I want to quit Goldman Sachs
I work at Goldman Sachs London as a Technology Associate and previously worked at another BB. I've always found my job incredibly frustrating, boring, and hierarchical.
I always thought I was cut out for tech startups but was lured in by the money (not very much I might add) and prestige. I find at Investment Banks, technology roles are not appreciated. You're not the money maker. At Google or Uber as a programmer you are the rockstar. Even in a Quant HF you can be the star player by building high frequency trading systems or writing trading strategies.
I'm now coming towards my late 20s, would probably make VP next year, but have very little motivation to stick it out. I've got the money I needed an bought a house. Am I crazy for thinking of quitting one of the most sought after companies in the world to either a) do nothing and code/travel for a while or b) join a no name startup and do something fun?
What would you do?
Make sure you find something you really want to do before you quit. You wouldn't want to sit on your ass for a year or so. Also, it shouldn't be hard for you to find a respectable job; given your background.
No. Goldman isn't sought after to work in its back office. Just like working for an NFL team as a towel boy isn't a sought after position. Extreme analogy, but fairly applicable.
I understand your point however it's not so clear cut anymore. With traders being automated out of jobs, the lines between tech, starts, and trading are becoming very blurred. 1/3 of the bank is technology, and some parts are revenue generating. Working in technology is not back office in the same way working in ops or hr are.
I work on the trading floor alongside the traders, but ultimately the code I write simply services them. I do have a friend who works in strats in FX who seems to love it. Could it just be my team?
Even as someone who isn't in a tech division, I really appreciate this post. I always had the feeling there were a lot of talented guys (and tbqh, probably more technically gifted than many of their junior IB counterparts) working in IT at banks.
Except this is a retarded comment. Back office implies a low paying job that has no exits. It mainly applies to finance/accounting people who're not working front office jobs at the big investment banks. Tech/computer science is a whole nother world... Some of my smartest peers (2300s SAT, MIT/Cal tech) who were comp sci did internships at BB technology offices, and I guarantee you they're smarter than 99% of "front office" banking scrubs who just build comps and pitchbooks all day.
Not to mention Goldman's return offer for tech people was $100k plus 10-20k bonus... compare that to real back office ops salary of 60k.
I work at a reasonably sized AM and we treat our programmers and business analysts very well. They're integral to the business and as we keep on adding more systems for trading and execution, they're invaluable in automating processes and this is well-known by most of the company.
Since you have a strong resume coming from Goldman, you might try and join a smaller financial services firm that needs technical expertise.
Yea for sure, though it is similar in GS. But the technologists are not the decision makers. Compare that to being at Facebook 5 years ago or Uber now.
My pet hate is the internal structure. VP's in technology fear talking to traders, or rather they have a preconception that because someone is a trader they are more important than you. We basically do whatever they say. Add to this the general corporate bureaucracy you get in a large company, and it's a pretty frustrating place to work at.
I guess I don't really aspire to work up the ranks to VP, MD, Partner etc. I look at those people above me and really don't want to be them. The job looks boring and the pay is probably not great since they don't look like they have money and live in not great areas. My friends who became traders earn more in bonus than their base. In tech you work weekends and go above and beyond and you might get unto 25% of your low base. Not worth it.
Your making upwards 150k+ or more and you have decent working hours. I would kill for that any day and would want to stay there forever tbh.
The average day is 10 hours but often you have to work late. You also are made to work weekends occasionally for free. I don't make $150+ (MAYBE in the US) as i'm in the UK. More like $85 base $15 bonus (not had one yet so don't know).
At Google you'd have a better environment/hours and also be paid more and respected considering you would be the equivalent of FO. Thoughts?
if you're paid in GBP you get exactly what he just suggested...pre brexit anyway
Weren't you making a thread about how much you loved the hedge fund industry...
I also work at a BB in London in m and aand fully get what you are saying. The hierarchy, bullshit stress, lack of intelligent senior people has really taken a toll.
I would say there is nothing wrong with your plan (I too am looking at tech) but if you decide to quit have an executable plan that you can get on asap (grad school, startup etc).
Banking sucks balls no matter where you work.
Has it always been like this? I feel like banking is going downhill and the last 5 years was the worst time to get in.
The only reason i'm still here is 1. prestige 2. i still get paid
Once you leave it's pretty hard to go back so i'm just making sure I really do want to exit this industry. There's always the option that I could move to strats and be on the business side etc...
From personal observation, I think you are right that there has been a downhill trend in banking.
I think the quality of the person doing this job has fallen quite considerably over the past few years. One indicator of this has been the number of applications from top schools - I have seen pretty weak cvs make it to the analyst level; which would not have been the case a few years ago.
On the whole I think tech provides the offer of a potentially less hierarchical, stimulating environment which has meant that a lot of talent at the junior level has headed that way. Personally I do not see it abating. Only reason I am here is for the paycheck, but as soon as I can, I will gtfo. Working with idiots can take its toll and I have lost track with the lack of intelligent senior people in banking, whole thing is a fking shitshow.
Have you ever considered FinTech VC? London is a huge hub for it. If I were you, I'd begin by reaching out to some FinTech accelerators to ask about being a mentor or something to their startups. I believe this can be done on a part time basis and you'll be able to keep your job at Goldman until you've made yourself a nice landing spot. You'll get in with all the partners at both your accelerator and large funds that your young portfolio companies meet with when they graduate your accelerator. Then, once you're in the community, a jump over to a startup will be easy.
The Goldman names gives you credibility, and you have a unique skillset from working in technology at a bank that could be extremely valuable to the right people. I'd look around at the Barclays Accelerator, I think Accenture might have one there, and Startup Bootcamp to start.
Also if you want to stay in tech, trying to lateral to firms with strong IT arms and strong IT strategy arms might be a good way to go.
In America that's Accenture, Europe it's Capgemini.
Am I the only one who thinks that this is a really easy decision for the OP to make?
I can't think of many people that would prefer software engineering at a BB over software engineering at a tech company (even a start-up) or a quantitative hedge fund. See if you know anyone at the big tech companies that can drop your resume for you; otherwise, you should cold apply anyway. It sounds like you should have the resume to easily get an interview.
I know that Google and Facebook have London engineering offices, and I can only imagine that lots of other tech companies do, too.
Wow, I have a lot of friends who are tech people. They all did a two year stint at a BB and all of them hated it. Said it was draconian. This is what they are up to now.
All of them are much, much happier and get paid the same if not more for much less hours and more freedom.
If you have the skillset, and the confidence, there should be no reason as to why you wouldn't be able to make it work.
4 reasons why I should skip finance altogether
Lloyd is hiring a lot of technology people and have them automate everything at the bank to cut operating expense. Then what? People get laid off and they will let machine run the bank. I bet several years down the road, you tour the GS headquarter and see blocks of empty cubes, they'd tell you "oh, this is where technology people USED to sit"
I had a roommate in NY a year ago who was an analyst at GS in tech, coding doing CS stuff... he hated it, echoing many of OP's sentiments, left for a tech startup and purports to be much happier now
I'm hiring if you come to New York (Fintech startup), we have another ex GS tech here.
Do you sponsor visas or hire remote?
We do sponsor. PM me you contact info
How do you work for tech with a finance degree? I'm new to this so please educate me
FinTech companies need finance people who understand the "fin" part of the "tech." So whatever you specialize in (Asset Management, equity trading, fixed income) can most likely be leveraged into a job in tech. Investors want more than people with the tech skills, they want to see people who have experience in the industry the tech is targeted towards. Remember, the people who will be using this tech will ultimately be the people in finance.
You've got a huge selection of potential exit destinations OP.
Google, FB, Microsoft, Amazon and many other high(ER) paying tech companies have London offices. You've also got all the new FinTech companies, quant hedgies like Two Sigma, DE Shaw, Citadel and prop houses like Jane Street etc.. Really, the variety is there but ultimately boils down to what your priorities are and where you'd like to see yourself.
All of the above (sans startups, but not uniformly so) will probably pay more than what you're getting at GS with less bureaucratic BS and will afford you with a more supportive environment as an engineer.
There's a difference between working as a Technology Analyst/Associate and working with technology at a BB. One is a back office role, the other can often be front office, revenue generating.
You could be competitive for those positions at those companies if you were a strategist/quantitative developer. But I'd say it's harder for those who are doing administrative tech support roles. From my experience, the level of technical ability is far different between the two groups.
You are not crazy for wanting to leave your current job. Grass is greener is as old as time.
Simple advice, do not leave GS, Goto a better opportunity!
Despite some people's comments, GS is highly sought after even in technology (for those who are in technology). So are those other new technology firms (Google, Uber, etc).
Hedge fund HF quant roles also premium. Though I will say jumping into a HF quant role from a technology guy is a big leap. Its like saying going from Bloomberg product specialist to FO IB role.
So yes, there are other roles outside of GS that are probably good roles to go to. Just be patient at GS until that time you find something really great elsewhere. Remember that however good that next role is, it will always seem better upfront than reality. Job is still work and each will have aspects that are less than idea.
What he said. FWIW, I think this is something you should talk to your manager (or whoever is in charge), and see what steps or things you can do to go into a more FO or money-generating role. I think it would be foolish for you to leave GS for something posing as, "grass is greener," simply put jobs are hard to get since finance roles are cut(?) if I am not mistaken.
a) do nothing and code/travel for a while - I know a few people who does this for a living, they make roughly 35k-100k doing projects for small-mid sized companies via front-end development and travel as they work remotely. This takes many years of experience and getting your name spread around, too. I am more of the back-end engineer, quite interesting working on database information. This gives a lot of freedom to do what you want and when, really.
or b) join a no name startup and do something fun? - I would highly advise NOT going this route. A lot of startups end up failing, and falling hard flat on the cement. There is no "fun" in starting a new project praying that you can pitch it towards an investor for cash.
Since it is election season, I'd hold off doing anything. Just remember that there are always people happily willing to replace you and it COULD be worse, but it isn't right now.
...I do have a friend at Google, keeps telling me it is an awesome place to work when I ask him about it. Getting that rock-star development role I think will help if you have connections.
There's really no point sticking it out working in the back office.
I think you know what you need to do, you're just mainly looking for affirmation. Which is not entirely a bad thing since you'd like to make sure that you're going in the right direction.
IMHO, better find something you have passion in rather than dragging your feet to work every single day.
When you say you could move to strats are you talking about becoming a core strat or a desk strat? Assuming you're talking about becoming a core strat (since the desk strat would be a weirder move coming from IT without market specific experience) you should maybe consider doing that first if you want to stay in finance even if your ultimate goal is to leave since i think the reputation benefits of being a core strat at GS are a notch or two above being in IT. I'm basing this on conversations with my friend who used to be a recruiter at two sigma and the impressions from my coworkers who used to be strats (both core and desk) at Goldman, though the latter could easily be biased and both impressions are about 4 years old at this point. Also I heard that Goldman is looking to sell sell some of their tech as a product have you considered trying to find your way onto a team like that? It might be a way to get the experience you want since presumably the tech people would be the actual revenue generators on those types of projects.
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