Advice (Female) men’s opinions welcome as well
Currently starting out and to be quite honest being a homemaker and living a more “soft” lifestyle seems a lot more appealing to me than 90 hour work weeks. I’ve always had a more traditional mindset and have wanted kids but know it’s unrealistic with $ and decided to work in finance for the stability after undergrad.
What has kept you in the industry (outside of comp) and do you feel like you’ve missed out on the traditional female “goals” of being the one to raise kids and work inside the house etc that friends in other industries or stay at home are able to do?
If men have any input on how they see this as a partner feel free to contribute as well.
can’t fight nature. there’s a reason there’s very few female seniors and even fewer happier ones
I strongly agree but feel some people don’t and want to hear both sides
it’s certainly possible to have a full time career and cook dinner often/have a family/be involved in your community. Anomalies definitely exist (have a few in my family actually), and in IB/PE/HF the women who are partners right now are killers. However, I don’t see many ladies nowadays in this for the long haul, and they’ll be the first to tell you that. On average, women and men just want different things out of life, and there’s nothing wrong with accepting that. FWIW, many guys would love a woman who has succeeded in a demanding career, as it helps ensure your sons won’t be wimpy bums and your daughters won’t be onlyfans “models.”
Consider why people started disagreeing with the traditional view. There's been a movement to question every foundational principle that has made our society successful . . free speech, property rights, law & order, capitalism, individual agency, family values, race neutrality . . and this movement has been clearly misguided.
And it's now being rolled back. For example look at how much ESG was a corporate buzzword two years ago, now it's almost unspeakable. Or all day on Twitter yesterday when everyone was posting Sydney Sweeney's chesty SNL appearance and saying "woke is done" . . that may have been a joke but there's a truth behind it, people are tired of the nonsense.
So I think we're getting back to common sense and you shouldn't be afraid to trust your instincts on this. Everyone should be free to pursue any opportunity they'd like. But it feels like your instincts are telling you that a certain path might work for you, and outside pressures are acting against your instincts.
Feels like it depends on your upbringing and environment. Was never told that I would need to raise my kids alone – it's a job for both husband and wife. Also graduated from a university that had at least a 45/55 ratio of girls and guys wanting to be in high finance, and was shocked when my friends at other schools told me the ratio was more like 20/80 at their's. Content with chasing career ambitions and if I feel like I'm missing out on the experience of having kids and raising them, I'll do so later in life after freezing eggs.
You should do whatever makes you happy, but you should google the survival rate of frozen eggs if you haven't already. It's close to ~20% last time I checked.
At my PE firm there's a female partner that is absolutely the definition of charisma and I want to be like her one day. I understand that's not for everyone tho and respect not wanting to sacrifice mental and physical health for that lol
The two biggest reasons for me are:
I want the lifestyle that I can afford on a dual income. I have a chef for our family, a personal trainer, house cleaners, etc., and I would prefer that they do that work rather than I. Not everyone needs these, but these tasks are important in any household (food, fitness, cleanliness), it’s just a matter of if they’re something that I have to worry about or not. My partner makes great money as well, but we can very comfortably afford things (as well as vacations, gifts, other things that are valuable to us) because I also contribute meaningfully that we otherwise may not have been able to.
Candidly, I firmly believe that I can do this work better than a lot of men. The deals, money, success are out there for the taking. I should get to take it.
I feel thankful that we have the opportunities to succeed in this industry (and the working world broadly) today in a way that women a few decades ago didn’t. Going the traditional route is fine - plenty of women are very happy with it, and maybe I’ll choose to take my foot off the gas later on. But right now, I think I have a real chance to be uncommonly successful. This life brings me happiness and pride in a way that no one can take away from me. I owe it to myself to keep pushing at that.
above is an example of the aforementioned badass (soon to be) female partner. Kudos, you guys are usually awesome to work with!
do you ever feel that you want to play more of a motherly role? bc you have others taking care of things like cooking cleaning taking after kids do you feel disconnected? genuinely curious no hate at all!
Personally, no. I see the tiring and endless work that goes into those tasks and I am thankful that I don’t have to do them.
Honestly, I think it strengthens me as a mother / lets me be more connected. I am able to spend quality time with my kids, really focusing on them and their interests instead of household tasks. I would also note that when men spend quality time with their children (doing activities with them, going through the bedtime routine together, etc.), without chores like unloading the dishwasher and taking out the trash, they aren’t considered “less connected” parents. It’s a privilege to be able to focus elsewhere, like on enjoying life with my loved ones, and I treat it as such.
I think many guys (that don’t like to be pegged by their GFs) will find this attractive, and will be totally okay with you acting like a traditional woman. There is nothing wrong with this at all, regardless of what miserable and masculine (Western) women say.
My girlfriend comes from an Asian country and she is super traditional and feminine - I love her so much for that! We really couldn’t be happier together. We complement each other very well, and I couldn’t care less that she doesn’t work in IB. Personally, I prefer that she doesn’t; I don’t wanna date a fucking man.
It’s very rare to find American women who don’t think they have bigger dicks than men.
Cheers to you!
As another person commented above: YOU CAN’T FIGHT NATURE!!
Oh no, MS from LIBTARD FEMBOYS and MANLY women!!
The thing is most libtard femboys, as you call them, don't have a need to be an asshole like you do. You are probably compensating for something. I am going to guess that you are probably ugly like a donkey's ass.
finally someone who gets it. happy for you!
Means a lot, champ!
Wishing you the best!
lol this is hilarious as someone from an Asian country. Not even close to true. All the traditional women I know are incredibly strong and aren’t the passive people you’re trying to portray them as…
Ok Ladyboy
I love my Filipina wife… my Chinese wife hates her though!
> Pretends like he is the arbiter of masculinity
> in a relationship with an asian woman
lmao
I’m a girl who loves traditionally womanly things (cooking, organizing, SOME cleaning, artsy stuff etc). However, I feel like it sounds like you’re romanticizing the homemaker lifestyle. Yes, it’s not 80 straight hours of excel, but it is harder in another way. Thinking about my mom’s life as a housewife vs her working now that her kids are older…she’s so much less stressed. Work is stressful by itself but being a SAHM is HARD. I honestly don’t know how my mom did it without going nuts, because I definitely would have. If you want to be a “soft life” kind of girl, remember that it’s 1% making sourdough aesthetically and 99% actual work and making sure you’re raising your kids well. If you’re supporting your kids wholeheartedly it won’t be substantially easier. If you screw up something in a finance job, it sucks and it may or may not affect your career. If you screw up parenting that’s a real life that you’re affecting negatively. I want to be in finance and be an active parent, so I totally get the struggle of wanting both so badly. But remember it’s really not a soft life, just a different one. I also come from a very collectivist culture, so the burden on mothers is greater than I think would be on a more individualist family. The thing that has always stuck out to me is that all the women in my family (which range from traditional grandmothers to top 1% workers) have always told me to get a job even if you want a family. Granted I do have family that would be very willing to help out, but idk… I just don’t want to sacrifice my career. I think I can do both given the familial support I have, which I am very lucky to have.
I don't follow "if you screw up parenting that's a real life you're affecting." You're responsible for your kids' upbringing whether you do it yourself or outsource it to a nanny. So the pressure is there either way.
On the contrary, 'screwing up' as a parent is likely big things, not little things like forgetting to pack the kid a good lunch or missing a few baseball games.
Also, making your kids your world and suffocating them with praise and attention is also screwing them up
Long story short dont stress about it because there will always be something to stress about
Male here. Look it really just depends what you want to do. The whole upper-middle class brainwashing in college is you MUST do BB IB or MBB consulting, then MBA, then something else like PE or whatever, but there are plenty of ways to make money, and there's no rule that you have to do any of this. It's a free country and you really don't need to explain yourself to anyone if you want to back away from IB. Plenty of ways to have a fulfilling life without it.
lol wtf, ive never come across a woman who's so shameless as to debase herself by saying "oh totally agree!!" to a loser with a vocabulary that he got off 4chan.
is it just me whose worst nightmare it is to get married to someone whose ambitions are on the floor? i could never be with a housewife; no ambition, no goals, no mind. what the fuck do you even talk about with someone like that?
God.
Hey man,
Not everyone is gay or bi-curious like you. Some of us prefer being with significant others that do not remind us of our coworkers. That’s totally fine and no need to shame OP for that.
Not every girl wants to be an IBD MD or PE GP. Maybe you’d know if you actually talked to some. Doesn’t seem like you do.
Hopefully one day you can stop licking your VP’s balls lol
If you have all day every day free, you can learn a lot of interesting things. on opposite, if you're working 100h per week every week, all you know is your job and all you can talk about is your job. and I hope you don't wanna talk finance with your girl in a couple of hours of free time you get after work.
there's more jobs than just working in finance
This is just why most women who start off super ambitious usually end up moderating on this by late 20s as the baby bug bites. Makes sense honestly, obviously you do you if you want to put career as #1 -- everyone has their own freedom to choose. Or vice versa
As a kid who grew up with a mom as a homemaker, I had a wonderful childhood which I know most kids who had both parents in higher powered careers did not get. My mom though has always said in the modern era, she wishes she had worked at least some white collar job to just have a sense of reassurance. Putting this together, if you're not balls-to-the-wall on career (which IMO is great and exactly what I'd look for in a partner, among other stuff) the I'd recommend you do something with reasonable hours (i.e. 40hrs a week or even less). Maybe like being a teacher, marketing professional, engineer at a chill firm, etc. Even if it's just part-time (substitute teaching maybe) just to have something
Just an anecdote but I know of an alum from my school (woman) who is a group head and took a ~3 year sabbatical during her VP years after she gave birth and came back to the same bank afterwards
The options for women are not only stay at home versus 90 hour per week. There are many jobs in investments that are not nearly as intense as investment banking. You could work on the buyside and do 50 hours per week.
I'm still a ways away from family planning but have started listening to more research on the subject of parenthood from the perspective of modern working professionals and have found Lila Rose to have some fascinating guests on. This is an episode I recently listened to which I think you'll find interesting OP - covers the importance of the mother's presence in the first 3 years of a child's life, the impacts falling back onto nannies/daycare, and the knock-on effects childhood separation anxiety has on children (particularly in the west) with the rise of conditions like ADHD and clinical depression that result in kids being medicated earlier and earlier. The first and most helpful commenter above is right though - very few female seniors and of the ones that are, very few happy ones (subjective to your definition of happy I suppose). Not to say it can't be done, but the pool of successful examples is quite small.
Hey - I am a guy, and I think I have some perspective to share
Both my girlfriend (Hopefully fiancee soon!) and I are 27 and looking to start a family in the next 2-3 years. I work as a Quant in a big bank in Toronto, and she works as a software engineer. One of the main things we agreed on, knowing that we both work full time jobs, is that raising a child is a shared responsibility and we should both commit equal time (as much as we accurately can)...not only because we want to help each other out, but because we would like to spend as much time with each other as a family
The second thing we discussed is where we want to live - We are currently in Toronto, and while we love downtown, we opted to buy a big-ish townhouse uptown that is a 15-20 minute subway ride to downtown in order to have more space for our pets and future family. I think its key to choose a city that's family friendly and also has good job prospects; we didn't see ourselves being able to start a family in NYC, although Chicago seemed like a much, much, better option.
Having family close by - its very important as they would help us raise our child(ren) and are probably god-tier when it comes to all the do-s and do-nots with having a baby, and that is why we picked Toronto...half of my family and all her family live here, with the other half of my family being in NYC
Last but not least, we are both fortunate that we work in companies where we don't have to go beyond regular working hours (8:30 to 5) for the vast majority of the year...we also work from home 2 days each. I think being in a city/country that has good WLB is key; some people might view it as "career suicide" to move from NYC to another city in NA, but at the end of the day...it's what you value in life, and I personally think there is more to life than money!
I hope some of the experiences I posted above are relevant/helpful!
As someone whose mother worked in finance, I think I could answer this. My mother is my absolute role model. I've never told her this, but seeing her work that hard and break so many patriarchal barriers especially in an Asian country made me want to work hard in life. I look at how much she has achieved, her entire education costs less than a flight ticket to where I currently live (and I live here because she made enough money to give me the opportunity to study abroad at a great school). I want to accomplish as much as she did, because she did so much. She worked insane hours because she was in IB and not the buyside, but she never missed a school play or a parent teacher meet, even after she became the sole breadwinner. And she is so so smart as well. You can talk to her about basically anything and she will have a calculated, well-read opinion. Not sure if it's representative, but these things come with being in a field like finance. She has certainly motivated me to never back down, to keep pushing till I achieve my goals. Coming from a family where she had nothing, she built everything for herself and that's helped me realise I never need to rely on a man or anybody else to give me the things I want from life.
I'm not saying your children won't think this about you as well. This is just the influence my mother has had on me :) (it's obviously also not been a bed of roses, I did feel sometimes like she could have been home more, but as I get older I realise it was for the right reasons and the bond is still strong)
I would like to add though that she often told me that I would make a great consultant, which I now realise was her way of calling me stupid.
Good commentary, In general and on some level, I think a kid is going to feel good about their parent's accomplishments. This is not going to be something they think about often, because you are still mainly mom or dad. I am not sure if I could say the same thing about a kid whose parents do not work. As a kid, you mainly would think of them as a parent who does not work and takes care of the home and me. I do not think kids are so deep in thought to be thinking about how a stay at home parent might have added value to their childhood. Later on in life, the kid might appreciate it more, though.
I agree. I definitely think I have learnt much much more from my mother (even though she was home less) than some of my friends whose mothers stayed home. Especially for daughters, I think it's very important for them to see a working, independent mother. I will admit, that I do take on extensive pressure now because I often forget that in the future I will potentially have a dual income home, with multiple sources of income and multiple ways to have the life I want. But this may be specific to my own circumstances. This pressure was never put on me by my mother, it is induced because I want to work hard and do as well as she has.
Sometimes the opposite happens. Since my mother was raised middle class, I was as well. Didn't realise what IB and that money meant till I got to the 11th grade. Grew up going to a relatively economically diverse school, and many many of the poshy kids didn't give a shit about working hard. So i guess it could go either way. But the poshy kid living off their parent narrative has nothing to do with a mother being in finance (it's usually the dads, with moms who stay home and buy luxury products off of their husbands' money)
When you choose to be a homemaker you are selecting to not diversify your risk. A lot of girls I work with will tell you they are doing these crazy hours because they’ve seen their mothers divorce after 10 years left with nothing, no ability to support the kids financially or a CV to return to work with. And it’s not like being a single mother at an advanced age positions you well on the dating market.
Ultimately it’s a risk you decide if you want to take. Traditional roles worked because there used to be stigma around divorce. Think about it, nobody’s base case when they get married is to get divorced - but check the statistics.
You also make it sound very binary as if women only have the option to work IB hours or be SAHMs.
There is a Netflix documentary series on babies and one of the episodes covers parental love. It goes to show that based on research it’s not your gender that determines the bond, it’s the amount of time spent together. If having strong bonds with your children gives your life meaning, by all means go all in, but don’t feel obliged because of your gender. There is no right way to set family dynamics - it is individual to every couple and the most important part is that you are both on the same page about expectations around this.
If she goes SAHM route and marries a breadwinner then she would still get a lot of assets and an income stream post divorce, but you are right that it's a big risk (wanting to be a mom and focusing solely on career is also a big risk).
To your point though it isnt binary at all. Anyone talented and disciplined enough to work in IB can also work at a smaller shop, in a less front office role, work at some F500 doing M&A or whatever, and work 40-50 hours a week pulling in 200k+. Or if even less Im sure she can still make six figures in a remote position for a non-demanding role that could really balance SAHM duties
I have a lot of friends and peers who live good, upper-middle class lives where the wife is either SAHM or works part-time making little. Most of them dont work big wig finance jobs. They have good, solid jobs but nothing overly competitive.
There are many more options here than OP likely thinks
I agree. Most educated people do not want to be 100% dependent on a spouse, male or female. If a marriage does not work out, the person who does not work, might end up with a not so good life style. A pretty high percentage of low income people are single mothers.
Not everyone goes into a marriage with a financial hat on :)
It's important to realize at your age that being sold 'you can have it all' is a giant lie. You are smart and driven enough that almost anything you want out of life you can acieve, but there are going to be tradeoffs. Come to terms with that now, and save yourself frustration down the line. Women are espcially neurotic compared to men, and many women will be in their 30s and 40s trying to balance being a perfect parent, spouse, and employee only to set themselves on fire to keep everyone else warm - which some may say is selfless, but in reality those people werent even cold to begin with.
In terms of your desires think what you want:
- how badly do you want to live in NYC?
- how high do you want to climb in corporate ladder?
- What do you want as part of a upper class, upper middle class, or even just middle class lifestyle?
- what do you need in a partner? Not what you think you want but what do you actually need.
- How badly do you want kids, and what kind of life do you want for them?
You have to ask yourself and seriously think about all these big life questions to give yourself clarity and confidence on the decisions you will be making. You sound worried about needing a high finance job to have financial security and children. That is 100% a complete myth, probably developed by your immediate surroundings (NYC very high COL) and peers (which, if you keep climbing will only be more affluent and come from wealthier backgrounds so you will never feel like you have 'enough'). You can provide a very nice UMC life on a 40 hour work week job or hell even as a stay at home mom with the right partner. Will that be the same as your childless career driven wallstreet peers? No. But they are making their own sacrifices too - and hopefully are emotionally intelligent enough to prioritize what makes the most sense for their own values/lives
Lots of insights into motherhood and marriage from the 17 year olds on this site, I see.
Anyhow, I agree with financeabc & primemeridian23 - the options aren't purely working 12-16 hour days or being a housewife. There are plenty of less dramatic middle grounds.
My wife works her ass off, makes great money, and doesn't even come close to those hours. When we have kids, I imagine she will work a bit less, but she says she has no interest in quitting and I'm certainly not going to pressure her to.
Also, just about every commenter aside from the OP is a male. How does an educated male finds a educated female who wants to stay at home? Why waste all of your time getting good grades at good schools, if you are going to stay at home anyway. That would be such as waste of time and money.
I have two friends who are this. One is in medicine that made it up there but now is a SAHM and the other is a PhD Mathematician who is also a SAHM. It has to deal more with situation versus how one feels.
Dated a few lawyers/bankers/doctors (women), lifestyle and such it can work, but the support needed would be a lot (nannies, cleaners, etc.). I would be for it, just need to figure out a solution to make it work. Doable, but pushing it to the limit.
FWIW, I have friends who are like this. I get to listen to their advice and input too.
Feel free to PM if you want to ask anything.
I don't think anyone likes 90 hour weeks. Speaking as a industry outsider who enjoys investing as a hobby, it seems like very few of you are happy in general, much less women specifically.
feminism exist to allow women to choose, not to push them into one direction. Labeling that a women should be a housewife or the opposite that she should be career-driven si non-sense. Different personalities among women will base what they end up doing.
Personally, I think you can have a family also with a modest salary. The "financial security/comfort" that some people around here seek is purely mental, not real. Look at the rest of middle class families how they are happy despite never having even heard about what is Wall Street
Do your best to start saving money early, so you have the flexibility to pivot later. (Partner too) My wife loves her career, but took a WFH job with fewer hours while pregnant. The slight pay cut is totally worth it for us. She's no tradcon, but making dinner for your husband and child can be more rewarding than making a spreadsheet for a boss who doesn't care about you.
Might be controversial, but I think it's crazy for any woman to aspire to be solely a homemaker. In the past, the situation was different and women didn't have equally easy access to higher education as men, the same was for jobs, so women were naturally seen as housewives while the men was a provider. However, when their husbands turned out to be cheaters or aggresive alcoholics, they didn't have much choice and usually decided to stay with them no matter what because they were unable to survive on their own.
Nowadays, women have equally easy access to higher education as men (in the Western world, at least) so getting a proper education and a stable job is rather a safety cushion if the husband turns out to be a cheater/alcoholic/you name it. Of course, now a woman in their 40s/50s can still find some very basic admin work with no prior work experience but I don't think she would be able to provide for herself and kids. Of course, there is also a posititive scenario that your husband is great and nothing bad happens, but do you think you would really be happy doing nothing intellectual and just takig care of your home? For intellectual types, this will become boring sooner or later. Source: my mother decided to be a homemaker at some point which hasn't been a good choice for her mental health
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