Any front office African Americans in IB?
This is a direct question and please don't respond if you have no valid input. I've read a lot of posts regarding the average talents required to be in IB (Is IB a waste of talent etc.) and I can't figure out why, if average talent is all that's required, there's not more diversity (particularly when it comes to African Americans) in front office IB - analysts, associates, directors? I'm asking specifically about A-As so please also don't respond about other minorities. And let's keep it clean folks. Thx.
I've been reading up on the subject recently, so thought I'd chime in:
As of late, representation of African-Americans (and Hispanics) in IB remains at about 1-2%. These percentages are probably a reflection of the pool of talented, qualified blacks in higher education, which is fairly miniscule. Because there isn't much talent that recruiters at banks can pull from they struggle to improve minority numbers. Just think about it; the odds of finding talented black youth, at prestigious, selective target schools, that choose and excel at Econ/Finance/Math/etc. and are interested and familiar with the investment banking recruiting process are slim to none. And, if you consider the fact that Wall Street has always been an "Old Boy's Club" that has for a while now been lead and run by wealthy, white males, it would seem that perhaps there are "barriers to entry", may them be social, economic, or political. At the very least if there are blacks in Wall Street there usually 1st or 2nd generation Africans and/or typically don't reach the higher rungs of the high finance ladder because they choose to venture other options.
Also, the nature of IB is also to blame, it isn't exactly as desirable as some would believe. Sure the exit opps and salary are fabulous, but not many blacks find the trade off of time and leisure that appealing.
One last note: I think you're confused about the topic of "IB being a waste of talent" and I'm assuming you're referring to the thread a few days back. It's not that "average talent is all that's required" or that blacks can't seem to match up with what is required (cause we certainly can), it's that those who excel in IB probably could put there skills to better use; like idk curing cancer or something, instead of slaving away at their desk till odd hours every day/night. But as usual, money is the number #1 motivator, and people will flock to it.
Long Story Short: There isn't much African American talent to go around.
Hope this Help
OP is a douche, and I have no idea where BlackCole is getting her statistics.
Affirmative action allows the majority of the elite schools to have a calculated level of diversity (although not in the sense of equal amount of talent) of each race, and programs like SEO will place a couple kids into each of the bulges every year (1-2% implies 1-2 people per incoming BB class). Just a bunch of made up shit.
sigh I swear every thread inquiring about diversity "hires" and programs ends up this way: with a lot of bitter monkeys (on both sides), a question that has yet to be resolved, and a whole lot of monkey shit.
Just to substantiate my claim and shed some light on AAs in Wall Street here are a few articles for your (and anyone's) viewing pleasure--these statistical figures have also been surfacing WSO for a while now and claim that AAs make up about 1-2% (give or take) of BB recruiting classes:
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/wall-street-elusive-dream-black-america… ("Wall Street an elusive dream for black Americans")
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100993918 ("Blacks still find Wall Street foreign territory")
http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2013/09/a_guide_to_a_successful… ("A Guide to a Successful Career on Wall Street for African Americans")
http://www.blackenterprise.com/small-business/african-americans-on-wall… ("African Americans On Wall Street: The Next Generation")
Hope this Helps
I'll admit percentages may be a bit closer to 3-5% but I can't be certain; even I find it hard to believe that numbers are that low. The 1-2% is what has been circulating the internet for a few years now due to the BofA discrimination law suit. However, although diversity recruiting has increased minority numbers for Hispanics, Asians, and Native Americans, numbers for African Americans have actually declined in the last decade according to some sources.
Make no mistake, diversity recruiting does nothing for asians. Asian women are helped, but that's irrelevant since women of every race are helped.
Well...yes. But I'd argue that diversity recruiting has already done enough to raise the presence of Asian-Americans. It all comes down to supply and demand. Now that competition for Asians has drastically increased in the last decade, there really isn't much need for recruiting for them because there isn't a shortage of qualified Asian men and women.
Yeah...I think American history would kindly like to disagree with you. Asian Americans certainly over-represent themselves when it comes to high finance when compared to their overall population percentages in the U.S. And this is a culmination of the success in diversity recruiting in past decades as well as increased access to resources used to move up in the socioeconomic ladder in America. So what if diversity recruiting is less prominent for Asians now? That's only a reflection that diversity recruiting has done it's job. Asian Americans who have benefited from diversity recruiting in the past can now aid in increasing the educational wealth and economic prosperity of their entire race in the long run.
I covered this previously but I'll humor you.
I already acknowledged the fact that Asians may not have benefited from government assistance, but ironically I don't really think Asians were ever in that much need of any. There number in high finance over-represent their numbers population wise because of cultural customs that most bring to the West, like valuing education. I'm not arguing that, I agree. AA and other government assistance programs were never even targeted at Asians (but I wanted to make a case that perhaps earlier on they may have reaped the benefits) so I'm not sure why my being wrong about Asians not benefiting from diversity hires is even relevant.
However, with the very few AAs that make it to prestigious colleges, grad school and occupations, I think it's unfair to view them with the lens that you view AAs as a whole. Odds are if they've made it, there more likely than not qualified. Banks, or any established institution, don't have any true reason to hires those of any race who are under-qualified and that includes to bring about "diversity".
I never even said AAs are at a disadvantage at banks because of the lack of diversity hiring. I said that there's a shortage of talented, qualified AAs. The reason for that AAs as a whole are lagging behind has much to do with hundreds of years of slavery, institutional racism and limited resources. It's because of these past wounds that diversity hiring/AA was enacted.The things you've mentioned are only by products of what I've mentioned. You could honestly make the same argument that some Asians/Native Americans/Hispanics suffer from self limiting beliefs, their environment, and a lack of people of other positive people they can look up to but these groups have increased in representation over the year. Why? Because these groups don't have as an extensive racial history like AAs do. It's the history, not solely the culture.
You asked why there isn't more diversity on the street given that only 'average talent' is required. Here are my thoughts.
One: you have to have a complete package to get hired. Elements of a complete package: connections, grades, prior experience, relevant knowledge (interview prep), education (brand-name schools preferred). Those elements may change in proportion to each other between candidates, but they're all in the mix. Black students typically underperform relative to their white (and Asian) peers in each/every one of those categories.
a: Black students are less likely to come from the privileged background or the social circle that would grant them the family or friendship connections that make 'networking' less of an earnest, brutal hustle to get a foot in the door and more of a "Hi Uncle Jack's golfing buddy, remember me? I'd like a job."
b: They're also less likely to perform well in school. Google and numerous sociological studies will show you statistics, data, and anecdotal quotes that outline a myriad of reasons that point to the same fact: black kids don't do as well in school as peers of other races.
c: They're also less likely to have internships or extracurriculars, and this may be a function of the two things I previously mentioned. If you don't know someone who can help you get an internship, you're less likely to take one. If you don't have someone who will tell you how important it is to get one in the first place, you're less likely to seek one out. If you don't have good grades, you're less likely to get a competitive internship in the first place, even if you are motivated or aware enough to apply.
d: If you come from a chronically under-resourced community, you are less likely to know how to find out what the right things to study for your aspirational career are. On top of that, you're less likely to master them as well as your peers (circling back to the comment on academic performance and grades).
e: Students from under-resourced communities enjoy less educational equity, meaning they are less likely to have access to the same quality of instruction, the same level of safety and stability in their years of primary and secondary education, and the same variety and quality of extracurricular opportunities as their peers from other races.
As a result, they perform more poorly in primary school, leading to limited secondary school options (no merit entrance to elite private or magnet public schools), leading to poorer results in the college application process (whether by rejection from elite schools applied to or a self-selection to apply exclusively to less elite schools).
Summary: Black kids are less likely to have as 'strong' a profile (based on this formula) as kids from better-resourced backgrounds will.
You can argue until you're blue in the face whether this is a function of: an innate limit on the intelligence of the African race, a poorer work ethic among African-Americans descended from slaves who now don't know how to work hard because they're used to being driven by a slavemaster, a result of an institutionalized and systemic format of oppression over the course of history that has placed blacks in a particularly bad way in America, or any other viewpoint. None of that is the point of this reply.
Two: black communities don't think of finance as a remarkably special or prestigious career. For whatever reason, you'll see a lot of smart black kids going to good schools (i.e. the very kids who would most likely be best-positioned to succeed in the banking recruiting process) focusing on law school or med school so they can be a doctor, lawyer, or enter public service.
A lot of the most successful, historically admired, and prominent black figures in our nation's history were lawyers, civil rights activists, politicians, or doctors. The black community puts a lot of prestige on those fields, so naturally, all the smart kids who pursued the academic route rather than the athletic one tend to gravitate in those directions. As a result, some of the candidates who would in all honesty do pretty well in recruiting don't even try their hand at it.
Summary: This self-selection will automatically reduce the number of black kids you see in finance. Fewer kids trying means fewer kids succeeding and breaking in.
Three: diversity programs often wind up attracting and/or serving the wrong kids. There's an entire host of programs like Prep for Prep, MLT, SEO, Inroads, MBA Jumpstart, etc. that strive to 'change the face of the corporate landscape' by funneling more minorities into the elite banks' and consulting firms' recruiting processes. Unfortunately, far too frequently, these programs do one or both of the following:
a: Accepting, training, and propelling the success of minorities who already enjoy privilege. A huge portion of MLT/SEO/Inroads classes each year are black kids from the Ivies and other top-25/35/whatever schools. Kids like that already have an idea of what's going on, so the programs don't really advance the success of minorities as a whole when they are taking the people who are already informed and prepared for the recruiting process and trying to inform and prepare them for the recruiting process.
If you take 100 kids (numbers made up) who were already planning and studying to apply, you haven't increased the number or (arguably) the quality of the minority applicant pool. On the other hand, were you to go out and take 100 kids who weren't necessary planning or prepared to apply, guided and prepared them to apply, and supported them in their application, you just doubled the number of prepared applicants and thus dramatically increased the number of candidates that may successfully make their way into the industry.
b: Failing to properly train the people they accept. Some of the candidates coming out of these programs really don't know what on earth is going on. They got through the screening process by writing decent essays about their interest in finance, successfully got through the screening interviews without letting on how much of a mouth-breathing retard they are, got into the program, got placed at an investment bank, and failed to get the full-time offer because of how much of a clown they were.
I know someone from a state school who got into one of these programs, got GS IBD for his summer, and failed to return. He was lucky to wind up at another BB for full-time. I know another who got into a scholarship program at one of the most prominent BBs. He literally got cash towards his next school year, that's how competitive this program was. He also failed to return, and as far as I know, he isn't in the industry at all.
I'm not one to say those persons didn't deserve to be in their respective programs, but it's clear they didn't make use of the resources and advantages they were offered (whatever they may have been), and ultimately they harmed both the organization's reputation and the perception of minorities in the industry as a whole through their individual failure and inadequacy.
Summary: diversity programs don't always do the best job of screening for qualified applicants or screening for applicants that actually need the help, resources, and advantages the program offers. As a result, the legitimacy of these programs is hampered, and the reputation of minorities in the industry suffers (as made manifest by the general attitude of so many people posting in this thread [and countless others] already).
Four: innate human behavior works against minorities in a number of ways when it comes to hiring. Resonance is key. People hire who they like, who looks like themselves, who reminds them of something they are comfortable and familiar with. For most minorities, this means that the person in a position to hire them is biologically wired to not want to hire them. It's an unspoken but powerful influence.
A white guy from North Jersey who attended Yale before getting his MBA at Wharton is not going to see much of himself in a black kid in a subpar suit who grew up in Detroit, got a merit scholarship to UMich, is carrying a 3.4 at Ross, and isn't in a fraternity, no matter how on point that kid's line or how crisp his waves may be. On the other hand, the kid from another county in North Jersey who caddied at that guy's country club as a teenager and now attends Wharton undergrad has all kinds of thing in common with the banker: shared locale, social stratum, fellow Whartonite, mutual common acquaintances, etc. The MBA doesn't know why, but he just feels more strongly convinced the second guy can do the job better than the first, even if their GPA is the same. It's science; we're drawn to those similar to ourselves.
Side note: Now, note that earlier I switched from speaking exclusively about black students and began speaking about students from under-resourced communities. Not every student from an unprivileged background is black. There are Hispanic, Asian, and white students suffering from educational inequity as well. They aren't helped by affirmative action or diversity recruiting initiatives. If anything, they're penalized for their ethnicity. While the black kid (rich or poor, underprivileged or privileged) skates into a good school or good job on the laurels of affirmative action, the kid who grew up next door (be it in a rich neighborhood with manicured lawns or a violent neighborhood of dilapidated rowhomes) gets no leg up because he isn't an under-represented minority.
Comments unrelated to your original question: You shouldn't be so preoccupied with wondering why things are the way they are and simply focus on what lies ahead of you.
a: Worry less about what others think. Be humble, be hardworking, and win people over. That means that in your networking and interviews, you need to prove you are likable and capable. It's that simple. Someone who successfully and convincingly portrays that will get hired: white, black, yellow, brown, purple, or orange.
b: Prepare yourself. Study hard, be informed and knowledgeable, and crush interviews. Focus less on preemptively pointing fingers elsewhere and make sure you do everything within your control to make sure you maximize any opportunity put in front of you.
c: Be smart. This may sound contradictory, but once you get in (if you do), be aware of the things that will affect you. It sucks, but make sure you're smiling, pleasant, cheerful, and articulate. Someone may be biased against you without even really knowing it. It can truly be culturally ingrained into them, no matter how loudly they claim they aren't bigoted or judgmental. Make sure you are aware of the way perceptions can harm you as a black woman, and work actively to prevent anything from blowing up on you.
In closing: You can do anything you set your mind to. I did. I broke into one of the leading banks in the industry, earlier than most, and succeeded better than most ... even though I didn't look like anyone else there. This isn't to blow my own horn, this is simply to indicate what's possible if you're a worker. Be a worker. Put your head down and work. Be smart, but just work.