So, apparently I haven't been on this site in while, and it'd be a shame to make a return to just complain, but I've emptied the beers from the minibar and it's still way too early to sleep, my body now evading anything approaching a circadian rhythm. Instead of sleeping, thought I'd throw in some comments on the industry, then as I started writing, I realised I only wanted to talk about one thing: F*&King Analysts:
1) Make sure you do what you've asked for:
As an associate, I spend my days in a bind between the MDs that want stuff done, and the analysts that either don't want to, or can't do it. My particular favourite is when analysts come and tell me they want more exposure to oil and gas deals, and ask me to get them into some books/deal. This is great, I love oil and gas, so I want everyone to love it too. However, what I didn't realise, is that said analyst has gone to every other team and begged for work too. Resulting in the poor bastard being too overstaffed to manage any of the work they owe me. This is infuriating and I will do everything I can with my limited remaining capacity to ruin your next review if you do this. Net effect, if you find someone who isn't burnt-out and cynical enough to help you out, then do the fucking work you've asked for, or they will hurt you worse than the people that don't care.
2) Only working hard for the scary people:
I try to be a pretty laid back kind of guy, I'm generally polite, and since I moved to a Bulge Bracket from a boutique, I've pretty much given up hazing. That said, I find that when the analysts, or even junior associates, have conflicting priorities, they opt to work for the person they are more afraid of, and my stuff gets dumped; resulting in me spending another all-nighter cranking on shit books. The net effect of this, is that I'm starting to reconsider my approach. Should I just be a massive prick to everyone in range of my wrath? Will that get things done as the analysts and interns flee for their very lives before my dreadful red pen? Probably not, I keep waiting for the juniors to figure this shit out, the asshole is always going to be an asshole, and that probably means during review as well. Whereas I... was going to be nice during review, now my only reply to the staffer is that you didn't manage your priorities.
3) Why don't you do it:
I've had two analysts and an an intern actually say this to me. Full context: I'm teaching the analyst to build a oil and gas model for a specific southern equatorial country's fiscal regime, and I've shown them how to model a section, they go away for two hours, come back with something that is wrong, and argue that it's right. At this time, I'm considering the fact that I spent 30 minutes showing them, and two hours waiting, for them to do something I can do in about 10 minutes. After I show them what is wrong, and why it's wrong, I encourage them to explain verbally what they need to do to fix it. To which they say "This is really a waste of time, why don't you just build the model, and then we can both go home earlier tonight" (oh also, it's midnight on Friday, and they've missed a date, so they're being huffy). My immediate response was, "a) I don't need to learn how to do this, I can already do it, and b) if I do it, what do we need you for". The next words I write are going to sound exceptionally self aggrandising, but if I'm in the office teaching you to model at midnight on a Friday, be fucking thankful, there are plenty of associates willing to throw you under the bus and go home at 10 or 11 while you wallow in analyst hell all night.
4) Saying "Yeah Yeah, I get it":
I've taken to stopping any analyst that cuts me off with a "yeah yeah, I get it", and ask them to explain back in their own words what they need to do, and sometimes I make them write it down too. Because 90% of the time when they explain it back, it's obvious they don't fucking get it, AND, 50% of the time, if they don't write it down, they won't remember to do it. See the story in number 3), and as annoying as it is when you analysts do something wrong, it's terrifying when something just doesn't get done. One of my analysts said that their homework was done and I could come in Monday, quick review and we show it to the Director. Instead, I spent 14 hours on Monday, well 6 hours fixing shit that was wrong, and 8 hours doing stuff that she apologised for just forgetting about.
5) Not reading the book:
It's amazing the number of times that I can read a paragraph that an analyst has processed comments on, and realise that while they processed the comments, they clearly didn't read the page. Sentences that don't make sense, double double words where they only deleted the words crossed out by the MD, and the MD clearly missed one. My personal favourite a paragraph that included a sentence [Change the sentence to include something about the company's YoY change relative to industry], square brackets and all. If you just read it, tried to understand it, and asked the question, 'does it make sense' you can move into the top 1/3rd of your class, it's just simple shit.
6) Not getting it:
The cherry on this proverbial shit sundae, is when the little bastard that either didn't have time for your book, or screwed up your model comes back and asks you either 'to go for coffee to discuss their performance', or to send a review to the staffers. It's like they worked on a completely different process that I did, and brings me back to the idea that I need to shout and scream more. If you can't tell that you've done shit work without me shouting it, there's a whole level of your development missing, and that's going to prevent you from making it out of the analyst pits.
While I might sound like a bit of a prick, I've been identified in my team as 'excellent in development of junior talent', which from my bank's point of view is a critical skill. Unlike some of the associates that just crush the analysts, I, for whatever masochistic tendencies I have, am trying to help the bastards that would rather check their tinder then be better bankers. We'll see what the peanut gallery has to say about my complaints, if I keep travelling like this, maybe I'll empty out another mini-bar and tell some stories, or lessons about how to politic effectively, without your peers thinking you're a cnut.
Mod Note (Andy) - Throwback Thursday - this was originally posted April 2015
Made me laugh. My recommendation: don't just stop at the mini-bar's beer, hit the nips too...
LOL, reminds me of a first year associate who would go tomato red and freak out at his desk when his analyst is unavailable.
Haha. I love reading all the comments on this site from analysts stating that the associates above them don't know shit. Refreshing change of pace here.
Keep in mind that your VP probably has similar frustrations about all of his associates (including you), although admittedly about different things. And his MD has frustrations about his VPs and on and on. Cycle of life.
... and the Group Head about his MDs and the Division Head about his Group Heads and the Firm President about his Division Heads and the Board about the President and the Shareholders about the Board and the Analysts about the Shareholders because "why do I have to do ANOTHER f#@king SHAREHOLDER ANALYSIS!!!
Second this. Would love to hear from a higher up on the S&T side as well.
Of all the times to teach an analyst, what possibly possessed you to do it at 10pm on a Friday? Shouldn't you at least be pretending to want a life outside the office, if nothing else but to blend in with the rest of the crowd?
Model was due Monday AM, between that and the outputs, probably 40 hours of work. Split with a decent analyst, not a horrible weekend load. I don't like coming in early on the weekend, so if I stayed late on Friday, the analyst would be able to get their part done on their own schedule, I could do the slides on my time, and we'd both avoid a complete write off of the weekend. Other option is I tell the analyst they have to come in early and all day Saturday.
I sometimes really regret leaving finance, and then I read comments like this, and I feel much better. Not a dig on you personally, just commenting on the awful work life balance.
Dude it be like that sometimes. I was a Sophomore SA at a regional boutique on the West Coast and we were working on DD for a French-based company. Every Friday the Assoc. and I were working on tying up a model to upload to the data room as the CFO quit the company once he found out the business was being sold. It was a fucked last 4 weeks of the internship but him and I got really close and showed me the ropes as a Summer. Needless to say there were many 10pm Thu/Fri Modeling sessions
I assume the associate in question (who I agree with by and large) is in Asia where after a long night in LKF or Sanlitun or Roppongi, he's unloading his entirely reasonable rants on what is as anyone with anyone perspective have to admit is a unuiquely mediocre analyst group (with rare exception, including several on my team). One of the key traits of a good banker is to type a coherent email after a long night of drink and the OP appears to have to done it well.
Or he could have been in London and finished a City lunch (three martinis, three pints and a bottle of port) and completed this post (which I agree with by and large).
Not saying that they shouldn't be doing what they're doing, but how should they know that the aholes are going to fk them in reviews and you weren't going to? (reference to #2)
deleted
???
That's one of the things I learned the hard way, and try to teach my juniors. One of the toughest things for me, moving from a boutique with direct line of sight on everyone, to a Bulge Bracket, politics become almost as important as merit, and figuring out who to work for will massively impact your career.
Refreshingly direct and appreciated perspective. Keep writing more.
Sounds like you have some shit analysts.
Been talking to the associates/VPs in my office and the general concensus is that this year is a crap year for analysts, even the MBA hire associates are weak. Following that old saying 'you are likely the only link between all of your problems', I really evaluated if it's something I do or don't do, but I liked the kids we had last year, and nobody likes the ones we got this year.
I'm about to enter my first year at a top MBA program, and will most likely be recruiting for IBD. What, in your opinion makes an associate stand out? Also, what can I do now to build the skills necessary to thrive as an associate?
And how do you think the recruiting process could be improved?
What do you speculate to be the underlying cause of your new hires this year being much weaker?
Great read! +1
Fantastic read.
Recruitment methods for analysts needs to be improved. Some lack work ethic, which is a key principle.
When recruiting is based off networking, it’d be surprising that we’d get the best prospects.
While banking is a people business, this only really happens at the top, and anywhere below that there are a thousand skills more important than being able to strike a good convo with a stranger. The exaggerated importance we give to that usually means that we get a lot of tricksters who are great at nothing but pretending they are useful.
You need more silver bananas for writing so openly about this. Great read, haha!
"I, for whatever masochistic tendencies I have, am trying to help the bastards that would rather check their tinder then be better bankers."
A good balaclava + a predatory pursuit into a dark alley way + a swift hook to the right jaw causing him to fall left + a deep but convincing "you've been swiped left" will do the trick.
Is that kind of thing legal in your city?
This is a great read but it makes me wonder, and maybe you can answer this, how many ex interns come into the job as analysts and really forget the basics of what is expected of them? 1. Because they now have the job and couldnt give a shit or 2. Are some still under that intern mentality that they have to ask everyone for work to get exposure, improve their resume and then actually not realise that asking for work and doing it are two different things?
Lastly...these analysts don't seem to be doing themselves any favour. Will you find yourself gravitating towards only giving work to a select few who you don't eventually want to waterboard in the office when its quiet?
I think the problem is that we become short sighted and only see tasks. Basically, process these mark-ups, find that number, build these comps, and we forget the why, or that these things are there to support a message. That's when you end up with some shit results. That said, I can work with these kids, just have to teach them to look up.
The ones that make me feel like their job is interfering with their lifestyle as a banker, those kids can fuck themselves.
Appreciate the response sir.
Hope the new class this summer throws a few good bones your way
This may not be an issue at your boutique, but you can't really blame analysts for missing the "big picture" at a BB, especially when analysts are not even cc'd on 80% of the emails.
On a different note, the title of this post made me think that I would be reading about something entirely different starting with "So it was late and I was alone in the office when newly recruited Joanna walked over to my desk......" This place throws a few surprises.
Geez... this isn't Lazard...
Great post. +1 SB.
Lets give this gentleman a round of applause, +1SB
Would love to see one from a top performing analyst on post-mba associates. Furthermore, I can totally relate to #2. It is difficult to come across as friendly and demanding at the same time.
+SB, Preach it
i love this post. you should do a webinar with us so you can vent (yell) over the phone :-)
I'd like to encourage anyone with input into the hiring decisions to consider hiring more top MSF students. We are more likely to have finance work experience, and you're also more likely to get candidates with (at least) decent modeling chops.
Are you a post-MBA associate?
I think regarding 2, people work hard for people who they think have influence. A lot of the times influential members are also intimidating or "scary". Maybe reevaluate why people don't want to work hard for you
He did say he moved from boutique to BB, maybe he's new.
This is awesome. +1 Actually made me miss banking a tiny bit and I was definitely guilty of a lot of "yeah, yeah I get it"
did the intern who said "why don't you do it?" get an offer to return?
You sound like a complete dick, but I would work for you.
wow, it was a good read
This was actually quite upsetting to read. As someone trying to break in, it's frustrating to hear that those that made it in are behaving like that. It is especially disappointing how ungrateful they are when you are trying to train them. They are fortunate enough to be able to do real work and have someone to train them, but they don't take it seriously.
What really grinds my gears is that those same guys will probably be able to find another role because they have that bullet on their resume. In any case, good for you OP for investing your time/energy in your analysts.
The hardest part is breaking in. The reality is, when we get a resume book with 250 candidates and have to pick 50 to call, we have to use something quantifiable to quickly draw the call/no-call line (usually school and GPA). There's no doubt in my mind that we've let quality candidates go just because they didn't go to an Ivy League school or have above a 3.5 GPA, and we've hired people with those stats who ended up being busts. Ideally, I'd take a hungry non-target over an entitled Ivy leaguer any day of the week, but we don't have the time or resources to hunt for the diamond in the rough in the resume book.
You've got to get folks on the line separately and get them to see why you should be in the interview room along with everyone else. Keep plugging away.
Problem identified. Unfortunately, as long as this keeps on going, expect weaker and weaker incoming people.
I don't understand this position. A finance major at any well known state university who has a 3.8+ in-major GPA will have a very short learning curve. If your goal is to hire analysts with short learning curves who can make your life easy then call up the undergraduate business school of Penn State [or insert large, well known, well respected state university] and ask them for help in locating their 10 best finance students. You'll have absolutely sick analyst talent on your desk in 24 hours.
Why waste your time recruiting "prestigious" schools for liberal arts majors who have long learning curves?
Loved this piece! Keep it coming.
I think most of the analysts really get to work and get to it seriously when they're held completely accountable for it. As long as they have the 'I'm just an analyst here, I'm still learning so I can get away with a few blunders' mentality, assisting them would be living a nightmare.
Net effect, exceptional post.
Excellent read.
good read
I had horrible 1st year analysts and interns work under me and none of them were as bad as you describe or would ever talk back in that manner.
This is why you don't go from a BB to a boutique. You have no one to blame for the shit talent but yourself.