Resilience in the face of rejection
I'm sure this topic has been regurgitated numerous times on this site, but I'm looking for advice and some encouragement. I am my username - new (to the process), and intimidated. I've been applying for banking summers for 2024, and it's been exhausting, more so mentally than anything else. I've done my necessary prerequisite work, like get my resume reviewed by upperclassmen, attend some webinars to understand the process, and I've been applying as early as I possibly can. But still, every instance of getting ghosted/rejected knocks me down really hard.
I know I need to be resilient and just keep trying, but it's so hard to stay optimistic, given that the entire process is so opaque. I'm from a target uni, but I don't study anything remotely close to finance, and it freaks me out that maybe I'm applying for something I'm not cut out for. Being surrounded by exceptionally motivated and driven people is inspiring to an extent, but it also makes the fear of failure that much bigger: what if I'm that one person who doesn't manage to break in, despite working as hard and trying my best?
It's stupid to get caught up in the "what ifs", and I've had enough prior experiences in my life to know that the only way to guarantee eventual success is to keep working hard. Still, I'm looking to hear stories from people who went through recruitment in recent years and struggled with self-doubt midway, but ended up making it through.
I'm looking for any advice regarding staying resilient, and not getting caught up in anxiety spirals. I feel like hearing something from someone on the other side would give me datapoints I can trust, and I'd feel more confident about my efforts. I'm going to keep applying no matter what, but it'd just be nice to feel a little more confident, and not terrified of the process.Thank you in advance for the inputs.
Alright I'll try here. Mainly because I was you. I was the guy who wouldn't apply to top universities because I thought I wouldn't get in. Would apply to less competitive roles like MO and BO to hedge my bets. Wouldn't even ask a girl on a date until 3rd year of university (I think?) because of fear of rejection. I had a lot of mental health issues growing up because of this self-doubt and such. Even when I became an IB Analyst, I thought I'd never make it very far and certainly not to senior positions.
Now I'm a decade into my FO IB career (and married to the purest, sweetest woman I've ever met by the way as a happy ending to that story) and hey, I'm getting rejected ALL THE TIME. Clients don't respond to emails when we share an acquisition opportunity. Those that do mostly turn it down and if we're lucky we get a reason. We pitch to get on a sellside role and the client gives it to [Inset bank here]. Then we try for the buyside and can't find a good horse. And then we try for financing (or hedging maybe?) and that's a struggle. Or we reach out to a coverage banker for [Insert company here] and ask if they'll help us pitch a divestiture of some division, and they tell us the idea is dumb. You get the picture.
Now, what I'm about to say might shock you, but it is fucking everything. You can't be successful, in my opinion (and it's an opinion only), while being afraid of failure and rejection. Because then you don't try. I've got a lot more respect for the guy who asks out the pretty girl and gets rejected than the fella who doesn't even try.
That was a long preamble. But to your question, I think for me, that resilience came from three places:
(1) Reps. You have to get in those rejection reps to build up that resilience muscle. It's not going to feel very nice. But the more you do it, the more you become accustomed to it. You also learn a lot, and you're able to iterate on your approach. Remember that not everything is going to work, and in the words of my Dad "you've got to throw a lot of shite at the wall son before any of it sticks". Trust me, you'll get used to rejection - that doesn't mean (necessarily) that you're inherently bad in any way.
(2) Self-confidence. Obviously this doesn't grow on trees. But you're at a target university - pick yourself up. You're a pretty damn smart guy or girl. If you don't think that, it's pretty insulting to the thousands of applicants that didn't get admitted. You've probably got other things you're good at and which other become suck at. I'm not going to tell you to repeat some "be strong, it's ok" mantra, but for pity's sake you must be successful to be even applying for these sorts of institutions.
(3) Realising that most of the chads and glorified successful types are mostly faking it too. I guess you haven't seen an MD BSing on a client call when the client how EBITDA margin decreased over the past 5 years or something to that effect, but it's real. That's only an example but you get the point - "fake it till you make it" is a cliche for a reason.
Anyway, your question is a really hard one to have a "silver bullet" type of answer to, and I think you're smart enough to know that you weren't going to get one. But I hope that at least some of the above has a useful takeaway. And if it doesn't then, at least I tried, right?
Hi! Reading this made me tear up haha. It gave me a lot of optimism and inspired me. Would you mind PMing me for some career advice? I’m going through a really tough time right now with no return offer from my SA position and only rejections so far in FT positions.
U got this
Great advice at a target everybody talks about what interviews or offers they got; it sometimes feels really disingenuine big ups to all the prospects out there who are pushing through even when things are looking like they are in the mud.
Thank you for taking the time out to write this - it really helped. You are so right about building up rejection reps, because that helps put a positive spin to a seemingly negative experience. I relate so heavily with your first bit about self-sabotaging by simply not being sold on myself, but I'm so happy to hear that things have taken a turn for the better, and that you are somewhat on "the other side" of this issue, if that's fair to say. I really appreciate the response, and the more zoomed out picture of what things look like after recruitment (that is, the rejections don't ever really stop, and that's okay!).
Thank you for the comment on being at a target university, as well. I know it's a big achievement, but it just doesn't feel like it sometimes when you're in the midst of its competitive bubble. I know there's no silver bullet type answer or solution to regaining self-confidence, but this is exactly the kind of perspective I needed, and I'm really grateful for your comment!
I love this response, a pleasure to read. Thank you for posting it.
To add to this - you have to realize that tomorrow always comes
If you're in france you can forget about it if you don't come up with a recommendation from a powerful guy. Sorry to break your dreams my friend but I can ensure you that you're going nowhere without this.
If you're still motivated + bilingual you could pass online certifications from WSO/the forage or other companies and travel to see how it goes
Wait what? I’m from france and never went that way
I think you should definitely spend some time figuring out if IB is really what you want to do. It’s very easy to get caught up in the whirlwind when all your peers are recruiting in finance: repeat something in your head 1000 times and it sounds like the truth. Is that what you did with IB?
If you’re at a target, majoring in something that is not remotely related to IB, give yourself more options. Look at SWE or consulting, or roles related to other majors. What really helped me in the face of rejections was telling myself that IB is just my first job out of undergrad. Maybe there are a lot of external factors at play right now during recruiting but in the long run, it’s about your ability. Remember that
If you’re on about London summers, the majority of them only really opened yesterday… Other banks are to open as well including EBs, Barclays, Deutsche etc
We’re still pretty early though to this cycle but I hear you. I’m sort of exhausted myself from the applications but we’ve just got to keep going. It doesn’t help either that the markets tough and it seems a lot of people who didn’t get return offers from summers this year are applying as well instead of FT recruiting which makes it even more hard.
At the end of the day we only need one offer and rejection happens to everyone. All we can do is try our best and to not give up and keep working on improving our applications as we progress.
I am talking about London summers - yesterday was just a bad day. So many things opened that I lost track midway, and for the stuff that I did apply to, the following steps have already piled up, and it's been absolutely exhausting.
You're spot on with the recruitment cycle feeling extra challenging because of the rough market conditions and re-recruitment from people who didn't convert their summers. Technical errors with applications don't help? A lot of people had issues receiving online tests and HireVues for the apps that did open, and it's annoying having to follow-up with HR for the test when it's supposed to be "automatic".
You're right though in that we do have to keep going, and I'm just hoping there's that one firm that really sees potential in me and takes that chance. Every time I do an app, I feel underwhelmed/disappointed by my written answers, or my test/HV responses, or just my overall application. How much of that is grounded in reality, though, I'm not sure.
I'm trying to remind myself that rejections before interview stages often have less to do with me, and more to do with luck. I don't know if that's false, but it helps me not take things tooo personally. Thanks for your comment, though, and wishing you luck with the apps!
If it’s any consolation I feel like a lot of people felt overwhelmed by yesterday, including myself. I didn’t even eat my first meal until 3pm yesterday because applications were opening at random times. By the end of the day, my brain was completely fried.
I had technical issues as well with receiving hvs (JP which should’ve been instant) and it’s so annoying. Doesn’t help they opened applications on fricking Friday so HR is less likely to respond over the bloody weekends.
I’d say if you know a good friend whos applying to summers it’ll be good to talk to them and tell them how you’re feeling. Chances are they’re feeling the same as well.
Absolutely I think the right attitude is to not take it personally. Before you submit your application just think if this is the best you could’ve done. There’s still no need to rush applications and I’ve realised whenever I rush it, I mess it up. Let go of the fear and try to be more confident. Not trying to go all David Goggins over you but you have to believe in your abilities.
I know you’ve got this, just have a little confidence in yourself!
I'm of the opinion to not rush the assessments to get the earliest possible application. Yes obviously still apply early, but don't risk failing them just to get an extra day or two, same with HVs.
I don't know if this will help you, but thought might be a funny read at least.
Throughout 2021 and beginning of 2022 I was heavily interviewing, wanted to move from my city at the time (from a mid-office position) into IB in London - you wouldn't believe the laughs I got when I was networking and trying to get my chances. After excruciatingly painful & long processes - each time I was told they decided to move on with someone else, who had better credentials than me - finally, I gave up, decided that I'm trying to hard to make it somewhere where apparently I don't belong. Funny enough, the week after I gave up, accepted another role in finance, but with a less fancy title, and started preparing to apply to top schools 'so that I can finally belong' - I got THE offer.
Moral of the story ? you'll get there in your own time, don't want to sound cliche, but if you still have it in you to fight and go after it - do everything that's in your power to succeed, eventually, you'll find a way ;)
Congrats on getting where you are today man, and for not giving up. It definitely helped - i just needed reasons to know that it will be okay, and I think this whole thread more than convinced me. Thank you for your comment though, appreciate it :)
Where did you do your undergrad degree if I may ask? Without details of course but was it Russell Group uni or not? I am aiming to lateral myself but want to avoid doing the Masters at the target uni.
I went to a super non target - not even in top 50 universities, although I'd note that I had a strong track record of being at the top throughout my studies - which helped with the recruiting initially. It didn't matter when I was interviewing with IB tho, as I already had full time experience and they focused more on that rather than my uni. I wouldn't worry too much about the institution - if you have a great network and can reach to them for references and advice - this helps, if not - build your own.
Till around junior year of college, I was always just scared. Scared to talk to people, nervous to apply to things, anxious for interviews, uncomfortable in social situations. I had a friend who was doing well and he always gave me advice, but his mentality was generally to just not care. And it's so easy to say, but if you don't get the job, who cares? They're going to move instantly, and you'll get over it in a few days. Talk to the girl at the bar, maybe she entertains it and it turns in to something, and if not you move on. I still struggle with this and fall in to my old ways, but on a daily basis I make a conscious effort to do stuff that makes me anxious. And if I look at the general progress I've made in my life and as a person, since I implemented this change, it's been huge. I wish I had a mindset where this came naturally, and it's something I'm working on, and I still fail at this often, but just fucking do it. You're smart, so go out and see people that inspire you and try to replicate their behavior. Learn more, dress well, engage in conversations, just do stuff. I wasted a lot of time being worried, but I realized now it was pointless. Don't just be a feather in the wind, go out there in the world and take what you want. I've helped others try to adopt this mentality, and I see it doing wonders for them as well. Take some initiative.
I would legit sweat through my shirt initially during interviews, now they're one of my strongest skills. Fuck the person on the other side, they're just a normal guy who got this job at some point too. Believe in yourself.
I think the way you’ve programmed this in your head is fundamentally flawed; most people will struggle with recruiting unless they;
1) are statistically very lucky
2) are experienced (in which case they almost certainly struggled at one point)
3) were hired through nepotism
4) fit certain quotas
Even if you’re at a target, nothing is promised to you; everyone else at your school is at a target, and is applying for the same roles if not more. So why hire you and not them?
There will be MSc folks at LBS and LSE who pay >50k for their programmes, with multiple internships back home who get their SA spot taken by a 2nd year geography undergrad who doesn’t know the difference between enterprise value and equity value. And if they can’t recruit they have to go back home…how do you think they feel??
It’s ok to care, and to want the best for yourself but try to be pragmatic in how you think about things. You’re depriving yourself of being a happy, healthy young adult because you’re scared of a bank rejecting you of all things. Don’t let your happiness be conditional on achieving/obtaining certain things, they’ll eventually come and you’ll realise you’re still not happy. Happiness comes from within. Find that in you. Don’t worry about recruiting, you’ll get what you deserve whether it’s 1 year from now or 10 years from now. Believe that.
Why do you want to do banking if your major is something that “isn’t even remotely related to finance”?
.
Literally went through the same thing as you last summer for SA '23 roles. This is something that has beaten - including those who I would consider more talented / intelligent / experienced than me, down. People hate going through rejection and I felt the same way. It sucks waking up to see 3 emails from a robot saying that you're not being considered, or getting ghosted after spending 45 minutes doing a HireVue or taking an IQ test - feeling like you never got a shot to begin with.
If you push through this rejection and give this semester everything you have - it will come together. I spent July - October making applications my first priority, filling out apps, rehearsing and scheduling interviews, and it just takes one good offer for it to feel all worth it.
One thing that WSO won't tell you because of the hardo image - apply to more than just IB. Sprinkle your apps with some Corporate Finance / Middle Office roles. I got a ton of interviews for these roles. It increased my interviewing confidence with practice, and it felt good that some of these places saw a spot for me to some degree, despite it not being the magnum-opus front office role that everyone on here talks about. It will allow you to hedge your bets if top tier recruiting is rough, and it gives you leverage opportunities for roles you want more by declaring you have an offer in hand. Don't paint a picture that it's IB/ST/AM or bust (once again, I don't know what you're looking to get into).
Don't end the process holding the bag because you couldn't get recruited and only applied to the hardest possible roles, especially since this season is pretty rough for picking up interns.
And I know this time is rough. Recruiting sucks for literally everyone. There's probably <5% of people who won't face this type of rejection. Just know that what will end up separating you from the talent pool, is that you pushed through it by applying to every role under the sun and trying your absolute hardest at getting something. Feel free to send me a message if you want to talk more about it, I know how these things get.
I appreciate this comment so so much, I just went over it 2-3 times haha. Just finished a HV, and I feel so exhausted, but still proud that I even got it done. I'd love to message you further actually, if that's okay with you! Thank you for your comment, and I'm really happy to hear that you got that one offer that made it all worth it. I'm kinda in the same boat - I know some people have specific places they want to be at or whatever, but for me, I just want AN offer and a chance to do an internship in an area that I'm interested in next summer, and all of this would be worth it. I self-sabotage a lot, and end up regretting not pushing myself and believing in myself more, so this year, I've committed to trying my best regardless of what happens. It just gets hard to stay confident when you think you've done your best, and it's still not enough to even get you some face-to-face interaction with someone at the firm. I get you though, and I'm manifesting the same outcome for myself. Have a good day!
a mentor of mine came from a rural town, was a special needs student, had abusive parents, and a broken family life. he went to community college, worked hard, and transferred to a target school, where he was able to graduate with 0 loans bc of need based finaid. worked hard there and placed well, but then he hit roadblocks. for example, he worked hard to place SA at a EB/BB, but did not get the FT offer from his junior yr SA IB firm, and had to start elsewhere after college before lateralling to an EB. going from IB --> PE, he did not place where he wanted and took some time off to reflect, before trying again and placing at a UMM PE firm. he's now looking to go to a SM HF (Tiger Cub/Baupost/Activist/etc.), and the man's resilience and character are absolutely admirable and god level traits. honestly, I think it's people like him who will go on to do great things in life and be there to help others in need when they face similar struggles. have an insane amount of respect for said person.
ik for a fact that he suffers from severe ptsd (to be real, no one walks away from that kind of shitty ass upbringing and becomes a "normal person" by wall street standards), but he counters it by getting involved in and donating to NYC organizations that try to solve child abuse and poverty issues. even with his demanding work schedule and many roadblocks he faced, he still powers through them like the terminator and makes time to get involved in things that matter to him. this guy is my superhero and i seriously hope he runs wall street one day.
none of the above would have been possible if he didn't work as hard as he did, and even when he did not get the FT offer from his junior yr IB shop, he still persevered to start elsewhere and lateral somewhere better. he does often joke that at his junior yr EB/BB, he was a bottom bucket intern who made many careless mistakes, but never let any of it get to his head or heart.
Bro I'm literally finishing working as AS2 at a MM PE with previous IB experience at BB/EB (+target school) and can't get past screening at banks like Nomura in this market. Even some CorpDevs. No idea who they're hiring.
This market is BRUTAL.
Curious as to why you think banking is a better place to be; naturally returns will be stinted for mid-bottom quartile PE funds for the foreseeable, but top funds should still perform even with the interest rate environment surely?
I hate both. Just happened to hate my current stint even more.
Just to echo a lot of the other resilience memoirs - everyone goes through rejection unless you're the lucky 0.001%; everyone will get rejected from majority of summer apps and I'll tell you now, that doesn't stop there > there's a reason PE is so coveted, it's also because there's a lot of bankers who can't get into it (I know several friends at top EB/BBs who have struggled to land offers).
100% agree it's best to spread your apps from non-FO; I initially didn't get an IB summer but applied and got one the year after (still didn't convert as lost out to the gender quotas despite being top performer across the whole summer, you never escape the shit).
Now I grafted and got pushed down the consulting route vs. IB and 4 years later now at MBB, despite 30+ rejections from PE firms at various stages of interview processes (only got 1 offer and that was MBB so best to spread your bets) ... then you reset and go again
After you've built up your rejection reps (+ generally matured after a few years of full time work), I personally view each interview just as an easy conversation. Even if i'm not interested in the role, i'm curious as to how people view different opportunities + the market in general so take most inbounds. It's not easy to start but you get used to it + helps you come across a lot more relaxed. At the end of the day, this entire industry is about relationships, if you conduct yourself well in an interview and come across like an easy person to grab a beer with (/ [insert non-alcoholic beverage here]) you WILL be remembered (+ helps later down the line as an easy intro for dealmaking or just another hiring season).
You'll be ok, just have to learn to change your relationship with rejection. There's a reason everyone quotes "failure is learning", it's because you don't grow without it
I hear you, rejections wear you down. You start to question yourself, your abilities, if you're cut out for the path, if you'll ever make it. It's a spiral and it sucks. Here is some perspective that might help.
This might not sound helpful, but everyone goes through it. Almost all of us did. If it gives you any peace, you are not alone
Recruiting is a numbers game. All the good applications are fairly identical. Top schools, good grades, good extracurriculars, mostly networked and have some sort of internal champion. It's really hard to differentiate. The juniors who filter resumes are tired, overworked, and have huge to do lists for files. What that means is sometimes resumes go in the trash just because someone has more important urgent things to do. Or they're just having a bad day and want to go home. Same for interviews, some people have thigns to do and their head is not in it. Why is this important? Because you have to internalize that unless you massively fucked things up, it's really not you or any shortcomings. It's extremely competitive, the acceptance margins are really fine and sometimes its just luck of the draw.
You can take two paths when you fail. You can wallow in the misery and question yourself or you can look back and try to understand why and see what you can do better. I cannot emphasize how important this is as a soft skill, it's something that will carry you all through your life. You'll lose bakeoffs, some of your ideas won't resonate, deals won't close, you'll be laid off or fired. Dealing with adversity in a healthy way will make you that much more resilient.
There is that age old saying of focusing on the things you can control. For recruiting, it's making sure your resume sells you well, you've networked and made the right impression, you're prepped for interviews and technicals. Whether yes or no, if you can walk out of every process knowing you absolutely put your best foot forward, you should hold your head up high. I don't consider those situations failures.
All the best man, I hope you land what you're looking for.
One thing to also consider is that you do not have to make it through the front door the first time. The EB or BB > MF PE > MBA > MF PE > sungod path is very well trodden and is obviously the most straightforward if a long-term career in private equity is your goal. That being said, the actual pathway is just a tool and not the only way to accomplish your long-term career goals. I wish that I knew this when I started my career. Even if you strike out with name-brand banks, there are hundreds of boutiques out there that would happily take you. They do not work on billion dollar M&A deals, but the work is the same, just on a smaller and less complex scale. Just because you strike out with top banks right out of school does not mean that your dreams are crushed- it just means that you might have to make a pit stop at a smaller bank before lateraling to a larger one. And who knows...you might end up discovering that what you want today is not what you want tomorrow.
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