So, apparently I haven't been on this site in while, and it'd be a shame to make a return to just complain, but I've emptied the beers from the minibar and it's still way too early to sleep, my body now evading anything approaching a circadian rhythm. Instead of sleeping, thought I'd throw in some comments on the industry, then as I started writing, I realised I only wanted to talk about one thing: F*&King Analysts:
1) Make sure you do what you've asked for:
As an associate, I spend my days in a bind between the MDs that want stuff done, and the analysts that either don't want to, or can't do it. My particular favourite is when analysts come and tell me they want more exposure to oil and gas deals, and ask me to get them into some books/deal. This is great, I love oil and gas, so I want everyone to love it too. However, what I didn't realise, is that said analyst has gone to every other team and begged for work too. Resulting in the poor bastard being too overstaffed to manage any of the work they owe me. This is infuriating and I will do everything I can with my limited remaining capacity to ruin your next review if you do this. Net effect, if you find someone who isn't burnt-out and cynical enough to help you out, then do the fucking work you've asked for, or they will hurt you worse than the people that don't care.
2) Only working hard for the scary people:
I try to be a pretty laid back kind of guy, I'm generally polite, and since I moved to a Bulge Bracket from a boutique, I've pretty much given up hazing. That said, I find that when the analysts, or even junior associates, have conflicting priorities, they opt to work for the person they are more afraid of, and my stuff gets dumped; resulting in me spending another all-nighter cranking on shit books. The net effect of this, is that I'm starting to reconsider my approach. Should I just be a massive prick to everyone in range of my wrath? Will that get things done as the analysts and interns flee for their very lives before my dreadful red pen? Probably not, I keep waiting for the juniors to figure this shit out, the asshole is always going to be an asshole, and that probably means during review as well. Whereas I... was going to be nice during review, now my only reply to the staffer is that you didn't manage your priorities.
3) Why don't you do it:
I've had two analysts and an an intern actually say this to me. Full context: I'm teaching the analyst to build a oil and gas model for a specific southern equatorial country's fiscal regime, and I've shown them how to model a section, they go away for two hours, come back with something that is wrong, and argue that it's right. At this time, I'm considering the fact that I spent 30 minutes showing them, and two hours waiting, for them to do something I can do in about 10 minutes. After I show them what is wrong, and why it's wrong, I encourage them to explain verbally what they need to do to fix it. To which they say "This is really a waste of time, why don't you just build the model, and then we can both go home earlier tonight" (oh also, it's midnight on Friday, and they've missed a date, so they're being huffy). My immediate response was, "a) I don't need to learn how to do this, I can already do it, and b) if I do it, what do we need you for". The next words I write are going to sound exceptionally self aggrandising, but if I'm in the office teaching you to model at midnight on a Friday, be fucking thankful, there are plenty of associates willing to throw you under the bus and go home at 10 or 11 while you wallow in analyst hell all night.
4) Saying "Yeah Yeah, I get it":
I've taken to stopping any analyst that cuts me off with a "yeah yeah, I get it", and ask them to explain back in their own words what they need to do, and sometimes I make them write it down too. Because 90% of the time when they explain it back, it's obvious they don't fucking get it, AND, 50% of the time, if they don't write it down, they won't remember to do it. See the story in number 3), and as annoying as it is when you analysts do something wrong, it's terrifying when something just doesn't get done. One of my analysts said that their homework was done and I could come in Monday, quick review and we show it to the Director. Instead, I spent 14 hours on Monday, well 6 hours fixing shit that was wrong, and 8 hours doing stuff that she apologised for just forgetting about.
5) Not reading the book:
It's amazing the number of times that I can read a paragraph that an analyst has processed comments on, and realise that while they processed the comments, they clearly didn't read the page. Sentences that don't make sense, double double words where they only deleted the words crossed out by the MD, and the MD clearly missed one. My personal favourite a paragraph that included a sentence [Change the sentence to include something about the company's YoY change relative to industry], square brackets and all. If you just read it, tried to understand it, and asked the question, 'does it make sense' you can move into the top 1/3rd of your class, it's just simple shit.
6) Not getting it:
The cherry on this proverbial shit sundae, is when the little bastard that either didn't have time for your book, or screwed up your model comes back and asks you either 'to go for coffee to discuss their performance', or to send a review to the staffers. It's like they worked on a completely different process that I did, and brings me back to the idea that I need to shout and scream more. If you can't tell that you've done shit work without me shouting it, there's a whole level of your development missing, and that's going to prevent you from making it out of the analyst pits.
While I might sound like a bit of a prick, I've been identified in my team as 'excellent in development of junior talent', which from my bank's point of view is a critical skill. Unlike some of the associates that just crush the analysts, I, for whatever masochistic tendencies I have, am trying to help the bastards that would rather check their tinder then be better bankers. We'll see what the peanut gallery has to say about my complaints, if I keep travelling like this, maybe I'll empty out another mini-bar and tell some stories, or lessons about how to politic effectively, without your peers thinking you're a cnut.
Mod Note (Andy) - Throwback Thursday - this was originally posted April 2015
Made me laugh. My recommendation: don't just stop at the mini-bar's beer, hit the nips too...
LOL, reminds me of a first year associate who would go tomato red and freak out at his desk when his analyst is unavailable.
Haha. I love reading all the comments on this site from analysts stating that the associates above them don't know shit. Refreshing change of pace here.
Keep in mind that your VP probably has similar frustrations about all of his associates (including you), although admittedly about different things. And his MD has frustrations about his VPs and on and on. Cycle of life.
... and the Group Head about his MDs and the Division Head about his Group Heads and the Firm President about his Division Heads and the Board about the President and the Shareholders about the Board and the Analysts about the Shareholders because "why do I have to do ANOTHER f#@king SHAREHOLDER ANALYSIS!!!
Of all the times to teach an analyst, what possibly possessed you to do it at 10pm on a Friday? Shouldn't you at least be pretending to want a life outside the office, if nothing else but to blend in with the rest of the crowd?
Model was due Monday AM, between that and the outputs, probably 40 hours of work. Split with a decent analyst, not a horrible weekend load. I don't like coming in early on the weekend, so if I stayed late on Friday, the analyst would be able to get their part done on their own schedule, I could do the slides on my time, and we'd both avoid a complete write off of the weekend. Other option is I tell the analyst they have to come in early and all day Saturday.
I assume the associate in question (who I agree with by and large) is in Asia where after a long night in LKF or Sanlitun or Roppongi, he's unloading his entirely reasonable rants on what is as anyone with anyone perspective have to admit is a unuiquely mediocre analyst group (with rare exception, including several on my team). One of the key traits of a good banker is to type a coherent email after a long night of drink and the OP appears to have to done it well.
On a different note, the title of this post made me think that I would be reading about something entirely different starting with "So it was late and I was alone in the office when newly recruited Joanna walked over to my desk......" This place throws a few surprises.
This was actually quite upsetting to read. As someone trying to break in, it's frustrating to hear that those that made it in are behaving like that. It is especially disappointing how ungrateful they are when you are trying to train them. They are fortunate enough to be able to do real work and have someone to train them, but they don't take it seriously.
What really grinds my gears is that those same guys will probably be able to find another role because they have that bullet on their resume. In any case, good for you OP for investing your time/energy in your analysts.
The hardest part is breaking in. The reality is, when we get a resume book with 250 candidates and have to pick 50 to call, we have to use something quantifiable to quickly draw the call/no-call line (usually school and GPA). There's no doubt in my mind that we've let quality candidates go just because they didn't go to an Ivy League school or have above a 3.5 GPA, and we've hired people with those stats who ended up being busts. Ideally, I'd take a hungry non-target over an entitled Ivy leaguer any day of the week, but we don't have the time or resources to hunt for the diamond in the rough in the resume book.
You've got to get folks on the line separately and get them to see why you should be in the interview room along with everyone else. Keep plugging away.
This guy is the worst. It's probably the case that the experienced analysts try not to work with this clown so he gets stuck with the scrubbiest 1st-yrs, only making him grow more frustrated / cynical and further reducing the willingness of solid analysts to work with him. I've seen this scenario play out multiple times in my BB..
I'm only a 2nd year Analyst with far less work experience than you.
My 2 Cents: In the minority here, but as you admit yourself, you sound like a f@cking prick that no Analyst wants to work for. Sure, if I worked for you, I'd learn a ton and will make a tremendous employee down the road, whether in finance or elsewhere. Sure, maybe you have crappy analysts, but doesn't mean you act like you are above them all and talk down on them with the shit attitude you have towards them. I could be wrong but I'm assuming you're a post-MBA associate. Excuse me for my poor grammar/spelling below as I'm writing back quickly.
1) Yeah this is the Analysts' fault, but maybe you should try to teach these guys that the attitude and enthusiasm is great but they need to tone it down. You, rather, want to ruin their lives/bonuses/promotion efforts by shitting them in their reviews. Is this what a good Associate does? You keep writing shitty reviews about your colleagues, even Analysts, and you won't go far in this business.
2) You keep claiming you are this nice chill guy who hustled in from a boutique to a bulge bracket. Maybe you need to step back and think about where you came from and who you are now - because it seems to me you've turned into a complete asshole in the time you've been at this bulge bracket and feel to need to act like the classic dickbag 'Banker' that you think you need to be. Maybe you need to stop complaining that your stuff gets "dumped"; learn to delegate properly and manage expectations with your Analyst. If push comes to shove, be the 'scary' person once in awhile. But stop claiming you're polite, given up on hazing, "[was going to be] nice" and then come here to shit on your Analysts.
3) You really think since you're the Associate, have more work experience, and maybe that shiny $200k MBA that you're always right and the Analyst is always wrong? Instead of wasting time arguing why you're right and he's wrong (same goes for him too), why don't you get another person's POV?
4) 5) 6) Perhaps you had the right to be angry here, but with Analysts constantly not being kept in the loop about the big picture and WTF is going on on these deals, it's hard to not just be a processor sometimes. Maybe you already do, but take the time to debrief them WTF is going on - cc them, invite them into conference calls, give them verbal updates, thank them for their hard work, etc.
I don't post often but felt like I had to say something, anything, back on behalf of the Analysts. Cheers
This has been an interesting to read through the comments. I should have been clear, I've never yelled at any juniors, and I take time to show them what they've done wrong and how to fix it, I did mention, though it got missed by some commenters, that I've been singled out in my team as an excellent development resource for the analysts. So i get saddled with scrubs because they need development rather than because no one will work with me.
My approach when people really fuck up is more along the line of "I'm not mad, I'm disappointed, you're better than this", 'cause I know that if I shout, they're never going to want to work for me again. However, if they are good analysts, being told they disappointed me will make them work twice as hard next time. That said, the kids that don't care, don't get effected by the dissapointment talk.
Wow. Came back to visit this thread and found a ton of butthurt analysts.....probably the type that OP is complaining about.
The French are the worst.
Half a dozen years of university, 4-5 internships, but mostly insufferable.
In the UK, it's true, people do often enter finance without the academic background of students from Europe. Within 12 months, the difference is minimal. You learn your trade on the job.
During those times that I'm in the airport waiting room or on the train with our bankers, I pray that they've got more interesting chat than just the deal or M&A.
Good bankers regardless of position are well-rounded and knowledgeable about more than their finance textbooks...
Flip slide:
1) Kid is enthusiastic, finds himself with downtime and pings emails to 3 or 4 people asking for work. 3 people reply with requests..shit luck but kid learns and if he sat there for more than 6 hours with nothing to do he would be screamed at.
2) Dude your an associate,,,,,if analyst also has a VP shouting for stuff from them VP is gonna win. Nothing to do with being a prick!
3) It's midnight on a Friday night and you are trying to prove a point on principal. Just get shit done and get out ASAP. Shit like this makes banking unbearable for people. Midnight on a Friday is not the time to be learning new shit (but agree analyst should not say that)
4) 90% of the time educated hard working grads don't get what your saying? Maybe you are not great at explaining things?
5) Agree that is annoying but when someone is reviewing a doc at 3am in the morning after getting a combined 6 hours of sleep over the last three days I think you have to have realistic expectations.
6) Missing level of development? They are 1 -2 years out of college, they barely have any development yet. I'm assuming if a guy is asking for feedback 1. he gives a shit and 2. they don't know where they are going wrong. Why not give them the benefit and help them out.