Hey guys,
Sorry I know this topic has prob been beat to death. But I can never find a reliable source for how rx firms are doing.
With offers from PWP, HL and Guggenheim Rx, would love to know how you’d choose between the 3 firms. Also, how would you stack these rx groups against typical BB coverage like UBS, Barclays, BofA and Citi? I know most would prob go with gs ms and JPM, which is why I didn’t include them.
But for a guy who really wants to do rx, how would you think about the above 3 shops this year?
Again, sorry if redundant. Just wanna make sure I make the right choice here.
This will be controversial but..
Guggenheim
HL
PWP
Now before I get MS, let me explain.
Guggenheim (The new kid on the block) has had a killer year, full stop. Being the FA to Hawaiian electric, debtors mandate on rite aid, along other mandates, they have absolutely destroyed everyone’s expectations. They have the highest growth potential. But that being said, they do not have as good as exits as HLRX just because HLRX has been the dominant player in the space for eons.
HL (The established best choice) is the standard best choice. But they are a lot more creditor focused these days, and definitely more of a volume shop. Great exits, great people, if you don’t want to consider RX in the long term they’re a the shop to be at for exits, since they’re older and more established.
PWP.. what do I say here. There are rumors around concerns of deal flow, and while they’re smaller than other RX firms, they just aren’t very capable. Not to mention if they learn you want to go to PE they’ll fire you on the spot (from what I’ve heard, pwp alumn please confirm or deny). Don’t get me wrong they still get good mandates but it’s clear that market share is going elsewhere.
RX is more complicated than standard deal processes, and they will definitely make you more credit oriented / turnaround investing focused in the recruiting process. If you want to do buyout then just do coverage. You’ll get looks all the same but if you don’t want to do credit stuff then you don’t have to.
This was super insightful thank you very much. Think this has made me much closer to my decision.
Your best bet is to find people within your school (I assume you're an MBA) that are incoming and ask about their experiences/opinions of their firms. When you ask people on WSO there view of things is obviously not the full picture/distorted from reality.
However, I wouldn't say the guy's list above is neccessarily incorrect. I know gugg rx is very anti-buyside recruiting per my friend who just recruited there. Out of all restructuring firms they have been the most committed to building out their rx franchise though.
HL rx is good but again they're a creditor focused shop and I keep hearing rumblings from my friends that there are alot of shitty seniors and all of the key mandates are secured by a few people. It's not clear if you're coming in as a associate or an analyst but I think alot of what HL Rx has to offer erodes at the associate level.
Idk too much about PWP's rx franchise so others should chime in. but I don't think people get fired on the spot for on-cycle recruiting. My friends works in the M&A group and based on my conversations with them many seniors now are very committed to helping analysts during on-cycle.
I have a friend who worked at PJT RSSG and he told me that the only real competitors to their franchise was Evercore, Moelis, and Lazard. Everyone else was really fending off for scraps. Hope that helps.
I think the OP is an summer associate so I don’t think he’s looking at exits, I’d personally be at a higher growth firm.
I think people also forget that not every group is the same at a bank. Each come with a different culture. It’s like comparing MS M&A with MS Metals and mining, they are fundamentally different groups in the same firm
Also per your “scraps” comment, I work a little downstream at a firm not listed above, have you ever considered different firms prioritize different mandates? You really think firms like Ducera expect to win pitches like WeWork? They orient themselves to things they know they can win.
Houlihan has become a creditor shop because they know they can make as hoc groups and have enough information on them to be competitive.
Not the poster but I can provide some insight. It isn't wrong per say re: EVR/PJT taking basically all of the most topical cases in rx. If you work in rx you basically know that these two firms listed have the sheer size and strength to capture the majority of rx work.
I agree comparing banks to banks isn't an apples to apples comparison. HL, Gugg, PWP all have significantly different business models. Gugg will probably in the future be the size of HL so they are more comparable but PWP (as its entire franchise is) isn't comparable from a business perspective to many other banks. Not a bad thing but they have a different business philosophy.
I have to disagree with you on PWP having concerns with "deal flow"... on the top of my head I can already count 5+ active mandates they are currently working on, and I've encountered them many times. They'll suffer a little bit unless they scale given how tiny their group is but per your argument not everybody is trying to be #1 in league tables... If you're interested in buyside recruiting as an associate I know there's a few PWP associates who went to firms like HPS and Davidson Kempner, so exits shouldn't be a problem, and it's flat out wrong that PWP still discourages on-cycle recruiting.
Saying all that what is your goal as an associate? do you want to be a career banker? do you want to leave ASAP and find another job down the line?
I think honestly depending where your HL offer is it's probably still the best offer for most aspects. They are a legacy name, they seem relatively supportive of buyside recruiting, and many of their MDs started out as analysts, so there's upward mobility if you perform well over time. I've seen very strong HL rx exits from the associate level to very good Distressed funds.
PWP and Gugg are very good but in your situation HL rx is still probably the best option. It's definitely declined a little from its glory days.
From a comp perspective it goes PWP>HL>GUGG iirc but that's just because PWP is lean and guggenheim will probably suffer a little from the Comp perspective due to guarantee's for new senior hires.
Sorry, but your viewpoint is simply inaccurate.
Hey man it’s just my thoughts, and excuse me I must have misheard on Pwp, I guess I just haven’t had too many run ins vs Evercore, Lazard, etc.
I’m basing it off my experience working in the field and what I’ve seen. I’m sure everyone has different understandings etc. If I get MS for choosing Guggenheim over HL that’s fine with me, I know HL is better for exits, but I’d prefer to be at a higher growth firm vs one that has a lot of dead weight but is cemented as one of the best. I don’t expect my word to be the word of god lol
I'm assuming that you're college/MBA student?
Depends if these are all NYC. The standard answer would be HLRX(NYC)>PWP=Guggstein, imo probably how most rx bankers perceive it too. I honestly think you'll only gain marginal benefit going to one or the either, however HLRX(nyc) has the most established exits and practice among the three.
People would consider these all tier 1ish offers, around par with any of the groups at the bulges besides maybe (GS TMT, MS M&A/Menlo, JPM M&A). At the end of the day it depends on what the individual wants.
Why just NYC for HL? Have heard all offices work in tandem.
No.
All offices are good but general belief is NYC>LA>Others. While the RX head is in LA, the biggest RX group is NYC which sees a higher quantity of quality deals and better exit opps.
2022 League Tables from Reorg
Hmm very interesting. Have never seen a table like this for RX before. Few things I wonder. Does it take into account scale of the restructurings? Like Gugg being on Garuda indonesia, SVB, first republic, rite aid etc… would def be shocked if anyone took piper Sandler, CVP or Jefferies RX over Gugg. EVR HL MO LAZ make sense. Though laz has def fallen off these past two or so years.
No one really looks at league tables. I mean the most accurate are the Bk tables but it’s just so hard to track liability management bc no one wants to announce they’re having so many problems that they’ve hired RX bankers.
That being said, Piper Sandler does a lot of creditor work v cvp which is more debtor side. And jefferies gets a ton of debtors mandates but they’re all sub billion, so they don’t compete in the same are as the top boutiques.
Hence the “most retained” not most retained 1b+ which would show our understanding of rankings.
It's hard to judge a practice by how it ranks on the league table for rx. There's a lot of details that aren't really mentioned like where advisors primarily work on the creditor stack. Jefferies for example are mainly high up there because they're a UCC power house (low tranche seniority with low recoveries), they don't often get top creditor or debtor mandates.
I'd say at the moment PJT and Evercore are beating everyone's meat though, with MoCo only a bit behind. Lazard has started falling a bit lately, but I'm sure they'll be fine in the long run.
does it matter if you are on more creditor vs debtor? and do you get the fees the same? I am assuming if you are ont eh debtor side you have contact or know the MDs so thats good for the bank?
Hey!
so debtor side mandates usually involve alottttt more work. The fees for them are also significantly more. As an rx banker you’ll work on both. Creditor side mandates are great because it’s often a source of repeat business like, if you helped ares get the best outcome for their sub debt they’ll probably hire you to help with their next investment. On the debtor side, companies don’t usually go bankrupt twice. It does happen every now and then though.
your second to last sentence is just wrong.
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