https://www.wsj.com/articles/suspected-shooter-at…
14 children and a teacher… committed by an 18-year old from the local high school
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What an awful thing that keeps happening in today's society.
If one more person says that shit like this "isn't a gun issue, but a mental health issue" you're just thick. Stop giving free access to fucking guns America. Jesus Christ, you've had 2 mass shootings in the space of 2 weeks. For crying out loud.
It is a gun issue and a mental health issue and we have problems with both issues.
Saw a bunch of homeless schizophrenics on the street the other day.
So great that it's impossible for homeless crazy people to get drugs in our sociey since they are illegal; otherwise, they might really ruin their lives.
While I get the analogy, if a homeless schizophrenic wants a gun in the UK, they won’t be able to get it. That’s the key difference between the US and other developed countries.
Who gives a shit what people label it as if it would stop it anyways. Deranged will still get ahold of whatever they need to act out.
It's both. And somehow America has it wrong in both cases. Maniacs can get guns and shoot at anyone (NRA have a conference in Texas in the coming days, special hosts: trump & ted cruz). And there is no proper health coverage for the mentally ill.
I'm all for firearms, but responsibly and legally. So how did this skid wind up with a pair of high dollar rifles at the illegal age of ownership that let this happen? That's not mental health and not the guns are always evil either.
Another win for Ted Cruz and Greg Abbott - had to play at home this time, but they pulled it out.
This article sums up our current gun violence issues perfectly:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-24/fourteen-kids-one-te…
He killed his grandma, gun laws wouldn't do jack in this case. That said, maybe tighten up in a bit. I think it should be state by state though
BuT gUnS DOnT KilL PeOPle; PeOPLe kiLL pEoPlE
Guns laws really should be more strict and have yearly check ups, but should not be taken away.
You should not be able to buy a gun that can easily mow down 15 people without someone intervening. Period.
We could keep shotguns and low capacity rifles as a middle ground since those have way more limited capacity to be used maliciously. But AR-15s are basically "I'm planning a mass shooting" guns. Nobody uses them for any other purpose than killing people (or "defending themselves").
Guns are really fun but there are too many mentally ill idiots and stupid people in this country to trust the general public to own a high caliber semi-automatic rifle that holds more than 2 rounds.
This but unironically. Do you think the gun just drove to this school and shot people itself? It was this piece of shit person who decided to do this. Weapons don't do anything by themselves unless a person decides to use them. This guy also shot his grandmother to death before too. Bad people will find ways to execute their senseless violence no matter what. Obviously, murder is illegal in this country. Does that stop criminals from doing it? No. So why would gun control?
The criminals will always find a way and disregard whatever gun law is on the books, while the law abiding citizens are utterly defenseless. Schools are a common target because no guns are allowed. Shooters love going to places where they know it's likely the victims will not be armed. Imagine if there was a security guard of some sort at the entrances of the school that was armed. You think this piece of shit guy would've still pulled up to do this? No way.
Despite the fact that mass shootings are heavily publicized in the mainstream media, they are still incredibly rare. 19384 people were murdered in the US by guns in 2020 (source: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-abo…). Compare that to 38,824 people dying in car crashes in 2020 (source: https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/2020-traffic-crash-data-fatalities…)
Obviously, car crashes don't have the intent of murder. However, the point is risk wise it's almost twice as likely to die in a car crash in 2020 than randomly get murdered. The media constantly brings up gun deaths which makes people think it's way more common than it actually is. I myself am hesitant to getting into helicopters despite it being statistically safer than cars because of all the stories of helicopter crashes.
Nobody should fear leaving their house and think it's likely they're going to get murdered on a given day. The facts simply do not bear this out. These events are incredibly sad obviously, and I can only pray for the families of these victims. But let's not use every mass shooting as a political event to advance gun control. Or try to claim that anybody opposed to gun control is just a heartless piece of shit that wants people to continue keep dying. That's simply not true. Let's try to focus on sending help to the people who lost loved ones instead of just arguing about politics.
Wow, I can't believe you're a taker, and straight from the NRA talking points too, good job.
Hate to break it to you, but Columbine had an armed guard. How'd that work out?
Texas is one of the (if not the) most heavily armed states. How'd that work out for those "responsible gun owners"? Not surprising they've had two of the worst mass shootings in recent history.
You are comparing deaths that cannot be easily prevented by public policy (helicopters, car crashes) to something that can be significantly mitigated through gun control.
Sure, people may still be able to get guns. Is that a reason not to make it significantly harder to acquire one illegally? Do you really think a mentally ill teenager would be able to easily acquire an AR-15 and high capacity handgun ifit wasn't legally available in the country? He either bought it legally or stole it from someone who did.
You are sitting there as kids get shot and going "oh well it's too bad there's nothing we can do about this." I don't understand how people like you exist. Fox News talking points and owning the libs are a hell of a drug I guess.
Wow, horrific. I feel like the term 'mass shooting' gets thrown around a lot when the technical definition is, I believe, four people killed? Not saying that four people being slaughtered isn't diabolic in and of itself, but it seems like the term 'mass' has been watered down in recent years.
But fourteen? Fourteen? Fucking children? Man, it truly makes my heart hurt. I grew up maybe 20-30 minutes from Sandy Hook and I remember on the day that it happened I was headed to my buddy's graduation. Such a beautiful day for him, and such a raw day for the world. The ones with kids truly break me to the core. As much as I shit on kids and how annoying they are, I cannot imagine being so full of hatred you knowing look a small and curious child in the eye, and unload the clip into them. As a gun owner myself, it also carries weight - literally. When you pick up a gun you realize how fucking heavy that trigger is, you understand the consequences that will happen if you move your forefinger one inch backward. To lack that emotion, the hesitance, the guilt, completely - I just don't know how people do it. Sociopaths, I suppose.
Regardless of where you stand on the political spectrum, I'm pessimistically confident that this will turn into a shouting match between the two parties, arguing for different things that ultimately do nothing for the families of the fourteen slain children today. I hope I'm wrong, but you never know. Gonna go have a beer for those little ones now, man this shit hurts me.
Edit: Looks like death toll has risen to 21. Keeps getting worse.
Well said, it feels really raw
This describes my feelings on the subject pretty well. As a father I cannot fathom the pain those families are in, or how much I would want the hurt the person that did this to my children.
Very mature and well-rounded take. Thanks for writing it out.
Best reply. Thanks
Americans want the freedom to do this and then pikachu face when it’s done
Already seeing the MAGAs try and paint the shooter as an illegal border crosser smh
.
Well I’m a gun owner and 2A supporter so….
Yesterday, a guy was shot on the subway in NYC and the majority of comments on a topic here were about how liberals have ruined NYC.
I remember when Columbine happened and was a complete shock to the system. Now we all just expect a school shooting to happen every year.
After Sandy Hook happened, I knew absolutely nothing would change in this country
At some point, people have to sit back and ask themselves why is the US synonymous with mass shootings amongst “first world” nations?
This should not be happening. Don't give me some BS on whether it's strictly an immigration, mental health, or gun control issue - it can be multiple issues. The US needs to get its shit together. Poor dumb people shouldn't be able to get a gun so easily and it's time we start focusing more on mental health and giving pre-emptive aid to those who need it, with or without their consent.
I shouldn't have to fucking worry about whether my little brother will have to go through this in the next few years.
Frankly, I wouldn't even send my (future) kids to school in the US unless it had a full security team, walled and monitored perimeter, full body scans at every entry point, etc. Which is exactly how schools, malls, and other large public areas operated in Kenya when I visited there. Sad how far we've fallen.
As a conservative, wouldn't mind tightening gun laws a bit - especially things such as raising the age for an AR-type weapon to say 25.
Agreed. Funnily enough, that is when they say the brain is adult...
ETA: he was still old enough to know better
Whenever there’s a phenomenon that you think should stop but still keeps going, someone is likely making a lot of money off of it.
Of course. The public school system has been siphoning off money for decades instead of giving kids a quality education and safety.
who makes money off of mass shootings except for federal law enforcement that sees their budget and powers increased
Shooter was a deranged cross-dressing troon. Expect to see more of these as the children groomed by LGBT millennial parents grow up and realize what has been done to them...and lash out accordingly.
I can only assume you are joking around with this comment.
We will see more of this in our society if we continue to fail to stand up to child abuse and sexual exploitation.
No one wants to hear you speak with some logic. Shame
I do not think that stricter gun laws would help at all. I am probably the only person on WSO who would be in favor of repealing the second amendment. How many mass shootings and murders do we have to experience to realize that having hundreds of millions of fire arms in society has had and will continue to have terrible consequences for the US. If there is no way to keep them out of the hands of dangerous people by creating new and stricter laws, making them illegal to sell or own would be the only way to improve the gun problem in the US.
There is no way that the 2nd Amendment will be repealed. It took 14 years from the time the first state ratified the 27th Amendment in 1978 to the time it reached the 38 required. The 27th Amendment is arguably one of the least controversial Amendments, and it took 14 years to get 30 states to ratify it (8 states did in the 1700/1800s). Though this is obviously a more pressing issue regarding the 2nd Amendment.
Excluding DC, the 2020 election was split 25/25 red/blue. While the split for state legislators (the people who'd ratify an Amendment) is probably not exactly that, there's no way its 38+ blue. So this is just not going to happen.
Even then, it would be pretty hard to actually collect existing guns. There is just no way GOP voters would ever go for it, and any state legislator in a red state would be voted out if they voted to ratify.
I personally do support the 2nd Amendment but not really for weapons like AR-15s except if they were only available at ranges.
I’d be fine with raising the minimum age to 25.
Me too but you'd need to actually do something about immigration for it to have the intendend positive effect.
Yes, because it would be impossible for 25+ year olds to commit gun crimes!
Def impossible for people to commit crimes without guns too!
In a nation with more guns than people, I'm sure there are some Texas Republicans on TV right now proclaiming that the solution to school shootings is just a few more guns. One Nation, Under Gun.
Most of WSO is half my age, so this won't resonate with you. But as a father of three young kids, all of whom went off to school today and came home safely tonight, I will vote for the Democrats to raise my taxes to 100 FUCKING PERCENT before I ever fucking vote for another Republican who works twice as hard to prevent CRT from entering schools than they do to prevent gunman.
Lol I was on Reddit, and some people on their main Conservative forum were seriously saying how we should arm these kids.
Preface: I support 2A and strongly believe weapons, even semi-automatic weapons, are a strong deterrent to government tyranny.
I will say that thinking about what my brain was like at 18, the age to buy guns needs to be increased, and I would support 25. You can’t even buy tobacco at 18 these days, so it is crazy to me that you can buy a gun.
For those that say it’s an AR problem, do you actually believe a shotgun or a 9mm handgun wouldn’t be just as capable? I certainly don’t want future shootings, but I’m also not sure I want to look 50 years in the future at how a corrupt government could spiral without deterrents.
I’m flabbergasted the left is now trying to say this is a gun issue and not a mental health issue. It’s clearly both, and the real question is how these people are getting so fucked up to be able to commit these atrocities. Why are we so helpless to identify people like this?
I highly doubt that armed wannabe cowboys in middle America with beer guts are deterring the prospect of American tyranny….I too am flabbergasted by the right who only see this as a mental health issue and not a gun issue when clearly it's both.In all seriousness, this happens in no other country in the world. The US doesn't have a monopoly on the mentally ill or call of duty or even lax gun control. The cadence/frequency/destruction of mass shootings in the US is uniquely American. Shameful and utterly embarrassing. I'd rather take my chances getting stabbed by a rando than caught in a hallway with a mass shooter.
The 2A has been around for hundreds of years and only in the last 20 or so has this become such a significant problem so it’s easy to see how someone could argue that coincides with a downward trend of mental health.
I’d rather be an armed civilian country in a hypothetical situation where the government oversteps its design. The other poster clearly has never studied history and actually believes checks and balances will keep him safe. Those who think America will last forever are looking through rose colored glasses. It may not happen in my lifetime, but every great empire has fallen eventually.
The cadence/frequency may be unique to america, but the crime is not. One could argue that’s because of the media access/coverage in this country that over covers and inspires other deranged to commit follow up crimes. May not be the whole reason, but it is a factor.
You can't be serious. Of course the type of weapon you have changes the damage you can do. The Las Vegas shooting wouldn't have had all those victims if that person had a shotgun or a pistol. A semi-automatic rifle able to shoot hundreds of rounds per minute with precision from distance is a huge issue. It's like saying that a machete and a Victorinox pocket knife cause the same damage because they're both knives.
I can shoot hundreds of rounds per minute with a handgun just the same as a semi automatic rifle. The only thing you’re correct about is the accuracy from a distance. Eliminating all guns is a utopian fantasy, eliminating ARs doesn’t solve the issue, maybe it saves a couple extra lives. Which has value, I won’t disagree, but it’s laughable that people try to purport that as a solution to this problem
Dude, we have moved beyond the revolutionary war mind set. We no longer need to be overly concerned about our own government doing harm to us. There is no need to defend ourselves from our own government. We have this thing called checks and balances. US citizens should have a safe place to live and not have to worry these mass shootings and other murders via firearms.
Seriously? You look at our government today and you think checks and balances is actually working? Our politicians sell to the highest bidder with absolutely 0 repercussions. And that’s on both sides.
Republicans could be offering to pass sensible gun reform, invest in mental health (tax raise!), or offer creative energy to explore novel solutions to this uniquely-American crisis?
But they won't. Instead, they'll blame video games, offer thoughts and prayers, and tell us it's "too soon" to politicize a tragedy, all while waiting for their next NRA donor check to clear.
Every single Republican politician who continues to vote against ANY gun reform has decided that it's more important to please the wanna-be cowboy "freedumb" lovers, even if that involves the twice per week trauma of an unlucky school district full of families coming home to the trauma of their kids and classmates killed or wounded.
Don't quote me the absolute death figures. I know these incidents are "rare". This is about terrorism. We still have to take our shoes off at the airport out of the fear of that one guy who failed to blow up a plane with a shoebomb. But half the country is just fine with their kids living in terroristic fear of dying at school, so long as that antiquated second fucking amendment is not infringed.
This happens every time. Ironically, Governor Abbott is speaking at an NRA conference in a few days with fmr President Trump.
Something that is not so easily accounted for is the amount of lives saved as a result of the widespread access to firearms in this country. Try to keep that in mind in the next mindless liberal argument you drum up. We need to give teachers guns. Put guns in schools.
My mother didn't get two degrees and teach special education for 35 years just to train how to use a shotgun and play Rambo in her early 60s. The fact that this is the current PREVAILING CONSERVATIVE ARGUMENT shows how far lost you all are on this issue.
The answer IS NOT, more guns. Most teachers would have no interest carrying a gun, especially in democrat states.
What do you consider to be sensible gun reform? I'm asking not to challenge, but to understand where you're coming from. Every time I've heard people say "common-sense gun laws", I tend to cringe because invariably there is some form of overreach, bad policy, or good intention/bad execution involved... or you end up with states that Giffords ranks high, like NJ, CA, and NY, which continually push legal gun owners into a very narrow band of things they can and cannot do otherwise they cross from being a legal firearm owner into a felon quite quickly. And I bring up NJ in particular because there is a law in the state senate that was amended in the assembly (or was it the other way around) that, if left as is, would mean that if a legal gun owner violated one of NJ's hypertechnical gun laws (such making a reasonable deviation to... let's say... get gas, while going to/from the gun range, gunsmith, or approved hunting grounds instead of going directly there or back) and was found in possession of a firearm, they would be held in jail without bail for possession of a firearm until they were arraigned in court. While I hope that your ideas of sensible gun reform aren't that extreme, I would love to hear them.
I rarely shoot guns and will not to pretend to be an expert on what could work. All I ever hear from the pro-gun crowd is why any proposed solution won't work, and that the ONLY solution is more guns (in a country that already has 500+ million of them). I would love for the caucus who knows the most about guns and gunowners to propose solutions that yes, minorly curtail the "free for all" 2nd Amendment interpretation.
Some things I have heard that seem reasonable
None of these restrict lawful responsible gun owners from owning these weapons. If you also oppose these, or won't even consider a automatically expiring trial period to test these laws' effectiveness, then I conclude you care more about guns than you do about keeping my kids alive.
Arm teachers!!! Someone needs to say it!
Get paid 30k a year and also have to engage with mass shooters. Should we also have them wear bullet proof vests and helmets? 6 year olds would love that
This argument is almost laughable. Most normal people would have zero interest in confronting a mass shooter.
So you would rather the 6 year old in question die than some pussy teacher refusing to protect their students? Wow incredible.
Dude, no one would want to confront a mass shooter. Please use some common sense. The only people who should confront mass shooters are police officers or other people paid and trained to protect US citizens.
Well obviously this current belief of yours isn't working to protect children, as evidenced by the shooting we are all talking about. Have some common sense please.
.
All of my friends, family and acquaintances living outside of the US are just bewildered by the easy access that people have to guns there. This will keep happening I presume till the time they enact much stricter gun control (like in the rest of the civilised world)?
In all seriousness, I know this issue has multiple angles but do people not see that the main issue is with guns? Gun reform is clearly a challenging topic, but a lower hanging fruit that a drastic revamp of the mental health system (if that ends up being part of it). Australia managed to ban guns after the Port Arthur mass shooting (35 dead) despite having a strong gun lobby and it being part of the culture. They had 13 mass shootings in the preceding 18 years, but ultimately understood that it was the right thing to do. Guns won't protect from "government tyranny" - the 2nd Amendment was written back when you had slow, bulky guns and a much simpler society. I get people like shooting guns, but do so at ranges. Rent them in a controlled environment. Why is access so easy? Do you really need them? And yes, the type of weapon you use drastically changes the damage you can do. When London went through a period of constant attacks, death tolls remained relatively low because the perpetrators had knives. If I gave you a knife and told you to attack a crowd, you could do much less damage than with a gun or semi-automatic rifle. Is there no point at which you say "even though I like guns and am a responsible owner, others fuck it up for the rest of us and cause so much damage to society that I can understand the need for a blanket ban or broad restrictions". We've done it with alcohol, tobacco and other vices in society. Why would it be any different for guns, something that has so much negativity associated with it for little to no positives?
You omit that since Australia’s ban on firearms, robbery, assault, kidnapping, and rape have all increased. It’s not a perfect solution as people want to make it out to be.
I wish we could live in a world without guns, truly. But that’s a utopia that doesn’t exist. I support making it more difficult to access and purchase guns within reason. I also support the creation of jobs and betterment of police relations by having quality cops protecting schools. We have security guards guarding important things all over the place. Why when this is suggested for schools is it suddenly called a dumb right wing answer?
Where are your stats around those crimes increasing? And was there a change in the trendline since the gun ban indicating that it was the main cause of the increase? What has been a positive since the ban is a dramatic decrease in the number of gun-related murders (non-mass shootings) and gun-related suicides. It might not be perfect, but many things point towards society being better overall without guns. Just look at the rest of Western countries.
Wrong. Read the Battle of Athens. Europe and Australia went full 1984 with mandates and surveillance that made its citizens prisoners in their own land. What a dystopian place to live over there. The second amendment isn't going away.
Plus, the second amendment had in mind the evolution of guns from muskets to much powerful ones we see today. There were already developments of multi-round and even automatic weapons during the 18th century (and used during the revolutionary war). The founding fathers knew that, and they could have always limited the types of arms people could own. Here is a video if you're interested in 18th century guns and the founding fathers
Battle of Athens was in 1946 which isn’t exactly apples to apples with the tech the gov has today. If the gov / military wanted to dominate its citizens by force it would have no problem doing so, you ain’t going to stop drones with your AR-15s.
Also Europe is dystopian and people are prisoners to their governments? Has someone from Europe ever expressed such feelings to you, or do you just repeat what you read online. I’m European and have lived there most of my life, and in most ways Europe is paradise vs the US (other than job opportunities in fields like Finance and tech). I also hardly see how having your teachers have guns and armed guards at schools would be any less dystopian than what you describe.
What I am genuinely curious about as a European is: what justification do Americans have for the fact that Germany, the UK or France have little to no school shootings? I spent some time reading the Fox News comment section yesterday out of curiosity, and the only popular solutions were: (1) guns for teachers, (2) armed guards at schools or (3) make school prison-like high-security environments - none of which are happening in Western Europe.
Isn't the lack of gun control in the US the obvious differing variable here?
Follow the money and you will find the answer. The armed teacher concept is the most asinine thing I have read here. What fucking teacher is going to want to be trained to shoot a gun and then confront a mass shooter. Unless you are a teacher who works in the south, you are not going to have any interest in using a gun at work. Teachers would quit their jobs if they had to get trained on how to confront and shoot a mass shooter
So everyone's a coward now?
To the libs on this pro-capitalism forum, we had guns since 1776 yet no mass shootings until only a few decades ago. The guns didn't change. People always carried guns. Only difference is that we were saner as a country than we are now. Makes 100% sense to call it a mental health crisis.
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