Bad time to be an international?
Heard that B4 are not hiring international students with one year OPT/no extension any more, which is more than frustrating. To someone who really wanna pursue a career in consulting, it seems not possible anymore.
I am working on my master degree in social science at a top engineering school, and I have interviewed with Deloitte S&O and PwC, both rejected me after first round on campus. I am not sure whether my identity has played a role in these decisions, or maybe I am just not good enough. However, I do think given my background and experience, I am pretty employable (big four strategy consulting internship back in my country and two internship experiences at mid-size public affairs consulting firm in D.C.) But it's just so hard to break in to strategy/management consulting here with a full-time position.
Anyone has the same experience? Or any insider can tell me whether this is true that internationals don't really have a chance given the situation right now.
Canadian here. I called multiple HRs on this (>10). Don't really know what you mean by social science at an engineering school in terms of OPT extensions. If they offered you a first round, that means your status should be alright. They have already taken into consideration your nationality/Visa status during the resume review segment.
But again, if you don't qualify as STEM, that's probably gonna be an issue. Strategy& HR told me that non-STEM isn't very favourable.
The problem of being international (Originally Posted: 07/08/2013)
Hello fellow monkeys. I am new to WSO, and this is my first post. First of all, I'd like to express my appreciation for this website and the resources it provides. Thanks to all of you, you guys are awesome!
The question I want to bring up is pretty simple - how much harder (if at all) is it for an international student to get a full time job in IB right after graduation?
But first, a little bit about myself: I am from Eastern Europe, born and raised, and I came to the US on athletic scholarship, to play tennis at a D1 Midwestern school. I'm majoring in finance, and doing pretty well. I am a rising senior, and last year I got the "best junior in finance" award, which I'm pretty happy about. Right now I'm in NYC, interning as an analyst at a boutique investment bank, and I'm loving it so far. I wasn't really familiar with the whole IB environment until I started working here, since I got the job in a non-traditional way (I met the CEO at an airport by accident), so I didn't really go through a traditional application/interview process. However, I am very serious about IB (as everyone here is).
Besides being from a non-target school, my biggest concern is the fact that I am international. I plan on applying for analyst positions at bulge brackets and a few "elite boutiques" soon, and I just wanted to ask if anyone has any insight about how different the criteria is for international people? Are the chances smaller? I would appreciate any information you guys have that could help me out. Thanks so much!
Thanks for this. I guess that explains my "unfavorable" status.
My opinion, the bigger banks can afford to sponsor you...They make billions in revenue so sponsorship for international students is peanuts for them, considering how much you will make for the company when you work there. My advice is aim for the more recognized IBs as they will have a higher chance of hiring you full time- I'm interning at an IB this summer and hiring was not a tad bit of a problem for them- provided you have all legal documents and all that jazz
BUMP!
I've always wondered if getting sponsored by BB is feasible, in terms of actually getting hired and actually having the gov't say there are reasons for BBs to hire you and sponsor you instead of hiring a US citizen.
great thread, I'm canadian at a target school and on all BB ibanking recruitment applications there is a place to check off whether you are legally allowed to work in the U.S. I've been wondering what to check because international students are legally allowed to work in the U.S. but for full-time the employer needs to sponsor the student. Also wondering about whether recruiters are generally harder on international students also. Thanks for asking Vuk, great question.
They can "afford" to do a lot of things. Doesn't mean it makes economic sense to pay extra to sponsor an international kid when there's literally thousands of equally qualified candidates who don't need to be sponsored to take your place. Not saying that's a good thing but that's reality. They'll only sponsor you if you're truly exceptional and being international definitely is a disadvantage.
Sponsorship really is not a big deal - Banks probably spend more on Seamless annually for individual analysts than they do for work visas. This being said, don't go bringing it up in interviews as MDs, VPs etc tend to not have much info on this (admin related stuff). Once you get an offer, call HR and explain that you're on OPT and would require sponsorship of an H1-B. One tip I would use is to google the firm's name with H1-B example.. google "Moelis H-1B visa". There are a few sites out there with information regarding how many work visas and even green cards Banks have sponsored.
Keep in mind, work visas have been getting extremely competitive as tons of IT firms have been applying to sponsor Internationals outside of the country for errr...cheaper labor...regardless, apply early, keep your mouth shut till you get the offer about sponsorship, and do your due diligence.
Congrats on your internship, and good luck in the recruiting season.
This is a very questionable approach because you are technically lying to them. If they state that you have to be eligible to work in the US, then that means that you ALWAYS have to eligible to work with them. This is at least what I got told by my school's and own lawyers. So I would NOT recommend doing so and be straightforward about it. Does it suck? Of course it does, because you might get dinged just because of that. Just keep your head up. Some opportunity will turn up. And yes, sponsorship is not a big deal. BBs do it all the time.
I am a senior international student from Eastern Europe as well interning at IB boutique and looking for a FT job for next year. I think it's likely to get sponsored by BBs and elite boutiques. Other than that boutiques can't afford to pay $10,000 for our visas.
So BBs are willing to sponsor it seems. Is this true for consulting firms as well?
I'll give you a short answer based on international student alumni and upperclassmen I've talked with and met: All BB's (except Wells Fargo) and elite boutiques hire internationals without a problem (not sure for MM/regular boutiques). However, the ones I met or talked with were all internship SA to FT return offer hires. Take it for what it is.
At least from what I've seen, it seems like the majority of international students that struggle with recruiting are the ones that have a hard time blending in with american culture and can't speak english well. I'm not talking about english in terms of your SAT CR, or TOEFL score - I'm talking about being able to hold a conversation with a new yorker and not sound like a total FOB. Those that blended exceptionally well with "foreign" people (instead of just hanging out in their own ethnic cliques) all had no problems with BB recruiting - the one's that struggled (and mostly failed) were the quiet reserved ones who could get perfect scores in a math test or writing assignment, but would be petrified to hold a conversation with anyone outside of their native tongue.
Also it's common knowledge that a lot of BB recruiting, or any investment banking recruiting for that matter involves a lot of networking. However, international students particularly from Asia usually find it very "taboo" to contact a person senior to them (which is basically any analyst and above working at an I-bank) and just casually ask for an informational session. I know for a fact that if I were to do this in my ethnic country of origin, I would get absolutely shunned and be called out for being rude/disrespectful. There is a reason why there are stories floating around that in China, an MD usually can't just randomly "call up" a CEO to contact him - he has to go through the appropriate channels (of course Caucasian foreigners may be excused for this). I'm guessing this is due to the more conservative culture of Asian countries and the language system - in the US, english is standardized whether you address someone senior or "below" you in hierarchy, whereas in some asian countries, you would have to adjust your entire sentence with more "respectful diction" when talking to seniors (or anyone above your age for that matter) or face serious social consequences.
In short, develop your ability to speak english to the point where you are indistinguishable to other american people, and learn to blend in with people other than those of your ethnicity (Chinese, Korean, Japanese etc), and you will be fine.
No, less consulting firms hire international students (mainly MBBs)
I would say aim for the bulge brackets of Big 4. They have no issue hiring international students and are willing to sponsor.
I was in the same boat as you when I was in college. I didn't event bother with applying to any boutiques and went straight for the BBs and Big 4. Didn't get any BB offers, thankfully, but a ton of my friends who are also international students, got BB offers.
I think applying for H1-B has gotten less difficult though. Prior to 2007, the allotted 50,000 would run out within 2 to 3 days. Heck, demand was so much that it boiled down to a lottery. Now, it takes a month, maybe 2 for applications to run out.
Isn't the limit now 145000 or something like that? It still runs out pretty quickly though. However, if you were hired on OPT and your company filed the application in time, you will get an "extension" and get to work for another year using your extended OPT.
Yeah, just to confirm from what I've heard; it is still a lottery and ran out this year within a few days. Had one friend from Sweden that made it in the lottery and another who didn't because they ran out so quickly (and he was still negotiating the terms of his visa with his company), so was promptly sent back home.
Good luck
Well looks like things have picked back up then.
I graduated in '07 and got an offer right away. By '08, the crap had really hit the fan. Every single person I knew was getting axed from one IB or another. Banks had taken the TARP funds so they couldn't hire ANY international student. It was brutal for those coming out of school then.
Just the thought gives me nightmares till this day.
How's it worked out for you since then?
I am from Eastern Europe and graduated from a non-target in May ’09 so I think my experience would add relevant flavor to what OP is asking. I am going to make this quick and dirty so pardon the lack of detail and how sporadic this response will be.
Short answer to “How much harder it is to be hired as an international” is – it depends. What Fenix-LGM said is absolutely right – graduating after ‘07 as an international was just brutal. BBs did not sponsor due to TARP funds and I actually was sponsored by a boutique, which as previous posters have alluded to is highly unlikely. I kind of had to run the H-1B process myself and I know that applications run companies north of $3k (possibly into the 10s of thousands depending on the lawyers the company uses). I disagree that it is a complete lottery when quota is filled, after all legal is liable for the money they were paid to run the application process if the international did not get her visa, so there must be some way more money gets you a better application. In ’09-’10 the situation was so bad that it did not matter much who you hired to run the process - if I remember correctly the 85k quota was not filled for 8 months after April 1st , which is the first day you are allowed to apply for visas for next year. Compare this to this year’s quota which was filled in few days (per streetwannabe) and you’ll understand how hard it was to get someone to even look at your resume if you are international. Now, I would imagine - as long as during the recruitment process you managed to go through HR’s international sift and stood out from a citizen during interviews – you should not have a problem getting sponsored by BBs. However, this year there were something like 125k applications, which means a third of the internationals were rejected – in that sense I guess I was “lucky” to apply in 2010 Maybe someone with a more current experience would be willing to answer the question here. Feel free to PM me if you’d like to learn more.
P.S. I would also like to address what other posters have said: Kinghongkong: While it’s true that there is legislation that is supposed to bump up the quota to 145k, I looked up the current numbers for 2013 and it seems that the cap is still 85k. As far as I know this legislation is still in the works and a lot of details are in flux. By the way, net shaker, some people are pushing for percentage caps on how many international employees a company can have, which will hit Indian …err… I mean IT firms pretty hard If someone can speak to this, I would be interested to hear if there are any international people in PwC outside of accounting, because I was left with the impression that they do not hire many.
I would think you'd be able to work something out with the bank along the lines of makes $10k less salary and we'll sponsor you.
This is against the law as I believe H1B provision specifically prohibits "reimbursement" of legal expenses of this kind.
To the OP and others like him, since Obama is going to legalize all undocumented democrats already in the country anyway, you guys might as well just burn all your travel documents and pretend to have crossed the border illegally then you will all have full work authorization to work for whomever you want without ever having to worry about sponsorships again when the new Amnesty bill is passed (I am joking, or may be not).
Hooked on LEAPS - there are specific salary thresholds that internationals need to be making in order to get sponsored, so yeah as brandon st randy said - they need to like you enough to think you're worth the $10k. However, only small company managers really worry themselves with such minutae. In BBs everything is streamlined and people who have hiring power don't really know /care about extra visa costs. These additional costs, however, can give employers some leverage - once you sponsor someone you pretty much have them by the balls, because for internationals to move to another company = going through the whole visa process again and if they are let go they have to go back to wherever they came from within a few months
Like many people previously said, if they like you they will hire you as $10k or application fee is nothing to them. However, if you they do give you trouble due to some sort of internal budgeting, tell them to deduct it from your signing bonus. If all that fails, offer to pay for it yourself - nothing wrong with that either.
Unfortunately, it's illegal for the applicant to pay for the visa costs themselves, at least with the H-1B. Not sure if you could have them deduct it from your signing bonus, that's some what of a gray area as the money hasn't technically been paid to you at that point.
As with anything of this nature, OP would be better served speaking with a qualified immigration attorney on the various scenarios rather than trusting the opinions of a finance board.
My thoughts are, if a worker is desired enough by the firm, then they'll pay the costs (the training costs alone at a bank are more per analyst than the cost of a visa app). That being said, given it's such a competitive industry, my guess is that you'd have to be exceptional for them to justify the extra cost, considering all the qualified, permanent residents/citizens that apply each year who are already able to work.
Many banks simply don't accept internationals when they have to sponsor them as a matter of policy. Sure, they love diversity, but seem to prefer those who already have citizenship. You just have to find the right firm, that's all.
Look for firms that currently hire internationals. Sometimes it's not the cost, but the hassle (legal and compliance) that deter firms from hiring internationals. Once they've gone through the process, they usually realize it isn't that difficult. Plus, the application fees involved are peanuts for most financial institutions.
Hi there -
First acknowledgement, I am a lot older than you (early 30's) and I am also from Europe.
Started my career in NYC in 07 after a M.Sc in Finance (target in Europe - unknown almost in the U.S.).
"My" reality: - 90% of the people I knew that were in similar situation got canned when the crisis happened. Foreigners were in the first boat... - IMO banks are now less and less willing to sponsor for Visa since they have a boat load of good candidates from MBA / U.S. schools that either have a one year Visa or citizenship. - I have been EXTREMELY persistent in my quest to land a job in IBD - simply put, no one from my promotion at school got an offer in a U.S./ Global IB in NYC. I ended up in reputable Mid-Market Investment Bank, in their biggest Coverage group. The market was bad and IMO when things are bad, people do not take any risk and you are competing against a legion of local "Ivy Leaguers".
On the job: - Cultural difference is a reality. After 5 years in NYC I am now able to comfortably communicate efficiently with both my team and third parties - I know... it's a long process...
My advice: - Apply as much as you can but please do not EVER send these "copy and paste" emails. Instead, demonstrate what you can bring to the team, whether it is a language capability/ sector knowledge/ demonstrated achievements/ a deal/ your network... - When you land an interview you have to be really outstanding when it comes to technical questions - get the WSO guide and learn it by heart - I did it and I also learned other guides. Remember that it is one area that you need to be excellent at. Honestly, nobody care if you are misspelling some words at the beginning but you NEED to know your stuff cold. - Try your luck at "under the radar" international banks / European banks / boutiques with a footprint in Europe. - Last thing: read WSO, keep yourself updated, know what is happening, mingle, network and stay motivated because it is NOT easy.
I actually enjoyed looking for a job. Although these times were tough, when I look back at it, I smile remembering the crazy stuff I have done to find a gig. I even managed to use the logins of my roommate's girlfriend (with her permission) to crash a Goldman Sachs recruiting event at Columbia - haha... It didn't work but it gave me confidence and I figured, talking to all the Associates and Analysts present at the event that they were no more different than me and that most of them also came from other countries.
Do not see the fact that you come from another country as solely a disadvantage. This whole country has been built by foreigners like us so use this as an advantage so aim high, hang tight and good luck to all the foreigners out there!
Great story
Turnaround- great story! Thanks for sharing. Yeah after the Crisis happened and banks were laying off people, ALL the international students I knew were the first to go. No exceptions. Those of us in consulting/ Big 4 lasted through it, thankfully.
I would get at least 3 calls every week of my friends telling me they had been laid off. It was just a horrible time.
Where did you work? Did you study in the US for undergrad/grad?
Yep, I did my undergrad in the US. Took advantage of OCR and got my offer at a Big 4 corporate tax group.
winningI'm in the same boat here. The only way of getting hired as an international is standing out. Prove you are better than anybody else and make them love you. All firms will hire you if you are exceptionally qualified regardless of sponsorship. Plus, bank profits and markets are at record levels, we are not in 2007 anymore.
Good point.
Everybody should also consider what happened in 2007. The crisis hit and who got laid off first? The international workforce. You guys might want to consider working somewhere else than the US (such as UK, HK,...)
If you are from Europe and your country is in the EU, then the UK would be fine. If you are not, then its much harder. The problem with the UK is that companies have to hire based on this order:
British citizens > EEA nationals > Rest o' ya'll :)
I was under the impression that as long as the job applicant is from an EU country whose citizens don't need a work permit for the UK, companies don't have to give preferential treatment to British citizens. They can hire you right away, without any need for visa or authorization from the government. Is that correct?
That is correct.
British citizens > EEA nationals > Rest o' ya'll :) is bs
Well whatever the case, the UK is in worse shape than the US, employment-wise.
Are you talking about the whole economy or a specific sector?
Sorry, should have been more specific. ;)
I am speaking from the financial services industry perspective. Here is what I noticed about the UK. Someone can correct me if I am wrong:
For consultancy/ Big 4, hiring appears strong, especially for audit and transactions and restructuring groups. All those bankruptcies and companies going into administration are helping business. :)
For IB, hiring is very slow and extremely competitive, particularly for front office roles. BO hiring seems to be stronger, especially for technology-support roles.
Even looking at the economy of the UK as a whole, it is not a pretty sight. Hiring seems to be stronger in the south (England). Up north, especially when you head into Scotland, it is brutal.
But this is all from my perspective.
JP Morgan's earnings are up 31% for the second quarter with the IB arm alone reporting 2.8B, which is significantly higher than last year (although they did cut jobs to do it). Things are really looking good for the financial sector thanks to the Feds extended bond buying and improving commercial credit conditions. So stay positive.
I would pretty much agree with that, especially the South/North divide!
If they weren't willing to hire you they wouldn't have bothered interviewing you.
Yeah, but as I said, if they are comparing me to other candidates with no concern of identity/Visa issues, that's basically how internationals got 'unfavorable' in the hiring process, especially when someone like me does not have OPT extension.
I think what I meant was more that your status stops mattering when they offer you a first round. Your Visa issue matters during the resume review process, but not after.
So the "unfavourable" part would only be an issue during online apps/resume review. You should get equal chances first round forward.
Strategy consulting is very competitive, your Visa status (as stated here by others) is not the only factor. When we (=boutique fintech & strategy) hire within strategy focused teams we typically get more than 20-25 capable applicants for 1 position. These are folks with actual work experience on high-profile mandates.
Did you ask for feedback and how you might improve for future applications? They usually won't say anything but it won't hurt to ask in a nice way.
edit: With a US degree you could also aim at Canadian employers or locations. A job offer gives you the required points for a PR. Might not be ideal but better than leaving North America.
I think Visa might matter more in the final round? As in when they compare you and another almost identical US candidate, they'd probably go for a safer bet. I'm in the UK, my b4 which used to be the best in terms of hiring internationals has stopped accepting international students all together. Times are tough for internationals this year with Trump and Brexit.
I agree here. Visa matters when giving you an interview and when making a decision whether to take you vs. another American candidate. Probably doesn't matter in first round when you're being interviewed by more Junior people who are just submitted a grade based on your performance.
Visa always matters as well as your nationality etc... Intentionally or unintentionally, most hiring managers will favour local applicant who supposed be a "better cultural fit" how the call it. Most of the people here hold US passports and have no idea which hurdles internationals have to pass in reality. Good luck in the process!
True, most domestic students cannot understand the situation we internationals are faced with right now. Maybe another degree in Computer Science would help....ha
Say what?
Masters in Economics at MIT? (the #1 Graduate Economics program in the country tied with Harvard)
.......
There are more than enough qualified applicants stateside. Hiring international students is just an advertising ploy :).
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