make sure that the same thing doesn't happen twice.

WSO and similar guides help a lot for technicals -- I'd try to get two different guides to make sure you aren't missing anything if you can get your hands on them. Many elite boutiques focus mainly on M&A, and I'm in M&A -- have worked on several industries.

As long as you're in range, somewhere in the 3's GPA-wise, you've got a shot at banking. Odds are better if you're GPA is higher in terms of getting looks based on your resume, but in general interviews are most important. I did non-banking finance-related stuff during my non-jr. summers, but there are plenty of people on the street who spent several summers doing non-banking non-finance things. Attitude and desire to learn / do the job are probably the most important qualifications you can have. My advice is do your best in school and spend time doing things you care about. If you do that, and you decide yourself how banking fits into that story and are able to convey that effectively, you'll be good.

 

Thank you for doing this.

I will enter FT recruiting with a PE internship under my belt, but no SA at an IB. Other than taking TTS/BIWS/WSP, how can I overcome that disadvantage? I might be able to get an internship at an IB during the fall, but that would start after FT recruiting has (i.e. it would not be on my resume). I have and am continuing to network.

 

there's plenty of opptys to get relevant banking experience in a PE SA experience, esp for lev fin and m&a groups. If you can, try to get on a project that will get you LBO experience, that'll definitely be relevant. most important thing is to learn the point of an LBO, and to use that to understand the point of a DCF and the point of a merger model (LBO = affordability analysis for a financial buyer, DCF = intrinsic valuation of the company's projected future stream of cash flows, MM = affordability analysis for a strategic buyer) etc. If you can get there and be able to talk about the things you do well in FT interviews, you should be fine.

 

How do Bankers "show" their wealth? Do they brag about buying X or spending X amount? Showing off expensive car keys, etc.. Or is it a subtle and humble environment?

 

It seems in banking your occupation crosses over your identity. 2 totally different things. I hope it doesn't go to some of your heads.

Who you are and what you do should always stay separate.

Reminds me of this kid in my M&A class who thought he was so hot because he was at ML. I wiped the floor with him in every area of every event we had.

 
Best Response

SA recruiting -- you could say that interviewers won't expect as much because you're younger and because it's just a 10 week deal and if they don't like you, they can find someone else to take your spot. FT recruiting tends to be more serious and has a lot fewer spots. Disclaimer: As mentioned below -- anything is fair game on your resume, so if you went to Wharton or Stern et al or you said you did a lot of finance stuff, you should be prepared to answer finance/acctg questions related to the work that you have done.

A lot of programs tend to fill a big portion of their class in the summer, while some will get rid of many of their summers and plan to get a good number from FT. You should start prepping for FT recruiting during the summer, and use your summer internship (if you have one) to start that prep by going over your finance and your accounting, knowing your resume, knowing your story, etc. I'd say SA and FT recruiting are pretty similar (main difference is that FT is more finance-intensive and there are fewer spots) -- but to give yourself a good shot at any standard IBD generalist role -- you need to make sure you have some understanding of the following:

1) Everything that you wrote on your resume

You need to be able to talk to anything you wrote or did -- people can and will ask about anything and it's totally fair game -- it's easy to get caught here, so spend the extra time and make sure you've got everything down to where you could summarize the experience in a couple interesting sentences (or more if its related to finance / banking and something that the interviewer might test you on, like what a DCF is if you said you created a DCF analysis with WACC sensitivities or something!). Particularly, being able to talk about previous finance experiences well and how they fit into why you want to do investment banking for 2 years -- that's 104+ weeks -- that's 730 days -- will be very helpful to making the case for why the firm should hire you.

2) Finance and accounting

To be safe (never hurts to be overprepared) you should know the basics / high-level of how a DCF / MM / LBO work and what the point of them is -- as I mentioned earlier in this thread.

You should know how the 3 financials statements flow together. IS = Revenue - Expenses = Net Income. Net income gets adjusted for non-cash items on the income statement and cash-related items on the balance sheet in Cash Flow from Operations. CFO + CF from Investing + CF from Financing = Change in Cash. This change will be reflected in on the balance sheet in the Cash (!) Account. There are other ways the 3 statements connect -- Net Income also connects to the balance sheet via the retained earnings account (Change in Retained Earnings from period 1 to 2 (on 2 side-by-side balance sheets) = Net Income - Dividends Paid). The list goes on and on. Depreciation is an expense on the income statement, gets added back to get to CFO in the indirect method, and affects PPE. (Change in PPE = Capex - Depreciation)

I would also make sure you know your ratios (Interest Coverage Ratio, Days Payable, Return on Equity, etc -- there are a lot -- and how to calculate them). Sometimes you'll get technical questions that can be easily solved if you know these.

Understanding the difference between levered and unlevered cash flows is important. Unlevered FCF go to everyone that owns a piece of the firm. Levered FCF go to everyone that holds equity.

The list goes on and on -- I'd get a couple of the guides (WSO, Vault, etc), and study with friends so you make sure you're not missing anything and that you can speak to this stuff while keeping your cool. In general, chances are, even if you know this stuff down cold, you will probably get an interviewer will ask you something you've never thought of. Key is to ask questions, and if all else fails, say you don't know and would have to look it up. Pretending to know the answer to something and being wrong is bad -- people can usually pick this up, and especially in FT where the firm is making a hiring decision for 2 years on faith, it's generally very not smart to try to pull a fast one or something.

3) Fit

Probably as important as anything else in the interview. Be yourself. Act normal. See if you can generate a rapport with your interviewers. Also, ask good questions and find out if they are people with whom you'd want to work, and if the firm seems like a place you'd thrive. The people you work with in banking will absolutely determine your experience -- and 2 years is a long time. So be relaxed, be yourself, and try to find people you fit with. If you are really strong on #1 and #2, and you spend serious time thinking about #3 with respect to the interviews you'll have, you'll give yourself at ending up in a great program where you'll work hard and learn a lot and enjoy the people around you. In banking, that's the good scenario.

With respect to networking, make a game plan as early as possible (even now), and map out the next couple of months. Who have you met so far? What do you need to do to decide what type of bank is best for you? If you're going to be in New York, who do you want to meet up with when you're free? Where do you want to apply? The list of questions goes on -- but they all make sense.

 
oppcostofcapital:
SA recruiting -- you could say that interviewers won't expect as much because you're younger and because it's just a 10 week deal and if they don't like you, they can find someone else to take your spot. FT recruiting tends to be more serious and has a lot fewer spots. Disclaimer: As mentioned below -- anything is fair game on your resume, so if you went to Wharton or Stern et al or you said you did a lot of finance stuff, you should be prepared to answer finance/acctg questions related to the work that you have done.

A lot of programs tend to fill a big portion of their class in the summer, while some will get rid of many of their summers and plan to get a good number from FT. You should start prepping for FT recruiting during the summer, and use your summer internship (if you have one) to start that prep by going over your finance and your accounting, knowing your resume, knowing your story, etc. I'd say SA and FT recruiting are pretty similar (main difference is that FT is more finance-intensive and there are fewer spots) -- but to give yourself a good shot at any standard IBD generalist role -- you need to make sure you have some understanding of the following:

1) Everything that you wrote on your resume

You need to be able to talk to anything you wrote or did -- people can and will ask about anything and it's totally fair game -- it's easy to get caught here, so spend the extra time and make sure you've got everything down to where you could summarize the experience in a couple interesting sentences (or more if its related to finance / banking and something that the interviewer might test you on, like what a DCF is if you said you created a DCF analysis with WACC sensitivities or something!). Particularly, being able to talk about previous finance experiences well and how they fit into why you want to do investment banking for 2 years -- that's 104+ weeks -- that's 730 days -- will be very helpful to making the case for why the firm should hire you.

2) Finance and accounting

To be safe (never hurts to be overprepared) you should know the basics / high-level of how a DCF / MM / LBO work and what the point of them is -- as I mentioned earlier in this thread.

You should know how the 3 financials statements flow together. IS = Revenue - Expenses = Net Income. Net income gets adjusted for non-cash items on the income statement and cash-related items on the balance sheet in Cash Flow from Operations. CFO + CF from Investing + CF from Financing = Change in Cash. This change will be reflected in on the balance sheet in the Cash (!) Account. There are other ways the 3 statements connect -- Net Income also connects to the balance sheet via the retained earnings account (Change in Retained Earnings from period 1 to 2 (on 2 side-by-side balance sheets) = Net Income - Dividends Paid). The list goes on and on. Depreciation is an expense on the income statement, gets added back to get to CFO in the indirect method, and affects PPE. (Change in PPE = Capex - Depreciation)

I would also make sure you know your ratios (Interest Coverage Ratio, Days Payable, Return on Equity, etc -- there are a lot -- and how to calculate them). Sometimes you'll get technical questions that can be easily solved if you know these.

Understanding the difference between levered and unlevered cash flows is important. Unlevered FCF go to everyone that owns a piece of the firm. Levered FCF go to everyone that holds equity.

The list goes on and on -- I'd get a couple of the guides (WSO, Vault, etc), and study with friends so you make sure you're not missing anything and that you can speak to this stuff while keeping your cool. In general, chances are, even if you know this stuff down cold, you will probably get an interviewer will ask you something you've never thought of. Key is to ask questions, and if all else fails, say you don't know and would have to look it up. Pretending to know the answer to something and being wrong is bad -- people can usually pick this up, and especially in FT where the firm is making a hiring decision for 2 years on faith, it's generally very not smart to try to pull a fast one or something.

3) Fit

Probably as important as anything else in the interview. Be yourself. Act normal. See if you can generate a rapport with your interviewers. Also, ask good questions and find out if they are people with whom you'd want to work, and if the firm seems like a place you'd thrive. The people you work with in banking will absolutely determine your experience -- and 2 years is a long time. So be relaxed, be yourself, and try to find people you fit with. If you are really strong on #1 and #2, and you spend serious time thinking about #3 with respect to the interviews you'll have, you'll give yourself at ending up in a great program where you'll work hard and learn a lot and enjoy the people around you. In banking, that's the good scenario.

With respect to networking, make a game plan as early as possible (even now), and map out the next couple of months. Who have you met so far? What do you need to do to decide what type of bank is best for you? If you're going to be in New York, who do you want to meet up with when you're free? Where do you want to apply? The list of questions goes on -- but they all make sense.

What types of questions are you going to ask them? Sometimes I felt that I could not ask them any questions if I talked to them before. Should I ask more about the position then?

 

Buyside interviews are everything I wrote in that big post above + 1) more in-depth acctg and finance questions. 2) modeling tests 3) investment ideas

For PE -- usually you'll have some kind of LBO modeling test unless it's a case-oriented firm in which you'll have a more qualitative interview. Also lots of finance questions and questions about the deals you did in banking. need to know your deals cold.

For HF -- many places will have you build operating models (but not all) and you usually need at least one good investment idea -- which is a lot harder than you think. you need to know a lot about the company's financials, prospects, risks, etc and be able to defend them to ppl who do this for a living. Most places will accept equity pitches regardless if the fund does equity or credit. At this age and from banking, more important how you think than the specifics of your investment philosophy -- HFs hire young ppl so they can mold them.

And, you still have a full-time job. And you usually meet with headhunters as well. It gets hectic.

 

Thanks for opening this thread. I have one question. How would you network with different firms (for FT recruiting) if you already found an internship at a BB this summer? For example, what kind of excuse do you use to request informational interview/coffee chat? Any advice would be highly appreciated.

 

thank you for doing this

1) Can you still get promoted to associate if you get rejected from b schools? The MD/Associates would prob know because of the letters of recommendations

2) Same question, but for PE funds. If you don't get any offers can you stay put and work as an associate? .

 

re: FT recruiting -- would just say that you are trying to learn more about the firm, interested in banking, having a great time @ current BB, and trying to consider in advance all options b/c FT recruiting moves very quickly when august/sept/oct come.

re: promote -- yeah you can promoted without business school. there are MDs who started as analysts at same firm - less common but happens.

usually PE firms are 2 and out. you can apply to other PE firms, apply to HFs, or your firm might let you stay. getting a return offer at PE firms for post-mba is extremely competitive though, so you should def use time in PE to consider what you really want to do.

 

This might be a dumb question, but I have to ask..

How does the typical work station of an IBD analyst look like? You only see pictures of traders sitting in front of 6 to 8 computer screens with Bloomberg on them. But how does the work station of an analyst differ from that? And which programs are always on your screen(s)? Apparently Excel or PPT, but what else?

Thanks man!

 

newspeak -- start networking early. also fair to say in FT interviews that it wasn't a SA --> FT place and you'd be happy to connect them w/ ppl who you worked with. In general the experience you'll get this summer is most important -- just make sure you can explain clearly and confidently the story with the SA position. some places may be skeptical -- you'll just have to be upfront and honest and blow them away with your technicals and your excitement about the prospect of working in investment banking for at least two years. Also, if the firm makes it clear to you that they aren't hiring anyone for FT because they don't have the spots to do it or some other structural reason, after your SA stint feel free to work with them and see if they can help connect you with ppl who do hire full-time, presuming that you do a good job and have ppl that will vouch for your work.

The desk is usually filled with materials you've created -- presentations, information booklets, drafts of presentations, drafts of other presentations, your notes and to do lists, and standard office stuff. Ideally you have a way to keep things organized. People's organizational styles in banking tend to vary widely.

IBD analysts depending on the firm generally only have 1 or 2 screens. Outlook is always open -- web browsers, and then typically some combo of Excel, PPT, and Word depending on what you're doing. I'd suspect that this is not shocking, haha. Working in Excel and PPT and Word is pretty much what we do all day.

 

First of all, really appreciate you doing this.

I'm placed into working in LevFin this summer and was wondering if there is anything I can do in the prior weeks to prepare? While I know I won't be able to contribute much during the summer, I have heard from peers that the best way to get the most exposure is 1) not fuck up with the easy stuff they give you & 2) show that you have some basic knowledge (which I assume can be developed through reading books/guides/forums etc).

Currently reading a book on distressed debt investing (b/c i'm interested), but I was wondering if you know anything I can possibly pick up that would help me more specifically within IBD or Lev Fin.

Thanks!

 

gh15 -- first, a blanket statement -- in general, don't worry about it. hard to prepare for banking in advance. chances are even if you studied the right stuff your group will do things just a little bit differently and you're going to want to do things the way ppl in your group want, period. Plus, I'm assuming you're in or done exams... enjoy the summer. Go do something fun! You're going to be working very hard for 10 weeks.

That being said -- if you wanted to read up on LBO's and how the financing works, that'd be helpful. A good book to read is "Barbarians at the Gate" -- can't remember who wrote it but it tells the story of KKR-Nabisco, a famous leveraged buyout transaction. Gives a lot of good history and is pretty cool b/c it mentions ppl who are still in the business today.

Assuming the distressed debt analysis book you're reading is "Distressed Debt Analysis" by Moyer -- great book -- if it isn't the book you're reading, you should go find it eventually. Probably won't be too relevant to what you'll do this summer, but a great book to read especially if you think you might want to work at a credit hedge fund in the future. If you end up FT in LevFin, this will probably be something you'd consider.

 

Yes, it is the Moyer book. It is surprisingly easy to read given how little I know.

Yes I am enjoying every bit of summer right now haha. One more question, how many shirts do you think are enough for me to get through for the summer? I currently have about 9 shirts and 2 pair of pants (suit pants). Would I possibly need an extra pair of pants? How often do you go to the cleaner?

 

i just had two quick questions to ask.

  1. Do you know how firms retain their summers? Is it mostly that they want to give FT offers to all of their summers? Or is that not the case and its firm specific? I'm the only SA in my group, and there are other groups at my firm that have multiple SAs and summer associates, do you think that'll give me a better shot for a FT offer?

  2. Also, there have been many posts about working the weekends. As an SA, I'm assuming I'll have to go in each weekend. But do they really expect SAs to spend 6-8 hours in the office each weekend even if they have nothing to do? Or is it group specific and depends on how much facetime you need to put in? It doesn't make sense to me since they're paying you at an hourly rate. Please tell me your experience with this.

 
  1. Completely dependent on the firm. Would try to put your focus elsewhere -- if you do a great job during the summer, you'll be fine.

  2. Couple thoughts on working weekends: -- If your team is in the office, you should be there to help. Being MIA when your team is working on a live deal is not a smart thing to do. -- If you really have nothing to do, you don't have to be there. You'll have intense stretches of time, so its best to get rest when you can. --That being said, if you have to be in the office for something anyway, can't hurt to use the time you have this summer to do some extra studying, try to build some models, and get as much out of what you're trying to learn. That doesn't mean staying 10+ hours every weekend, but showing that you have a great attitude and are curious about the job will be viewed very positively.

 

What do you do in your free time? Is it possible to go to the gym 4 (or even 3) times per week?

The difference between successful people and others is largely a habit - a controlled habit of doing every task better, faster and more efficiently.
 

see friends, party, go to the gym, explore the city, try out restaurants in the city -- when I'm not working. You have a lot less free time 1st year than you do 2nd year. It's def possible do to gym 3-4x per week -- you just have to be really dedicated because in banking, it's hard to believe but your time sometimes feels rationed. Amount of free time varies by firm, culture, and group.

 

Hey oppcost,

In terms of the game plan for networking beforehand for FT, should you ever risk start networking during your summer gig? I'm not talking about starting from the beginning of the gig, but more towards the end (maybe with 2-3 weeks left of the program). Is it just smarter to play it safe and start networking as soon as your program is over?

I have heard of some firms doing accelerated processes, or firms just doing things under the radar with FT recruiting where informational interviews (over coffee or office visits) can lead to a simple super-day format interview resulting in offers if you play your cards right. How much of this is true? Do you have any experience with this?

In terms of contacting people, is it the smart way to start by just using the HR contacts you have from SA OCR process? (other than talking to the bankers or alums you know already in some firms).

Thanks a lot!

 

This may be a dumb/weird question, but I'm glad I can at least ask it under the condition of anonymity. For summer analysts, what's normal to bring with you to the office/to have at your desk? Do SAs normally have snacks or anything in their desk? Or do they normally eat only when all the other analyst eat lunch/dinner?

 

First and foremost don't jeopardize ur current SA firm, gh15. That being said accelerated processes do happen. You will have a lot more leverage in them if u have an offer depending when they happen. Never did them myself and not sure how they work but would talk to ur campus career office and firm hr depts about it. Good in general to keep up w bankers and hr depts - can lead to accelerated intvs. Never stop networking - just make sure you do a great job for ur SA firm.

Re food I wouldn't make a big deal out of whatever u bring. Just play it cool and don't let it interfere w ur or anyone else's work. Fine to bring food though.

 

What about with regards to allowances for dinner? Say they give you 20 bucks in seamless or whatever, is there any courtesy rules or anything where you shouldn't really use all the money they give you?

 

Hi I was wondering if you could provide me with some tips with regards to the buyside?

what are interns expected to do, (eg, a 3rd year undergrad student) with a paid position in a HY/distressed focused hedge fund during the summer? typical expectations, and how to exceed those expectations? currently reading moyers distressed debt analysis :s

Thanks

 

(1) Do you ever get any time off, maybe to take a vacation? (2) Since you work so much is it easier to save money, because you don't have time to spend it?

Thanks

Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.
 

How come even though I tell you on Friday "yeah I doubt [enter ticker name] we'll have comments back on the management presentation given Memorial Day, but they could, so keep close to the office / check your black berry," and you don't pick up your black berry or reply to emails when we do?

Ace all your PE interview questions with the WSO Private Equity Prep Pack: http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/guide/private-equity-interview-prep-questions
 

re: dinner -- you are free to use all of your allowance -- over time, not a great decision though considering that you're sitting all day. better just to eat what you'd need to get proper nutrition and stop spending after that -- you'll thank yourself later.

re: chicago schools -- definitely know some very smart people from those schools on the street -- networking is important though.

re: Visa -- I know of foreigners working in NYC but can't answer specific questions b/c I'm a U.S. citizen -- best to speak to HR depts about issues related to this area.

re: distressed / HY -- best advice is to read that book and understand it as much as possible. having spoken to current distressed / hy analysts who entered the buyside after college graduation, knowing that book backwards and forwards will teach you pretty much everything you need to know. if you can have a good sense of how to even think about valuing the liabilities that a company has, how that relates to the assets of the company, and where investment opportunities might arise, I'm sure you'll be ahead of the game. I don't know what they do on a daily basis but I'd assume it's related to analyzing and making recommendations on potential investments -- probably a lot of research involved too. Nevertheless I don't think they'll expect you to be an expert so, just as you would in a banking SA position, go in there, be positive, and try to have some fun. Sounds like a cool opportunity.

re: vacation -- usually analysts get 2 weeks per year. most 1st years don't take off in the 1st calendar year (1st 6 months or so), until christmas. vacations tend to happen in the summer time (half way point). if you're not busy though you can get time to take weekends off which is good.

re: spending -- nyc is expensive. it's possible to not save even if you're working a lot -- all depends on the analyst and your particular spending habits. having to work as much as you do, especially in your first year, can help you save though.

 
oppcostofcapital:
re: dinner -- you are free to use all of your allowance -- over time, not a great decision though considering that you're sitting all day. better just to eat what you'd need to get proper nutrition and stop spending after that -- you'll thank yourself later.

re: chicago schools -- definitely know some very smart people from those schools on the street -- networking is important though.

re: Visa -- I know of foreigners working in NYC but can't answer specific questions b/c I'm a U.S. citizen -- best to speak to HR depts about issues related to this area.

re: distressed / HY -- best advice is to read that book and understand it as much as possible. having spoken to current distressed / hy analysts who entered the buyside after college graduation, knowing that book backwards and forwards will teach you pretty much everything you need to know. if you can have a good sense of how to even think about valuing the liabilities that a company has, how that relates to the assets of the company, and where investment opportunities might arise, I'm sure you'll be ahead of the game. I don't know what they do on a daily basis but I'd assume it's related to analyzing and making recommendations on potential investments -- probably a lot of research involved too. Nevertheless I don't think they'll expect you to be an expert so, just as you would in a banking SA position, go in there, be positive, and try to have some fun. Sounds like a cool opportunity.

re: vacation -- usually analysts get 2 weeks per year. most 1st years don't take off in the 1st calendar year (1st 6 months or so), until christmas. vacations tend to happen in the summer time (half way point). if you're not busy though you can get time to take weekends off which is good.

re: spending -- nyc is expensive. it's possible to not save even if you're working a lot -- all depends on the analyst and your particular spending habits. having to work as much as you do, especially in your first year, can help you save though.

thank you! i cant give u sb... i think it is because i have negative credit :( sorry monkey ~

 

My question is about the SA--FT transition. I'm entering the FT analyst program at the same BB I interned at, albeit in a very different group. What kind of differences in expectations, hours, and work-function can I expect?

Also, how hard are the standard Ibanking licensening tests? Are liberal-arts students without much specific experience at a real disadvantage--is failing the first time a serious possibility?

 

re: SA-FT -- as long as you get through training, which you will -- you'll be fine. You'll find that you're just responsible for a lot more -- its not that the work gets that much more complicated always -- although some modeling stuff can get tricky if you're new to it, but if that's the case, make sure you ask questions, get help, and figure out how to complete the task efficiently ASAP. not sure what group you're entering, but you can probably expect the hours to be similar -- the difference is that instead of doing it for 10 weeks, you're doing it for two years. what happens usually is that things will be really slow for the first stretch of time, depending on how quickly you pick things up, and then slowly it'll start to get better. it's an adjustment process, but being able to respond quickly and effectively to requests of all kinds at all hours is one of the main skills you'll get out of banking -- it's a pretty unique experience.

not all ibd firms have to take the series 79 and 63 -- but from what I have heard from those who have taken it, as long as you study for it and put the work in you should be fine.

 

Thanks again for all this:

  1. What's training like? Did you enjoy it? Is there really as much partying/drinking as people make it seem?
  2. Are you paid during training?
  3. Do you need a credit card to pay for flight/housing as you wait for the firm to reimburse you? Or do they pay for it outright (i.e. give you their credit card info)?
 

re: training

Training is cool -- you get to meet everyone in your analyst class. what you do should be anywhere from nowhere near groundbreaking to somewhat new based on your previous experience in finance. it's the last time you'll be together like that with your whole class -- so while you should definitely make sure you get your stuff done, it's good to go out and socialize with members of your class -- most of whom you won't see that much for a long time. I believe you are paid during training. Don't think you have a credit card during training -- not sure how firms do it -- probably a firm by firm thing.

 

Great thread thanks! If I want to graduate earlier my senior year to save a semester of private school tuition assuming I get a summer analyst position next year and then a full time offer would I be able to start working full time in January? Is there typically training for off cycle analysts who are starting winter instead of summer? (And would that make the analyst stint 2.5,3.5 years vs 2,3 years?) If so, is it common?

Thanks again!

 

@BankorBust -- depends on the bank -- to be decided after you get a full-time offer. I think you'd do training when the rest of your class got there. your stint would also be 2.5/3.5 years -- you'd be more likely to stay as an associate -- but don't have to -- it'll just be more tempting. not too common but I know some people who did that.

 

Hi,

How did you prepare for buyside opportunities and when did you find time to prepare for them?

Also I know that this years PE recruiting was not straightforward because the megafunds did not recruit as before. Do you think it will be similar next year?

 

I go to a nontarget undergrad with a 3.9 GPA entering Sr. year. I'm currently a temp FA at IBM Finance. From your experience from anyone you may know in a similar situation, would I have a chance at either BB or IBD?

Here to learn and hopefully pass on some knowledge as well. SB if I helped.
 

re: prepping -- it's tough. usually you get very efficient after first few months, and then it gets squandered when you have to prep for interviews as well. ultimately you'll be fine.

re: megafund timing -- I have no idea, but if you forced me to guess I'd say they'll be a lot earlier next year.

blueslord -- don't understand your question

that_aston -- don't know anyone specifically but I'm sure its possible with networking and a lot of studying

re: intv questions -- ask something you can't find anywhere else -- their experiences, what they like about the job, what they do for fun -- will help you fig out if its a good cultural fit for you

 

donjuan -- not sure what you're talking about -- generally if you show that you know your stuff, that you really want the job, and you have a good rapport with the interviewers, you'll find something. there's no one thing that will automatically guarantee someone to move forward in a process that I can think of -- and for banking, I'd argue that it's difficult to get an offer anywhere without demonstrating all three of these in the interview unless there are extenuating circumstances.

 

Thanks for your openness. I would appreciate it if you could shed some light on the best actions that should be taken for a student entering freshman year but looking to work on wallstreet, most likely IB. Also, what are your thoughts on a finance major with economics minor opposed to strictly accounting. Thank you for your time.

 

bankingboxer -- first of all, I'd explore the opportunities on your campus, study what you love, and get involved in things that interest you. if you study finance undergrad, it may help you out initially, but I studied virtually no finance in college and have learned pretty much everything I need to know about it in 6 months on the job. taking accounting courses and finance courses is certainly helpful, and can help demonstrate interest in finance, but I wouldn't assume that those will give you strict advantages. as long as you can learn how to walk through a DCF and understand how the 3 financial statements flow together, you could study celtic literature and you'd still be fine -- it's important to do something in college that you'll do well at -- I don't speak for anyone but myself, but I'd be impressed by someone who did fantastically studying what they cared about and what they enjoyed, and also had an understanding of finance and accounting, as opposed to someone who did mediocre studying only finance and accounting. ultimately, it's about the work you put in with respect to studying and how much you actually care about finance that'll differentiate you. there are finance majors and liberal arts majors in all groups that are outstanding analysts, and I'd attribute that more to their dedication to learning, effective communication with others, and quest for efficiency, regardless of what they studied in school.

re: days off -- there are definitely days that you can take off for federal holidays and weekends -- and yes, most people in my group, including me, were able to make it out for Halloween.

 

the theoretical parts of the job can actually be pretty interesting, so if you like it, then usually its the hours that cause people to burn out if they actually burn out -- but if you don't like what you're doing, I'm sure that would accelerate the process of burnout as well. hard to predict what your capacity to withstand the trials of banking are, but can't imagine it'll be easy if you don't enjoy what you're doing at all. there are a lot of other things you could do that might even be a better use of your time in the long run.

 

first of all thanks again for doing this. how would you approach networking for sophomore internships? i just completed freshman year and am doing bb pwm this summer. Next summer i would like an internship with a boutique IB or small hedge fund, etc., a typical sophomore internship. Theres plenty of information here on how to network with alumni and other people you know but what about trying to network with people you dont know at all in NYC (I'm from the midwest and go to school there as well). would it be rude/a waste of time?

And what types of internships did you have before your current job?

 

wouldn't worry about what experiences you get before you apply for banking FT -- getting a jr. summer internship helps but its mostly about do you want it, do you know your stuff, and can you get along with the ppl you're meeting with.

would say that you should definitely try to network with ppl in nyc -- leverage all connections, friends, family, linkedin, and see what comes up -- it's not easy to turn cold-call networking into an offer but I'm sure if you start early enough, figure out which firms interest you, and focus your efforts, you should be able to find something. make sure you know your stuff though! networking will only get you so far -- a lot of great candidates that would be awesome for banking hurt themselves from the start by not reading up, studying the guides, and making sure they know what a dcf is/have a high-level understanding of the main valuation methods/can explain roughly how the 3 financial statements worth together. in general, you will get these questions somewhere in most, if not all banking interview processes, so make sure you know your stuff -- also supports the "I really am interested in working 70-100 hrs a week for 2 years" case.

 

thanks. I will definitely exhaust all connections when networking. but what about if I have no connection to this person at all-not family, not from my school, etc.? is it taboo to try to network with them?

 

its fine to try to connect w/ ppl cold -- just make sure that you know your stuff, you know exactly what you're looking for, and you do it in a way that is clear and forceful but at the same time, not too pushy. you also have to be prepared for a high no response rate, but hopefully if you do it enough, you'll find someone. would advise trying to make connections where you have at least 1 thing in common.

 

How common are IBD associates with a JD at your firm? From what you've seen across other firms, how common are JDs?

Also, please correct me if I am mistaken: JDs are hired as associates (?)

Thanks for taking questions :) much appreciated

Greed is Good.
 

First of all thanks for your time answering these questions. I was wondering on more of a personal note, looking back, what would you do/not do differently to end up where you are now? Also, what is the #1 thing that helped you land the job?

 
Re: megafunds -- after doing banking you'll get a sense of what you want to spend your time doing assuming that that involves staying in finance and moving to the buyside. Some people love deals and process and working with management teams, some people love financial modeling (lbo, m&a, etc), and some people love using public information to assess the value of interests in businesses relative to where they trade. Figuring out which bucket you're in is step 1 (and takes a while). Figuring out where best fits that bucket is step 2. Figuring out what you need to know / do to succeed is that bucket is step 3. I think that working at a megafund would be an amazing opportunity, but relative to other opportunities based on how I view my strengths, I made a personal choice to recruit elsewhere.

Have 2 questions on buyside recruitment:

  1. Heard that HH's begin to contact 1st years as early as 3-4 months in. Even though I'll likely be unsure which area of buyside I'm best suited for / most interested in, would you recommend telling the HH's that I am only interested in 1 type of position (i.e., PE, HF, or VC and not all 3)? Assume this makes you seem more focused and thus, a better candidate maybe?

  2. Would you mind elaborating on what you personally thought made an analyst a better fit for PE vs. HF vs. VC (besides the more obvious characteristics such as liking financial modeling or preferring working with more early stage companies)?

Thanks so much! This thread has been extremely helpful so far.

 

Was wondering if it would hurt me if I didn't network that much within the office as an SA. Lately I've been getting staffed hard and I really haven't found the chance to ask people out for coffee or lunch runs. Also, I'm trying to be positive and say that it's good for my future (and FT chances) that I'm getting staffed relatively harder (by alot in my honest opinion) but what do you think?

 

aquamarine:

re: choosing PE/HF/VC -- I'd say that it's critical, both for HH and for you. The process starts early every year, and the more you think critically about which you'd actually enjoy, and the earlier you can clearly communicate that to your HH, the easier they'll find you jobs you want and the better a shot you'll find a job you want, which is the goal. There are ppl who stay on the fence, but in general, with some exceptions, it makes things a lot tougher. Past experience shows that people who knew what they wanted had a lot easier time finding those opptys.

re: PE vs. HF vs. VC there aren't really intrinsic factors that differentiate analysts who want those -- it's more of a preference thing. If you enjoy process work, getting the deal done, working with management teams, having lots of info from established companies -- then PE is probably your thing. If you enjoy limited information, assessing the strength of business models, taking advantage of arbitrage opportunities, taking in lots of unrelated information and using it to make decisions -- then HF is probably your thing. If you enjoy speaking with talented entrepreneurs and helping them think through how to turn their ideas into real cashflow generating businesses, then VC is probably your thing. All involve financial modeling and thinking about businesses, but what you do on a day-to-day should help differentiate the opportunities for you. I'd recommend checking out the other WSO forums for each of these to get more of a flavor for how ppl who are in those subfields think -- and see what seems like it'd be interesting to you. Would also talk to as many ppl that you can that are entry-level profs in those fields to make sure your concept of what PE/HF/VC is matches what ppl do on a daily basis.

gh15, I wouldn't worry about that. It's only been a few weeks. I'm sure if you're getting staffed hard then people know you're doing a good job. best thing you can do is keep your attitude up and show people that you want to be there. I can also imagine that you are interacting with other analysts plenty in the office, so I wouldn't worry about not getting to interact with them enough outside of the office. If there are people that you really want to get to know on a personal level, you'll have time to grab lunch / coffee at some point this summer. I'd focus on doing a great job as an SA and contributing to group morale. If you can do that well, people will know who you are. the SA program is an oppty for SA's -- first and foremost -- to show that they can potentially handle 2 years of being a FT analyst and hopefully enjoy that experience on some level regardless of how tough it is.

 

In your opinion, how much do ECs matter? I am a sophomore, currently working in a boutique M&A advisory firm. Do I need extracurriculars? I have relevant work experience. I hate the people who run the clubs at my school, they do not know much about investing, investment banking, private equity, etc.

The difference between successful people and others is largely a habit - a controlled habit of doing every task better, faster and more efficiently.
 

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