Is working hard in your early to mid 20's really that bad? I feel like if you work 23-25 in IB, then transfer to PE or HF, you're now working 60-80 hours versus 80-100, you have a bit more of a life and better pay. Then by 30 you're making 500-1m, and you can exit to something around 50 hours a week.
I know it rarely works this way, can someone highlight what goes wrong along the way?
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Life is all about balance. The first thing as you note is that many things can go wrong along the way. Read these boards about how many people hate IB, why continue down that path? Then you have the constant pressure to get to that next level, and if you don’t get the “good” seats then you won’t be anywhere near $1mm at 30. Bad luck can happen (layoffs, bad manager, etc). And then exit to what? You just spent 10 years grinding to get to this high paying job just to then go back to 50 hours and take a pay cut? Assuming you haven’t burned through the money, all you’ve done is bought some financial freedom for 10 years of your life. You can also just lived a balance life and have a great lifestyle (work in F500, get to a senior level over 15 years and not have to grind in your 20’s).
The people who get to the $1mm aren’t those that are looking to take a break at 30. It takes a ton of work and drive, and if you have the mindset of just getting out, then it rarely works. I’m not saying people don’t get out, but that’s not usually the game plan coming in. Losing 5-10 years of your life (not to mention health, etc) isn’t a fun thing.
This is spot on. I’ve taken a long path to IB - am an Analyst in late 20s. I entered with the mindset of “why not grind in my 20s it can’t be that bad and will set me up later in life”.
I still have that mindset but it’s hard to ignore the toll this job has had on my health, both mental and physical. I try to convince myself it’s still worth it and I need to count my blessings I’m able to have this job and be paid what I am, relative to those who grind out 2 more taxing jobs to make ends meet.
Not a sob story at all - I think I’ve just become numb to the idea it’s only working hard in my 20s. I plan to stay in banking and have seen the true grind starts VP on up - it never ends.
Just curious on your long path into IB and what type of bank you're at now? Have not seen many people starting as an analyst in their late 20s and usually go the MBA route
If it’s already affecting your health, what makes you want to stay in longterm?
Can confirm as a senior associate. For director and MDs, it's about making a legacy - it never ends.
How would you recommend approaching it? Is there a job/path other than entrepreneurship to earn a solid salary with a good WLB?
It all depends on what you consider “solid”. Many people on this site have warped views on what normal or even “well off” is. But there are many careers that get you to a very solid lifestyle with a lot more balance. As an example, working in many depts at F500 companies (finance, strategy, operations depending on firm) get you to a solid income in your mid 30’s (most of my friends who took this route are in the $200-300k in LCOL areas with great benefits and stock in the companies). The problem is people somehow want $500k jobs at 28 while working 50 hours a week and no pressure. There is no free lunch. If you want the lifestyle that people show off at mid 20’s (big spending at clubs, fancy apt/watch, crazy vacations, etc) step 1 is become an a**, step 2 is work in one of the high paying industries which most likely is finance (step 3 is inherit or marry into it)
What positions in F500?
Work at MM PE shop and can confirm on buyside that anyone making (likely) at or near 1m does not want to work less. You don't get there with that mentality.
Also I'm 23 and let me tell you that no matter if you work consistent 65-70 (me) hours or consistent 95-100 hours (assuming IB), we are all looking for ways to be more efficient with tasks - aka spend less time working. I've been told I'm good at the job, got top bucket reviews, raise, and told I'm on track for promotion in 6-12 months (which would be on the earlier side given my tenure in my current position). There are tasks I recognize where the hours just have to be put in. But for other tasks, I'm always looking for the quickest way to be done with it, even if said path to finishing task is not done by other analysts. So in a sense I too want to work less.
And to the point about balance, I now take one or two 10-20 minute walks daily outside while the sun is still out. Helps a little and is generally good to move / get actual sunlight because I wouldn't get any sunlight otherwise. At my shop at least, it's not about being chained to your desk all the time. It's about getting your work done - nobody cares how long it takes as long as you do a good job. And good value-add work leads to promotion.
This is all just much easier said than done. There is no easy, consistent path to making $500k-$1m at 30 working 50 hour weeks...
The main issue is burnout and prioritizing other things in life over money. "It's only 2 years" sounds easy from the outside - it is an absolute slug and at some point a lot of people decide their mental health / life outside work is more important than the incremental money. It's also pretty rough to watch your MDs, who are millionaires, continue to absolutely grind their entire vacation, miss all their kids' events etc.
Banking is a great seat for optionality and figuring out what you want to do - but most people figure that making $200k-300k in their late 20s/early 30s and having an interesting job, work-life balance etc are all far better than grinding away for that extra money.
Were you A2A or post-MBA? Curious as you laid out the case of deciding to forgo the path pretty well, but presumably the comp seems to outweigh any issues for you? Do you intend to stick it out to MD?
A2A. Got lucky with a very good group and seniors who really emphasize career development (a few started as analysts themselves)
Doubt will stick it out forever, despite good seniors the hours are still what they are and I wouldn't want to raise a family in IB - but wasn't interested in PE and figured I would print some more checks before heading over to corp dev with more of a nest egg
So you would still recommend pushing through banking? Or do you think there is a better way of going about it/pick a different field?
I would do banking, I just wouldn't enter saying wow, I am going to make a million dollars in 5 years. Enter and say, what do I want to do/find interesting? and use the 2 years to figure it out.
Most people are DONE with working ridiculous hours after 2 years (or 4 years if they choose PE) and in 5-10 years most of your class will be in lower-hour jobs that aren't making a million dollars - corp dev, corporate finance in general, more "lifestyle" smaller PE firms etc. At some point there's just more important things than money. But you don't need to follow that path at 23 yet, banking is still a great start.
There are absolutely other paths out there, but if you can land banking I think the optionality is the best you can get and the resume branding from BB/EB IB will last a lifetime
You just made it this sound very easy and straightforward. Is making $200-300k in your late 20s while also having an interesting job and work-life balance that common? I thought getting that comp outside of IB/PE is a 15-25 year slugfest, which is why we all grind out.
If this a common thing, curious where are the late 20s finance professionals making 300k working 40 hours a week? These guys are getting low / bad year IB associate pay (who are also late 20s) without the IB hours. Sounds a like dream and I want to do what they’re doing.
I've seen corporate roles that get into the 200k possible in late 20s but 300k I don't think so. These jobs will have slower comp progression than IB, PE, etc.
What are the jobs that make $200k+ in your late 20s that are both interesting and have WLB? Every time I look up exit opps here it seems that nothing ever demands less than 60 hours, even in corp dev/strat.
I regret not becoming a SWE like my friends. You can’t have it all in finance.
CRE, AM, ... there are other areas of "high" finance than IB. this website is just obsessed with IB
A lot of corporate strategy/Corp dev jobs at the Manager Level. Tech sales and account executives can make this as well. Even some marketing manager and a few FP&A jobs will pay this. There are also some big 4 consulting jobs that pay this much and have nowhere near banking hours. However the catch is that a lot of these jobs are in HCOL so it’s not as much as it seems.
Above is right - AM is a great job and lifestyle friendly, strategy is not usually bad hours esp if most of the team is not out of consulting. IR is mostly a 9-5, PWM if you're a good sales/relationship type. Even risk surprisingly, not sexy but in certain departments you can hit $200k in your 30s (doesn't go much higher to be fair, but you never work past 6pm)
Quant trading makes 2-3x that out of undergrad for 50-55 hours tops. Issue is it's hard to get in and job security isn't great.
This. To me it sounded so easy from the outside. Just put the hours in for a few years and then you can take some chill 50-hour a week job still making a ton of cash. However, after just a couple of months working 80+ hour weeks, you are absolutely crushed. Especially considering that you are actively working during every minute you are at the office. Constantly being chased on stuff, barely having time for lunch / dinner. As soon as you have a more calm period (going home at midnight a couple of days in a row), your staffer gives you a call and puts another project on your plate. Moreover, 95% of the work is just so boring and braindead, making it even worse. It's not like you're working 80+ hours a week building your own company doing something that you're extremely passionate about.
I also came into this with the idea that it would get better as you become more senior. However, I see my associates / senior analysts grinding as hard as I do. My VPs and MDs have it a bit better because they don't have to be in the office all the time, but they're still available and respond within minutes between 8am and midnight. It's not like a VP could just disappear for a night and go on a date or something.
What is also horrible is the low level of predictability. Happens to me pretty much every weekend. You think you are off so you make plans. Then on Saturday an email from a client or MD/VP comes in. 10 mins later you get an email from your associate "Hi, assume you're already on this, but we would need to get this out later this afternoon. Please let me know if anything is unclear".
I'm at GS so obviously one of the worst places from a WLB perspective. However, I really feel that it's impossible to have some kind of life working here because you work so much and whenever you are free, it's likely you will have to cancel it due to stuff coming up. Working hard to switch industry ASAP.
If I can ask, where are you trying to switch to? Seems that PE is more of the same.
The whole “it’s only 2 years, suck it up” is such a brutal mindset and it’s impossible to understand how bad 2 years can be until you’re working 120 hours a week.
I was at a pretty sweaty bank in a very sweaty group and was one of the higher rated analysts so got put on all the messiest deals. I was very much a believer in “grind it out for two years” but I couldn’t fathom how hard that would be.
I gained a bunch of weight, lost a lot of friends, and was truly miserable for months on end - before going into IB I was very much a “if you can’t grind it out for 2 years you’re weak, how bad can it be”. After working 110-120 hours a week for 6 months I was borderline suicidal and almost quit. “Working hard” is good, but pulling an all nighter once a week, cancelling every single social plan to either work or sleep, and not seeing sunlight for weeks on end is not a humane way of life.
I was lucky enough to land a PE spot on cycle so had an end date in mind pretty early, but doesn’t make the hours or stress any easier. I ultimately quit a bit early, left a bunch of bonus money on the table, and took 4 months off. Would highly recommend for anyone in the same spot… I absolutely needed that time
Has PE been that much better? Having a very similar banking experience and have worked on many sponsor backed deals and their associates / VPs seemed to have basically the same lifestyle with the added stress of the deal actually performing post-close. Makes it feel like PE is more of the same.
Do you recommend purposely trying to avoid top bucket and shoot for mid? Also has those 4 months completely undo the mental damage it did to you?
How does the PE lifestyle compare?
I followed that exact path and am in that exact situation at 30 now. It was totally worth it and life's amazing. Unironically. I would recommend it to a younger sibling
How many hours are you working and what's your comp, if I may ask?
Just under the midpoint of the range you posted in cash. Plus carry. Market is dead so working like 40 hours. But in a normal environment something like 50-55 and then 70-80+ when in sprint mode on a deal which is 25-30% of the time.
Funnily enough, have been thinking about this a lot as I hit my 30s and take stock of my own life, how I compare to my (professional) peers, and how I compare to friends from school / university - some who have pursued a similar career (i.e. in finance), and some who haven't.
Looking back to when I graduated from university, I certainly wouldn't have expected to be where I am now in terms of personal reputation, earnings, or autonomy. I look back to my first jobs out of university, and they were dire: I hated the work (it was tangential to what I really wanted to do), I didn't respect my colleagues, and I didn't respect the organisations I worked for. I had a very clear idea of what I wanted to do for a living, and despite having done all the internships I was "meant" to do (and having gone to a so-called "target" university), I was falling short straight out the blocks. It was immensely frustrating, disheartening, and I certainly considered giving up to pursue something else.
For whatever reason, I didn't end up giving up - I don't know why - and basically stuck at it. Despite advice to the contrary, I moved around probably far more than was advisable until I found a firm I really enjoyed working at and that gave me the opportunity to progress at a faster rate than even I thought possible. It was this that ultimately enabled me to make up for the "progression loss" at the start of my career, and some.
This has essentially left me at the prospective pivot you describe in the original post: work less hours, reap more pay, and live a more balanced life overall. The irony of all this is that now I'm at this point in my career, I absolutely have no intention of slowing down, and - if anything - feel the urge to work even harder. I'm absolutely addicted to my work and, as sad as it perhaps sounds, it is currently the be-all and end-all of my existence. I don't want to do anything else, all I wanted to do is be indisputably recognised as one of the best in my role in my industry.
This, of course, hasn't come without its sacrifices: personal relationships (friends, family, romantic partners), health (in reasonable shape, but by no means as fit was I was during my younger years), and interests (still not a scratch golfer, and by no means as avid a reader as I once was). I'm being slightly facetious, but I can certainly see that I'm not as well-rounded emotionally as perhaps someone who's pursued a more holistic lifestyle might be, and I still have a lot to work on both professionally (soft skills) and personally (relationship skills, disengaging from work).
To answer your question of what goes wrong along the way: as others have noted, it's often not attaining what you what to by a certain age. The opposite side of that same coin - and perhaps something less recognised - is attaining all that you want (perhaps earlier than expected), and then raising the bar after the fact. You say to yourself, "If I've achieved this already, imagine what more I can achieve if I just keep going."
It takes a bigger, more fulfilled man than I to look around at all he's build and be content.
While I still don't intend to slow down, I'm sure there are drawbacks to my current approach that will only become glaringly detrimental further down the line, by which point it will be too late to fix them. For now, these drawbacks - in terms of what they are and what their effect might be - aren't obvious, and to some extent I've already made my peace with them. I wouldn't change anything about my career to date and absolutely love what I do.
tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis
What roles did you go through before finding what you liked?
Left university with no offer after graduating (interned at CS that summer, they were pivoting to WM at the time and shrinking their trading floor in London post-Brexit) >> turned down a master's degree for a junior trading role in an asset class I hated at a shop I didn't respect >> stayed at the same shop, moved to a slightly different asset class, still didn't like it >> moved to a far more aggressive shop (the sort of culture I thought I wanted) trading as asset class I liked >> changed desk at the same shop because, shock, turns out I didn't like the culture >> changed desk again at the same shop >> moved to my current firm, been there ever since
Left university with no offer after graduating (interned at CS that summer, they were pivoting to WM at the time and shrinking their trading floor in London post-Brexit) >> turned down a master's degree for a junior trading role in an asset class I hated at a shop I didn't respect >> stayed at the same shop, moved to a slightly different asset class, still didn't like it >> moved to a far more aggressive shop (the sort of culture I thought I wanted) trading as asset class I liked >> changed desk at the same shop because, shock, turns out I didn't like the culture >> changed desk again at the same shop >> moved to my current firm, been there ever since
Approaching 30 and so I guess this hit home a little bit. I can only speak for myself and a couple close friends, but to sum up our experiences, our needs and wants evolve rapidly during our 20s and what was once our primary or even sole driver in life (e.g., measuring success via your career) changed tremendously.
When I left undergrad, I had no problem working 80-100 weeks (or so I thought) because I was on "the path" and this would place me on the best possible career path. After working that level of hours for a year, my health was declining, I hardly saw my friends, I was stressed all the time, I didnt even feel good at my job, and I wanted something that made me feel at least fulfilled a fraction of the time.
I switched jobs and found something that provided lower total comp but a much better WLB, and then changed my entire life. Started a side hustle, got into great shape, improved my physical and mental health, met a girl, and the rest is history. Once you realize that you can make a sizeable amount (I will never come close to making what folks my age make at top firms in PE / HF / IB) and improve other aspects of your life in so many different ways, focusing exclusively on total comp seems like a pretty sad way to live your life. Some folks are really smart and can find an awesome role at a good fund and work manageable hours and still make 2-3x my comp. To those folks I applaud you, as you have really found the most optimal roles. But the sad reality is most of us have to sacrifice something, whether it be hours of free time, total comp, stress level, etc., and rarely do people still feel as strongly at 30 as they do at 22 about working the most elite jobs and focusing exclusively on TC.
For folks like me and my friends, we wanted to find a good job within finance that pays well and allows us to live a fulfilling life. I will never be the next Ray Dalio and truth be told, I never expected to. I am just looking to make my parents proud, feel a sense of fulfillment, and to be able to provide for my family. I didnt know this when I was your age OP (presumably in college), but I figured it out throughout my 20s.
As you go through your 20s, if you try a bunch of new stuff and engage with a bunch of different people, your identity will shift perpetually throughout those years. I have found that in my early 20s my identity was closely tied with my work, then with my friends, then my hobbies, then with my relationship, and now I am working toward making it a blend of all of the above.
Lastly, to try and answer your question, working hard (assuming sub-70/80 hours a week) isnt that brutal. What is brutal is all the sacrifices you make along the way to continuously work 70-80 hours a week. And one thing to call out, because its a pretty big myth until you start working full-time, is that even in the most brutal FT jobs, rarely are you EVER working 80+ hours per week. Sure, you may be in the office 80 hours a week, near your PC, etc., but rarely do you actually grind for more than 11-12 hours a day.
I agree in general but just a caveat on the last point on not working full 80 hours - in top groups (EB specifically - not sure if BBs do) there are definitely stretches of weeks where you get worked actual 100+ hours chained to the desk. Tbh I really wished what people said were true in terms having a lot of downtime while saying they "work" 80 to 100 hours, but unfortunately some groups experience insane deal flow resulting in no downtime from 9 to 1am.
Good caveat, and 100% agree. I do have friends at certain sweatier banks who regularly claimed 90+ hour weeks of actual working, especially during 2021.
As someone who has been in banking for 15 years, I can promise you that your priorities change rapidly as you age. Money doesn’t become the single driving factor and you start seeing the mental and physical toll this job can take on people.
We have all seen someone more senior than us and been like “I hope to God there’s more to life than whatever he / she is doing.”
Gotcha, so as a student interested business/finance would you recommend doing banking? At least for 1-2 years for the experience? Does it open doors to pretty much any finance roll and improve your acumen?
The only way off the neverending treadmill is to start your own business and exit in your 30s / 40s. The grind literally never stops in IB / PE because your earnings potential is exponential and - you hit ASO and realize you're making 2x what you were as an AN, why would you quit? Then you hit VP and you're so close to seeing $1M / year. Then you hit SVP / D / MD and can see outsized paydays in the future from carry / fee economics.
Only way to break that is to make $10M+ in your 30's (or even 20s). This gives you time off, credibility to launch another venture later if you want to, and an excuse to get off that ever increasing W2 treadmill.
Have also seen this with HFs - people who join startup funds or are absolute rockstars at multi-manager platforms and leverage their way into PM in early 30s -> 8 figure payday from P&L -> retire / do their own thing.
So assuming you do banking for two years, you're 26 when you switch to HF, then 6-9 years to PM. How big would the fund need to be for such a return/how small would it need to be to climb quickly? And HF hours are less than banking, yes? So maybe working 60-70 hours a week (from 26-35)?
just LOL if you think life is that straightforward and that bankers will eventually earn 500k to 1m at age 30. with how shit bonuses are this year, don't think most VPs cleared 500k or even 400k. that's if you stay in the business and don't get fired. most of the class in IB don't go to MF PE and even in MF PE, they don't all make big bucks and work 60 to 80 hour weeks
This forum over simplifies a career (BB or EB M&A > MF PE > HSW MBA > MF PE or some growth investor > Senior PE professional and Member of boards).
you going to be sorely disappointed.
What's a more realistic career path? How common is MM IB > MM PE or MM IB > HF? And what do most people go off and do instead
Let's be real here guys…. The professionals that make the real big bucks and the dream comps are the dedicated ones.
If you are already planning your escape, your back door you have already lost to these guys you can't compete for top positions TRUST ME.
People that join to cash in and get out won't make it far in "high" finance. That does not mean that they won't have successful careers elsewhere and leave the industry with career long learnings.
There is a deep chasm in mentality between the ones that make it as top investment professionals and the ones looking for smooth sailing. You're running a relay race and the other guy is preparing for a marathon and loves every step who's going to get further?
Thanks for the, seemingly obvious, but underrated clarity. Have you found a spot in the space that interests you?
Not to repeat what others have said already, but this is much easier said than done. I did IB at a BB and it was as bad as the stereotypes would say, but I somehow got through it since I had a on-cycle PE offer and knew there was an end-date in sight. Honestly, I was a robot those two years and having a long-distance GF really helped since I wasn't feeling that I was missing out on things (plus, with COVID, there literally weren't things to do after work for half my analyst stint).
When I got to PE, though, this all changed. I noticed those above me had dedicated their entire lives to their jobs; some where married and had kids, but would still be in the office past dinner, then log on until midnight every night. I did NOT envy these jobs. I soon lost the desire to keep grinding it out as at that point I had a decent chunk of savings from my IB bonuses and the sheer total comp / prestige wasn't hitting it for me as hard as it used to. I didn't want to get an MBA purely so I could return as a VP, mainly because I didn't want the life of my VPs. Because of all of that, I didn't really have anything to work for, so I found a new role after my 1st year ASO bonus.
I'm now working in a corp dev role that is in an industry I love. Sacrificed comp for sure, but making enough as is and after a few years hoping to eclipse $200k again. WLB is great and I'm in better mental and physical shape. Sometimes comp isn't everything!
Yeah, that’s very true. Do you think there are firms that exist with a good WLB balance? (in PE, HF, etc.) Possibly MM or something of the such?
I did UMM PE and it was not much better than banking. With that said, 'good WLB' is a sliding scale depending on each person. I have friends who went the MM PE route and they get through it, definitely still have some bad stretches.
At the end of the day, you need to figure out what work schedule you are willing to put up with long term (i.e., weekends getting blown up once a month, once a quarter, once a year... etc.) and go from there. I've heard AM is a good place to explore as well, but personally I wasn't too interested in public equities so I didn't explore it.
Assuming you did 2 years IB and 1 year PE, what comp did you come in for in CD and how do you see it progress over time? Is this in NYC?
Did longer than a year in PE but pretty much yes you got it. Don't want to be too specific but I took slightly less than a ~50% pay cut. I'm not in NYC, but another tier-1 US city. I'd expect a pay cut to range from 35-55% coming from PE / IB to Corp Dev; comp can vary significantly based on company size, ownership, growth strategy, etc.
My WLB is great, though, so I'm happy with how it worked out.
You’ll find that as you progressively move up any organization (IB, PE, etc) that you never get to “chill” after you reach some magical level, but quite the opposite. It becomes significantly more stressful despite “working less” since it increasing becomes about your decision-making, your ability to be an effective self-promoter/navigating and the fact that once you start making materially north of $500k, you are a big expense that’s nice to cut if you’re not adding value. At least that’s been my experience
This is spot on.
100%. I left IB not long ago to join a start-up. But even here, my bosses work extremely hard (near IB hours) as a lot of responsibility rests in their hands and they’re some of the highest comp’d people in the company so constantly need to prove their value.
There really is no magic pill. Unless you’re a true genius you’ll always have to make a sacrifice somewhere, and while I’m still 100% glad to have quit IB and come here (way better WLB, interesting work, autonomy, the best boss I’ve ever had), you can’t have your cake and eat it too. I find myself working hard still, not because there’s a VP shoving stuff down my throat, but because I’ve got to if I want to succeed here.
What role did you join at the startup and what responsibilities do you have? Is it still primarily M&A or more general operations? Very interested in learning more about startup paths in terms of job functions and career / comp progression.
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