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BAML/CS/DB/JPM/Jefferies do model (not sure about JPM NYC but for london they do). GS/MS don’t model No clue about UBS/Citi/Barclays
I heard UBS used to model 6 years ago, wondering if that’s still the case
Surprised that GS does not, given that they have their coverage groups share in the modeling - do you know what the GS guys do instead of modeling?
I think they (UBS still model, just not 100% sure so would rather not put wrong info on here. Citi passed the model to the bank I was at, so looks like they don't model but would rather have someone from the inside confirm.
And for GS, they mostly do Cap Markets, Syndication, Cov stuff, Debt Comps but industry groups (classic) try too keep the model for them and push the more LevFin process stuff to LevFin pods
JPM NYC LevFin does not model. Your other notes are correct. I would note that this website does seem to over stigmatize the LevFin (and sponsors) groups that don't "model". From conversations I've had w/ some BB LevFin guys, while these groups might not be the one building all the bells and whistles in their LBO model from scratch, they do still have good exposure to the models themselves with enough resources to learn the core competencies. While yes you have to do a bit more work on your own, a lot of these guys still place into good funds. A friend of mine from one of these "non-modeling" LevFin groups placed into a MF Special Sits group, while others have landed similar roles.
I used to be at JPM levFin London. So unless anything has changed in the past 1-2 years from when I was there, I can confirm they do not hold the model in London (not sure about NYC tho). In London the models are run by the industry/sector coverage bankers. JPM LevFin in London is focused on analysing bonds and loans, a lot of time spent on Bloomberg.
Although they do have their own huge model (like 30 tabs+) the team uses, but it is simply used to assess capital structure and bond / loan terms when trying to figure out the best way to refinance existing bonds / loans or determining the appropriate financing structure in an LBO.
In terms of modelling you will get very little exposure to it in JPM LevFin london, although you’ll learn a huge amount in other areas.
I guess it depends what people mean by networking then, people at JPM London told me they were modeling, maybe not like industry (ie 3 statements etc) but on cap structure etc. but thanks for clarifying, super helpful!
Wells levfin runs with the model
GS lev fin models and intricately knows the model if not holding the pen. Differs from "pod-to-pod" within GS lev fin the extent to which modeling plays a role on a day to day basis, but any GS lev fin analyst can both pick apart and build a paydown / LBO model and is expected to be able to do so.
Barclays LevFin does not model but the sponsors group does
Have a friend in the FSLF group at UBS, can confirm they do a ton of modeling. Apparently coverage groups at UBS don't model, only the product groups (M&A and LF) do.
Do they have FSLF combined or as separate teams (Sponsors and LevFin)? Thanks for the info.
They're combined, the analysts do origination (FS) and execution (LF). Seems like interesting work but it's an absolute sweatshop in terms of hours
Thanks for all the info provided above first. Are other offices (LA, HK, SG, etc.) within the above-mentioned banks under similar circumstances? Would appreciate any insight.
On this forum I read posts like this quite often: 'does the group model', 'yes they are holding the pen on the model'. Could someone explain what 'they do the modelling' actually entails. What I am used to (Levfin group) is that we have a model built (the team tweaks the model now and then), but that in general this is used and simply filled in with any sponsor delivered models or to test covenants structure (headroom etc). Ultimately, I was just making sure a sponsor model's cash flow was matching correctly with our model (and then filling in a base/downside case). So for the groups that model mentioned above: can I assume this means also simply filling in a pre-made model or are you actually doing much more than that?
To be fair most of the Levfin groups use a template model from my experience (which makes sense)
As part of credit approval processes you usually have to build an operating model with various scenarios, and ultimately this will be done from scratch - most of the time by industry teams though this varies
You also sometimes share a model with credit investors (for loans only) - in this case it is usually a simple LBO from scratch with every value hard coded
But overall indeed - it is not rocket science, though you get very comfortable in any case with how the debt portion of your LBO model works (and it can get tricky especially with the RCF, ratchets, PIKs toggles and the likes) which is the most important
Thanks for the information. In case a Levfin group does not make the various scenario's, this would imply a Levfin banker would not even touch the model (perhaps look at it, but that's it)? With the 'tricky' part, this is once again filling in the template. Make sure you 'toggle' ratchet on and fill in the correct leverage multiples for which interest decreases/increases. (PIK and RCF modelling is even easier..)
I assume that the most important part of the learning curve (technically speaking) for anyone starting in Levfin would be getting really comfortable and familar with SFA's and knowing what to look for and how to get the maximum out of it. Or am I wrong?
Correct on the modelling front. You might do some tweaks here and there but not much modelling if you don’t build the operating model, it is just a matter of tweaking the LBO model
Regarding skill set -> SFAs and legal docs come later on, typically at associate level (if you are good) or VP and above. The real skillset in my mind is: - Learning how to run a process (bond vs loan, refinancing vs LBO, etc) - Understanding how to critically look at a credit investment, looking at the risks, the resilience factors etc. You actually end up thinking like an investor - albeit not an equity investor given you don’t really think about upside (limited liquidity of debt markets + capped coupon typically means you are not gonna make big bucks in private debt unless distressed) - Getting exposure to a number of live transactions, and closing quite a few deals (more than your M&A peers) - Seeing à lot of companies across industries and having sponsor exposure
However it is true that you have limited modelling exposure (although I have to say modelling is overrated in banking), no exposure to valuation and little exposure to M&A processes. So you have clear downsides and upsides depending on where you want to go after
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