Summer Offer: P72 vs. D. E. Shaw
Hey Moneys – trying to make a decision between P72 summer academy vs. DESCO fundamental research (L/S equities) summer internship - Would love any insight!!
Here is some homework I did, figured I should just share these with you guys, hopefully they can be useful for anyone in similar situations – feel free to correct or add anything :)
- $$$: base - DESCO 180K vs. P72 135K; DESCO has housing/relocation allowance vs. P72 none; bonus – unsure
- Training: P72 has the most established training set-up, 75% of summer and 1st year FT will be classroom + 25% rotation; DESCO you start at a desk right away (not much proper training)
- Strategy: P72 time horizon is shorter - typical MM; DESCO is slightly more longer-term oriented and mandate can be quite flexible
- Career Flexibility: saw P72 exited to Lone Pine, not sure about DESCO; Brett C said MM exiting to SM has been improving
- Return offer: P72 84% last year vs. DESCO pretty low (unconfirmed – mostly based on few comments on WSO – seems around 20%)
Overall, I as a UG am not sure about my true preference of investing style without trying them first – so I care about SM exits/career flexibility here; on the other hand, I am a big fan of $$$, BIG TIME trust me; so now I am kinda running into a dead end now, any advice would be welcome!
descooooo for sure
Could you elaborate please?
dm me
Desco 180 BASE?
It is on JD, 15K per month
Interning at P72 this summer, had DE shaw offer too but turned it down. Both are obviously great names but P72's training platform is umatched by any other hedge fund.
First year/training comp isn't something you should consider as a factor either given the ebbs and flows of comp in this industry.
The return rate at DESCO is something I'd be a bit iffy about and I'd probably take DESCO over P72 if i was deathly allergic to the standard MM investing strat or deeply obsessed w DESCO's mandate.
Not going to say which you should take, I'm obviously biased to P72 since i took that offer last year, but this is just some stuff to consider.
thx! definitely makes sense - with more competitiveness brought by unmatched training, comp can probably catch up pretty quickly after academy graduation
If it was for a job, DE Shaw > P72 easily. But the intern conversion rate at DE Shaw is just so low, you’re better off at P72 in expectation.
Thanks!
Could you share some data points on intern conversion rate at DESCO?
And also, other than pay, what aspects would also make DESCO a better job in your opinion?
20% for DESCO. You can look at some recent threads and they'll confirm this number. they overhire a ton for their internship (many teams at DE shaw will take on an intern without having an opening for FT). Will confirm that P72 return offer rate was 85% last summer and >90% of academy graduates get placed on a pod. Also, if its helpful, P72 academy all in is 135k base + 25k signing + 80% bonus for full time. Should get you to >250k easily. Unsure what DE all in comp is.
Any idea if they have plans to not over-hire as much or improve return rates?
For discretionary L/S, Point72 >>> DE Shaw. For quant, DE Shaw >>> Point72. I'm assuming this is for DE Shaw's fundamental group, not their bread and butter quant strategy. Source: chose P72 over another top HF. Something to consider is the P72 academy network. Something to be said about being around 25 other students deeply interested jn hedge funds your network. Can be very helpful if they end up running hedge funds of their own or becoming PMs. Also, the P72 curriculum is more versatile and future proof. You'll learn about every sector + Quantamental approach so you pick up coding, handling alternative data, etc which could come in handy as markets evolve. DE Shaw's L/S equities group is purely fundamental.
that's a great angle indeed - thanks for the thought!
no problem. question, were you in the diverse processes for these firms? surprised that they're already giving offers this early. i have a sophomore friend applying to both and would appreciate more color on the timelines.
tbf i don't know how deep the quantamental really goes but it doesn't seem like much to me, its just kinda manipulating alternative data in excel, they stopped teaching R and don't teach python. Feel like most smart people can figure that out with a little time
Source: I've interned at P72
did you end up receiving a return offer?
Update: just had a chat with internal guys
they are being super vague about FT conversion (no specific quota at all) and mentioned being highly selective on return offers - I think this basically confirms overhire+low return; no training (only one week on-boarding/quick accounting/modeling stuff on your first week); over the summer you may be placed into one specific team or receives multiple projects from different teams
Also, confirms frequent interactions between different strategy groups (sort of synergies), the company is more than willing to allocate more money to one small book just for good ideas; overall I think DE Shaw may be the most "interesting" MM to work at if you are experienced professionals, but definitely not the same case for interns
That sounds like a terrible internship. I wouldnt take DE Shaw even if they offered 500k pro rated.
Interned at one of these places and worked at the other. Both fantastic places to be, so congrats. As mentioned, P72 has probably the best training of any MM shop. Desco has pretty standard 1-2 week training and then puts you on the desk. In my experience, the intern offer rate was higher than 20% at Desco; 20% was more like the rate at which interns returned for FT. I attribute this in part to the fact that many Desco discretionary interns aren’t traditional “finance” folks, and just don’t do a terribly good job during the internship or decide they’d rather go back to academia etc. Not saying it’s easy to get a FT offer at Desco, but when I was there competent interns who put in effort did fine in general. It is a fair bit easier to get a return offer at P72. Obviously different styles of structure and investing, but I’m not sure how much that plays into the internship. I’m assuming that P72 has a bit better of a classic “internship experience” with all the activities etc though. Good luck, both very strong programs!
Thanks! Super helpful :)
second this. A fair fraction of my de shaw cohort were hard science/engineering majors and some just didn't find finance interesting or just didn't "get it" if that makes sense. I know some of them ended up going on to Phd's. Fwiw I think that contributes to the culture (which I liked), but know that P72 has a lot more of the traditional finance types if that's your cup of tea.
Hi man, can you dm me pls? Going through process and would appreciate help. Thanks.
if u need help ur not cut out for it
I think worth thinking LT post internship here since others have already talked about the internships, but tactically worth noting that can move to the other FT if you got a return from either internship.
Some FT pros/cons:
DE Shaw - more stability, more upfront pay ( i think + 50k-80k within first year),
but no training, less say on where you get placed
P72 - will train you without PnL in first year (hence lower pay), will let you try out for PMs and styles (more variation that DE shaw), can have very fast career progression
but less LT career stability unless you work for a star (far and few between), culture is prob sweatier and more traditional "finance bro" since heart is L/S equity vs DE Shaw's quant background
unless you have specific stats on the churn rate at DE Shaw, Id venture to say career stability as an academy analyst is equal if not better at Point72.
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