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Career Resources
you may just not be the right fit for IB.
"its not you, its me" -IB
What do you mean by applying for 'several years'? The last 2 years have been really brutal and there are plenty of great candidates who didn't get through. But if you've been applying for like 5 years, then... maybe IB just isn't for you.
That said, headcount at BBs in London this year is a lot higher (presume you're applying to London given UK uni), and your chances will be better this season. What do you have to lose from sending in a bunch of applications?
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Oh Charles...
You have been applying for 5 years? Most bachelor's degrees are 3 years or 4 years tops if you had a placement. You are omitting some information on purpose and it might be the key to the whole thing.
Well, you certainly have my sympathy since I was about to take some time off for personal reasons too, but I think this might be one of the reasons you are not having any luck. Most banks are probably uncomfortable hiring someone who took 5 years to graduate from a 3 year programme for whatever reasons, especially if this time is unaccounted for in your applications. Edit: I just had a look at your post history and this whole thread started to make sense, including the monkey s**t you are getting. I don't know what you are expecting to hear here, they told you why you are getting rejected, and here I'm actually quoting what you said was your feedback in another thread: "Feedback: you had medical issues and therefore took a year off and even though you will secure a 2:1 minimum we have people who secure firsts and dont take time off uni". And after that you actually took another year off...
Life happened and I made the best out of a bad situation. Its unfortunate I don't have the 'cookie cutter' background other students do but that doesnt mean I'm useless. I still managed to secure a place at a leading tech firm. Furthermore, I know a guy who had a year off on personal reasons and landed an internship in IBD at JPM on his year off.
The feedback from from a single person and shouldn't reflect the entire Street's attitudes. This is from a firm where I passed the first telephone interview and the analyst didn't even bring up the graduation issues.
I didn't technically take another year off. I still completed some exams which count towards my degree after requesting to the Dean personally, so that my year wouldn't go to waste. They do not usually even allow you but given the circumstances they allowed me.
Either way we can go on and on, but the real question is 'what now?'
Don't give up.
I feel for your situation and it is a highly competitive field but you seem persistent and determined.
Have you applied to boutiques and MM ?
And
Whats your end game? Being a MD of an investment bank? Opening up your own business? Being a portfolio manager at an AM/HF? Being a partner of a private equity firm?
Nobody can help if your not willing to give out more info. I haven't read your recent threads though.
ok never getting an ac is weird.
I have the following explanations: a) you didn't apply to enough places / only applied to gs/ms. If you applied to rbs/macquarie/jefferies/other random crap firm and didn't get an ac then its time to move part b or c b) you are really really bad at the online tests c) you think you are at a target but you are not (possible if you are at nottingham i suppose?) d) your cv is just too funky, applying to IBD for multiple years? How many years are studying for ? Are you 35 and still haven't finished undergrad?
a) Nope I always apply to RBS/RBC/Macquarie etc (infact I do these first) and really random no-name firms too. In total every year I send over at least 100-150 applications - I think one year it hit 200. b) Yup. But my friends get a rejection within a few days/1 week if they failed the tests. I've never had that problem. I just keep waiting and waiting and waiting for months and then Im rejected (sometimes I wait up to a year). At this point I know the answers like the back of my hand lol. Loads of the firms I applied to just ask for your CV (no test) so that doesn't explain them... c) Im at LSE. d) Im 23. Studying for 4 years (never failed/retaken any exams) with a 1 year personal reason gap year. That doesn't explain previous rejections when I did have the 'cookie cutter' background ie before the gap. I'm not sure what you mean by CV too 'funky' but content wise it's not massively different to what Ive seen others do to get in. Leadership/EC positions, relevant work experience, brand name experience, entrepreneurial experience, uni/quant degree with finance modules and so on. One year I did dilute the CV down considerably and sent it out to about 40 firms just to see if that was the reason. I still didn't hear from any of them.
I'm at a loss here, this sounds like incredibly bad luck...
Already tried to network?
Indeed. Everyone falls under one of the following categories:
I don't know how networking works in the UK, but if people in the industry are "randomly" confused as to why you didn't even land a first round interview, they just don't give a shit about you (speaking from experience), which means you didn't network as well as you had originally thought.
Let's check your CV..
There is a plethora of highly qualified students from all over Europe and the UK that attend a target, are on track for a 2:1, are native speakers of German/French/Italian/Spanish and fluent in English, do have no gaps on their CV, and have several well known names on their CV (Big4 M&A or TAS, BB or Elite Boutique internships in Frankfurt/Paris/Milan/Madrid) when they apply for positions in London.
Recruiting in London is ridiculously hard unless you tick every box and even then there's no guarantee to get a spot.
Is it possible for you to join some of the rather unknown investment banks you interned with?
However, it's still kind of strange that you score absolutely no interviews with your background..
2nd European language isn't a 'must' I don't think as I have seen tonnes of people who are native English speakers land analyst roles in the UK teams for example.
Gap on CV - if you saw my CV you wouldn't see a gap as it just saying 'expected graduation date July 2014' so they would only notice a gap if they saw my online application (where there is a box to give reasons). So this only applies to banks which have online applications. A lot of places I apply to just ask for a CV/CL so theres no real 'problem' there. Either way every summer I have done 'something' so its not like there is something massively wrong. I'm not saying 'why do I not land interviews at GS every year'.... I'm saying 'why do I not even land interviews at the no-name/MM/elite boutiques'?
Brand name relevant internship - yes (wasn't 'banking' but I built financial models, drafted presentations etc all similar to IBD).
The first IB I worked at only hires experienced hires - my experience was more just for an 'insight' vs getting a job there. I was told once I had BB training I'm more then welcome to come back.
The second IB I worked at was abroad and most of the team left so I have no connections left there.
The tech firm I was at this summer said I could return next summer but I would be bored in this team and I should go for something more challenging like banking/consulting/HF (my manager was a former GS IBD guy). I know several people who interned at my tech firm and who moved directly into FT roles at GS/MS/JPM for IBD... most had no finance experience at all, most couldn't speak anything other than English... I don't see why I'm an exception!?
did you ask your boss, the former GS IBD guys for referrals/any insights on why no one will interview you?
When they just jump directly to show me your cv , you do have a problem. It shows you can't have an interesting conversation. What I should advice you to do is reading the networking guide, interview prep guide, technical guide and following the financial news for the upcoming month, Besides that, following some specific deals in detail, follow some stocks in detail. Make sure you have something interesting to talk about. Moreover, make sure you have someting interesting to talk about besides finance. A trip you made, a sport you play, an uncommon hobby, etc. Do some research in advance and look for what the persons you are gonna speak with is interested in.
Develop yourself, make yourself more interesting.
It would be definitely helpful if you would upload your resume (or send it to via pm).
You sound like you are terrible at networking. It is about creating a connection, not getting handed an interview. Judging your behaviour on this site, I suspect I'm pretty spot-on.
Which part? Its definitely much less common than in the US. I''d say its overrated vs impression you would get from very US centric WSO/mergers & inquisitions/other finance resources.
Depends on your background of course, if you come from a non target then yeah you need to network. I still would have serious reservations about hiring non-targets in Europe (and especially in the UK), in US there's much more a case to be made for it. There's also a case to be made for networking if you want to join a fund right away that might not have a formal recruitment process, but for cookie cutter BB M&A its not necessary if you are at a target
I don't know a single person in finance that got their first role through networking fwiw... There's more of a network element when moving to the buyside if you go to pe/distressed but this isnt so much networking (as in sending messages to random ppl) as just having worked with the fund and then moving over
The only thing I can think of is they hire mostly continental Europeans. That leaves a few spots for British people which are usually taken by Oxbridge kids. So basically before I even apply my fate is sealed....? (as there's not much I can do about being British)
Not true. There are plenty of LSE people (British) in BBs, along with Brits from far "worse" schools.
again with the excuses. its not them, its fucking YOU, not the banks, the color of your skin, your accent, etc.
There could also be a bit of bias against UK nationals.
Just think about it, you could hire a UK guy who speaks only english or you could hire a UK educated European who speaks fluent english and atleast on european language fluently.
If you hire an only english speaker in the UK you might as well hire an american cause he will work atleast 2x as hard as any european.
that said there's always lazard/rothschild as english only firms.
This is all total shit. There are plenty of british, English speaking people in BB IB.
CP - I have been through this thread and I have a couple of ideas for you. Idea 1: Study for the CFA 1. I know M&I advises against it but I know quite a few people who are 'British' but CFA 1 qualified and landed offers at BBs for IBD. I'm not sure how much value it will add given you already study finance modules but the CFA is recognised so take a look at it. Either way it will probably be quite easy for you if you study finance already :) Idea 2: Reach out to the people who worked at your tech firm who moved into IBD (I know some have as I did a quick search on LinkedIn). They may have some good advice for you as to how to move over and may even help you. Edit: CP also I agree with some of the stuff the other WSO members said on here. Lower the emotion. I'm sure your application is fine and I know its frustrating not landing any interviews (I'm in a similar position) but this is life and you have to keep hustling. Good luck and feel free to PM me if you need anything.
CFA won't help.
^ he'll PM you countless times, dont worry
What's with the IB or bust mentality? Diversify man. Look elsewhere. There's so much to do in the world. You can't only be interested in banking. If this isn't working out, pick another path. At the end of the day, it's just a job.
kid's the next brady, except hardons for ib rather than hbs
I think there is this mentality in the UK because there are not many other paths really. I'm also struggling - IB and Consulting seem to be the only jobs for grads that set you up for other jobs you may like (PE, HF, F500 company etc). I have rarely seen students get into PE/HF's etc directly out of undergrad here. I guess in the USA its different?
Exactly the same in the US, if not even more "cookie cutter" defined path. Stop making excuses.
25 monkey shits, good heavens...
Still doesn't beat Ratinamaze. Dude got like 200 monkey shits in one topic. lol
Are you just applying within the UK? There was a story from M&I about a guy applying to smaller markets, why not start there?
Nope I apply to the USA, Asia, Europe and the UK. Dinged from Europe because I don't speak an EU language (except English). Dinged from the USA/Asia because of VISA issues. I applied to Australia esp for ER twice just to see what would happen - dinged because of VISA issues again (they only take students who are eligible to work in that country). I do apply to smaller firms - always. When I follow up they tend to say they look for experienced people and I should apply to the bigger banks so I can get training/a graduate programme.
I have to agree with Whiskey here. In this post alone you make 4 excuses. In half your other posts it seems like you are just looking for someone to feel bad for you.
You would be surprised at the caliber of students at a BB operations recruiting dinner. Almost everyone was from a target (All Ivies represented) for a satellite branch of the BB, and this was operations.
:( Ye I'm screwed...
Seriously...this is pathetic. No one here cares about this or wants to hear it.
There have been over 70 replies to this thread. If you've tried everything that people have told you to try and still haven't broken in, maybe it is time to let this go and aim for something else. Maybe go on the defensive and just try to not graduate without a job. How hard is it to break into corporate banking? look into not for profits? hell look into government roles or something where your degree might be useful?
So your advice is... quit? ...without knowing what I'm doing wrong or making an effort of fixing whatever I'm doing wrong?
Edit: I am looking for other roles outside of finance/banking which I can apply to in the meantime.
You suck so much.
How much more advice could you possibly need? You have a response (excuse) for every piece of advice given to you. No one is going to hand you a job on a golden platter.
My final advice: fucking quit.
I understand your pain. I'm from LSE too and I don't get many IB interviews either (not european citizen). But I got tons of interviews from top PE/HF/AM. It'd be weird coming from LSE with your degree to not receive any interview. Maybe the truth is just you do not get picked. And you CV is not that good either honestly (I AM NOT TRING TO BE HARSH). There are too many kids from LSE with 1000 times better than yours. No one knows why, and you may have some typo in you CV/cover letter etc. Banks have scoring system for CVs, yours might just not good enough.
Back in the 90s people always said, you better be lucky than smart. There might just be no reason.
Thank-you Xaipe for the honest reply and do not worry I am not offended. You are right - there are 1 million reasons for rejections and a lot of people have stronger CV's. I think I need to cast a wider net, network and keep trying hard :)
I would also like to apologise for my general attitude towards everyone on this thread and other threads especially those who were just trying to help and I took it the wrong way. I appreciate the help and will be more positive/try harder/think of solutions instead of dwelling on the problem from now on.
Definitely network hard - I have a friend from a non-traditional background who did this to get ahead.
If you're convinced you won't get it then you won't - it's a simple as that. The neediness, desperation and defeatism will absolutely come through in the tone of your CV and application. And you will continue to make excuses for every single reason why things are going against you.
Your CV is ok, pretty standard, but nothing really stands out. This could be an issue. But this can be overcome. I came from a non-target in a different country, had 0 internship experience, speak only English, took 5 years to finish my degree...and broke in. But my attitude was literally the exact opposite of yours. Look at your thread title: "Time to Quit?".
When I was applying that thought would never have occurred to me. I was fully convinced that I was going to get a job and was going to do whatever it took to get one. I would've done a masters if necessary, cold called every bank on the street every day, whatever. This is what it takes, and you don't have it right now. Either get it or do what you were looking for justification to do in the first place and quit. With this kind of attitude you will get destroyed in IB anyway...
Thank you for all of your replies above.
I'm not sure if you saw my recent post - but I agree with you - time to change my attitude towards this. I have started to network more and am getting replies which is nice. :)
I'm wondering if you can expand on a few of your comments. - my 'CV is ok, pretty standard, nothing really stands out, but this can be overcome'. How can this be overcome please? What do you recommend? - can you tell me what you did to break in? esp the networking side of things.
Would you be able to mentor me a bit and help me get on the right path - any help is greatly appreciated!
I mean the CV isn't the be all / end all. The important thing is the attitude and that will flow through to the CV and the applications.
I applied to 60 or so banks and spent all of my time, literally all of my time, doing applications, studying for interviews, networking, etc. I was 100% obsessed and consumed by it. This is the attitude you need to have.
First step is to read this book:
http://www.Amazon.co.uk/Think-Grow-Rich-Original-Classic/dp/1906465592/ref=pd_sim_b_3
A lot of people don't like it or think it's a bit hokey. It is. But if you can really internalise the lessons in here and view the world through the lens of this model then it will really help.
Also...why do people care so much about having "monkey shit" thrown at them? What does this even mean?
Oh not this again.......
I can relate to a degree with you. I attended the same school doing masters and before that did undergrad at another target European school. I had internship experience and achieved a lot in terms of extra-curriculars, scholarships and had other work experience. Out of 15 banks I applied to, 50% rejected me without even the first round interviews. I was really pissed because I know how hard I worked, and how much I accomplished to get to where I'm at...but I learned to accept it. Some may disagree, but my opinion of the whole IB recruitment is that it's a very 'random' process. Sure, there are some things you must satisfy to be considered, but there is big pool of people who are 'eligible'. After that, anything can play a role - networking, language, skills. I think you've got good advice here, and I think you should also learn not to take the rejection too personally, and not let it discourage you. If you really want it, put all your energy and effort into it and it'll happen.
[double post]
i don't understand how you are having this much trouble.... i'm at a target like you with a low GPA and a mediocre resume (i don't think people understand that weaker candidates at targets get shafted just as hard as non-targets). i hustled my way in and got all my interviews through networking, and i'm going to a top boutique for FT.
does your personality just suck (not saying yours does; i don't know you)? i found that being a nice person and showing people i'm determined and constantly working to improve myself made people want to help me.
kid is needy, can't problem solve and its very transparent, even through PMs he sends me.
sounds like a kid who's been bugging me.
@"Charles-perry" I don't know if this is true (nor do I actually really care), but, if it is, you better fix it fast. there's already way too many analysts/interns that only know how to follow directions mindlessly. being able to think for yourself will set you apart from the pack so much.
Just had to highlight this because not a lot of us consider it.
Change the attitude and be positive. Something will turn up if you keep hustling.
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