Are non-target students doomed in IB?
Being honest, it feels like the IB recruiting process is designed to shut out anyone who didn't go to an ivy or a Stern/Darden, etc. I've connected with so many sharp candidates from solid state schools and international programs with serious internships who all go ignored, while someone with a 3.2 GPA at a target gets plenty of interviews.
Is the industry missing out on great talent because we're obsessed with pedigree over performance? Or is the reality just that prestige matters more than actual ability?
Would love to hear from bankers who didn't come from a target (currently my position), how did you break through?
"Are non-target students doomed in IB?"
No. When you look at IB as a class, this is categorically not the case. It is not as easy as coming from Penn/Harvard/etc, that's for sure. You have to put in substantially more work if you don't go to a target school.
There are literally hundreds of kids every year that show there is a viable path... if you are willing to put in the work.
In general I would tend to agree, I guess just going through recruiting in such a difficult market as a non-target who is constantly networking and prepared for interviews is demoralizing.
My question is what does "putting in the work" mean after a certain point? 3-5 coffee chats a week for months, linkedin messages and cold emails (15-20 daily), knowing my behaviorals and technicals front and back, targeting lower MM and boutique banks that may have less structured processes/feeder schools, but then what? There just seems to be a certain element of luck in play for non-targets, is there anything else I could be doing to increase my chances?
What were your GPA/SAT scores? What did you do to stand out in undergrad?
A year of coffee chats is not going to make up for 8 years of average performance in high school and undergrad.
I think this is the biggest issues with non-targets. On average the kids at non-targets are uninspiring, lacks work ethics, and just generally not ambitious. As a result it is hard to gauge whether you are in a good spot or not if these guys are your frame of reference.
Non targets are not doomed but certainly it’s a much harder path. As context I came from hella non target and in addition didn’t even know what m&a was until my senior year as virtually no one made it from my school.
I did absolute miserable back office work for a year then transitioned to fp&a where I was a top perfomer and got involved with corp dev work, mostly integration but little legit work.
I used what little I had and highlighted to the max without lying. After many submissions I landed a large Portco Corp Dev Manager role which I enjoy a lot. All this to say ealier is better but it’s not over if you don’t make it right away. You might have to take a stepping stone role and somehow leverage that into a better opportunity each time. Good luck man.
Thank you for sharing, honestly seems like corp dev from FP&A is a pretty decent path to it all. I'll keep your story in mind and do my best to explore some options that would be good stepping stones to ending up in banking.
What a load of b/s. No target student with a 3.2 is getting an interview barring something exceptional going for them.
For context, I went to a total non-target and had an average GPA and am now on one of the top IB groups out there.
For any of the resume piles, even from target schools, anything below 3.5 or maybe even 3.7 depending on the back / group just gets filtered out automatically.
You don't have great experience. If you did, you wouldn't be having this conversation.
The kid from MS with a return offer who wants to switch from M&A to coverage has great experience. Can promise you they are getting a superday even if they went to Baruch and had a 3.5.
The kid who has a partner at Warburg call and vouch for them and say they would love to keep them full time but they really want to do banking has great experience. They will get an interview in a heartbeat.
If you were at PE over the summer, why aren't the seniors from the group making calls to their bankers on your behalf?
If you have stellar credentials (780+ GMAT, 3.8+ GPA, good extra curriculars) but are late to the game, get a few years of great work experience you're essentially a lock for at least one of Wharton/Booth/Columbia for your MBA. From there, it's a very easy jump to banking.
facts. OP just bitching. Went to a non target, at a top EB.
Would be nice for OP / others to elaborate on how you landed into a top IB group from a non-target with an average GPA.
Presuming lateral processes by moving upstream.
Got the best job I could at the time, which was an accounting / controller type role. Moved to FP&A, then corporate development then banking.
I worked hard and excelled at each role and along the way impressed the right people, some of whom helped me to the next step.
It wasn’t quick but starting 4 or 5 years later is sort of irrelevant over a long career.
Almost every Fortune 500 works with bankers in some capacity. If you have a reputation of always having the answers to questions, people will notice. For me that meant knowing the company’s financials and model inside and out, the analyst with answers to every diligence question and the analyst the CFO needed on every call to answer questions they couldn’t.
For what it’s worth, my goal was never banking. I wanted to be a CFO. It took a handful of MDs to convince me that banking was the best path for me. In some ways, that may have helped me. My peers with one foot out the door who were always trying to network with bankers never had the same internal credibility which was what enabled me to move so easily.
No. Next question
I’m at a bank where there’s more state school bankers than T-15 school bankers. A reputable MM bank. I myself went to a state school and a T-30 for a technical masters, it’s 100% doable. I didn’t target GS TMT in NYC, I went for MM banks where I knew I could actually break in, it’s about being smart with your time and energy, not just throwing shit at the wall and hoping it sticks
I used to split my focus and target all banks (BB/EB/MM alike) but as I've continued to network I realize that people at MM banks are much more open to speaking to me and discussing recruitment as well. I agree that its doable, just need to land a few interviews and prove it to myself.
I’m in a group that is a direct feeder to lateral internally in the bank. About ~60% of my class with lateral, and end up in a top group at my bank. People sometimes need to realize it doesn’t matter how quick you do it, you just need to make it happen and be realistic
To be completely honest, most of the non-target kids that make it to top shops are really kids that got into targets but chose a local non-target for full rides. Very few true non-targets (ppl that dicked around in HS) and these guys, even though they can game the recruiting game enough to get SA they usually don’t get the return offer as they get exposed quickly.
100% agree, I went to a state school to not be in debt. Had people break in occasionally but these individuals were very intelligent.
Well yes, that’s kind of the point. It’s not not the undergrad name holding most non-targets back. It’s the inability or choice not to commit to years of hard work to get there or the average performance.
To be honest, if I graduated from a non target, I wouldn’t pursue competitive finance careers. As others have said, anything is possible and there are non target folks in banking and rarely PE, but they are ime hyper opportunistic and aggressive business undergrad type people in my experience, very politically minded. They have much less optionality and staying power in the industry, and those are the two factors that really impact your quality of life in finance. In my personal experience which is small n, they also have sharp elbows and are awful to work with.
While I realize it is difficult, it is something that I have committed myself to doing and am on the edge of achieving, so I don't see giving up as an option (but of course having a back up is sensible). I do think it is an uphill battle and I don't really care about sunk cost right now, but it can be done. I definitely don't want to be awful to work with or have sharp elbows, but I do understand their need to be hyper aggressive and opportunistic to break in and stay in.
Non-target here now VP3 who got into top 10 bank as intern / analyst then went A2A before joining BB as senior associate. Relate to your comment about how if I was never super aggressive in undergrad / politically minded would have never landed the role. I was an animal with recruiting, always on the phone / doing unpaid internships. Looking back I was kind of absurd lol but I loved the chase. Definitely were smarter kids than me in my undergrad. Wouldn’t say I’m not pleasant to work with now!! I’m not sharp elbowed :)
Edit: But I didn’t get in by not having all the basics - 3.8+ GPA, multiple IB internships, leadership roles, etc. There’s no way around being qualified on paper as prerequisite.
non target kids should cut their teeth at a more risky path to have a chance at sending their kids to Ivy's and IB
High GPA is critical. Really the only thing you can do to stand out. Also, look at joining off cycle if need be.
Might be anecdotal, but I came from an extreme non-target but ended up at an EB. Also, all my friends who put in the effort into networking / recruiting got into EBs/BBs/MM. Definitely luck involved but not impossible if you prep, network and pass the vibe check.
I'll chime in here as a non target who hasn't gotten an internship yet and probably won't by the time I graduate(Yikes!)
A commenter above said that kids are non targets lack work ethics/unambitious. I think it's more of a lack of awareness. The non target school I go to has never sent somone to IB or any front office roles out of undergrad. The one finance club is an absolute joke and the reality is more kids here are interested in becoming accountants and CPA's then they are IB analysts. IB isn't pushed on us and I found out about IB on my own.
The reality is for non targets and every other student at a target is that the game has started increasingly earlier and ealier. I mean back in the day you could graduate with one internship during UG and find a job in a couple of months. Now it's starts day one of college with the clubs and freshman internships and all of that stuff. Hell soon firms will be be advertising to juniors in highschool about IB and they can't even vote yet.
Do I think Non-Targets are screwed? No, hopefully not. But let me tell you, if I was a freshman at my non target, no way I would stay for more than a semester. The cards are stacked against you from the start so you better do everything in your power to shift at least some of that to your side.
Edit: For everyone who made it in from a non target, congrats, but the reality is there are more applicants than there are seats at the table. We wouldn't be having a discussion on target school rankings and non-targets if every school placed well. The distinction wouldn't exist. Sometimes academic high performers at non-targets just can't break in from undergrad. It's a damn a shame but it's all in the game.I like to read success stories as much as the next guy, but don’t get it twisted. It has been, and will alaways be one of the most competitive industries to get into. There’s a difference in thinking you’re an exceptional candidate and actually being one. Sometimes the grind doesn’t pay off and sometimes you really are just fucked.
Well, if they're so smart, why are they not at a good school? All solid candidates get scholarships for undergrad. And even without scholarship, the debt is worth it.
It's much easier to have a high GPA and seem smart when you're attending a weak school and everybody around you is weak. Grading is based on how the rest of your class is doing. And even the way the material is taught depends on the class. Professors at MIT will just breeze through material and assume that everybody understands everything cause everybody is extremely smart and they all come from top schools where they probably already learned basics of what's being taught. And then the exams are super difficult.
At a weak school, the professor will be explaining things to you like to a 5 year old, cause they know that you won't understand anything otherwise. And then the exam will have the questions that are asking exactly what was told. And then you'll be graded based on how the rest of the class did. So of course 3.2 at MIT beats 4.0 at your local no-name school.
As mentioned above a lot of students go to schools to remain debt free. I personally went to school to be an engineer, this school was T-40 for such but business school was T-125. Still went to a non-target, got a technical masters and then broke in. It’s definitely do-able, but an uphill battle compared to those who knew out of high school that they wanted this. I believe most people end up in a bad situation due to the lack of knowledge
Non target AVP here. When I say non target I mean top 300 school.
Find the niche, start from non-ib, gain exp in that niche, move to ib.
Problem solved
There are always outliers, for instance many students with disabilities attend state universities because of gaps in education and poor finances. Same could be said for things like military service or career switchers in graduate school too. Unfortunately the idea everything works out in the end can and does fail regularly but when it works it's often impressive in it's own way.
del
Unfortunately I have to agree haha, thankfully I'm not an international.
Holy cope bro , I’ve had tons of friends make it from my semi / non target school. Nobody with a 3.2 gpa is getting an interview unless their daddy is Jamie Dimon, get some good work experience and lock in
I'm locked in it'll be fine
First step if you cant place out of school is to find something adjacent then lateral after 1-2 years. Longer timeline but there's always a way in for those who are willing to grind it out
Yes sir, it'll work out.
Nobody cares, work harder
Many of my best analysts have been state school kids, several from complete non-targets.
In my experience, the top kids from large state schools = top kids from targets, but the avg candidate will be way better from the targets.
For this reason, my bank (a top BB) hires plenty of state school / non-targets, but we are fortunate enough to get the cream of the crop from those schools.
That's great to hear, especially from an MD. I'm ramping up my networking efforts and hopefully will get to speak with some VPs/Directors/MDs with similar perspectives.
Banks don’t worship pedigree as much as they run a bandwidth model. They pick a few schools, embed alumni, and try to know every top candidate there. At my target, most outreach stayed inside the alumni loop until superday. It’s not “fair,” but it’s how they manage risk when people are the main differentiator.
Non-target isn’t doomed. It’s just a different game:
What have you been doing to chase this so far?
Quaerat asperiores ut dolorem est. Mollitia aut quia aut et. Alias velit ut voluptatem ipsum cumque recusandae inventore.
Fugiat quia vel quas reprehenderit omnis est. Ea et provident in qui aliquam nulla assumenda. Voluptatibus deleniti corporis ut non. Aut non nobis laborum aut accusantium.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Ut maiores quia sit quia. Illo soluta ut sunt voluptas ea eum ut assumenda. Consequatur officiis ratione omnis officia vero magnam excepturi. Soluta id qui et ipsam inventore dolore vero. Incidunt maiores id quia incidunt accusantium dignissimos dolor id. Id expedita exercitationem officia debitis a eos.
Voluptatibus officia quisquam nostrum. Dolore quisquam reprehenderit inventore illum dolores totam. Delectus sed enim non omnis occaecati molestiae accusamus. Porro accusamus mollitia esse et. Quis dolorem ut facere assumenda dolore velit. Dolorem dolorem ducimus rerum vel qui quia. Voluptate officiis qui vel ea voluptatem quod.