Affirmative Action Is Racist. (Change My Mind)
I am not sure if my views are old-fashioned or just purely wrong. I am an asian and I was raised to believe that affirmative action is racist. I never thought I would receive backlash from these views because I didn't think they were that controversial.
However, when I tell some of my more left-leaning friends that I disagree with affirmative action, they either call me biased because I'm asian or hint that I'm a racist and keep their distance from me.
Are my views actually bad?
If I share this opinion in my workplace, could it negatively impact my career? (We talk about politics a lot. I try to stay out of it, but many times they drag me into the discussion.)
Don't voice it because it's a racist opinion. Affirmative action helps minorities. Get woke!!
You would go to IU Kelley
This guy is clearly a troll.
It IS by definition racist. I don't think anyone with half a brain-cell has ever tried to debate that; however, some people think it's a necessary evil and that's the opinion that is usually debated. (and no, never bring it up in a work setting, can only hurt you)
It's not racist, it helps minorities who are punished by the system. It's racist to call affirmative action evil or disagree with it.
Don't bring that up but I can assure you that many liberals don't agree with aa either so chill out on the generalization
Real liberals agree with affirmative. Anyone who disagrees is a trump lover and should be cancelled.
Of course it is racist. Asian kids get fucked over.
Not true, it helps minorities et woje!!!
Don't be a doid, racism has a structural component that we can't just throw around willy nilly. As an Asian I can empathize with your struggle, but diversity is a positive good both in society and the workplace and these firms are being proactive to fix the relative lack of it historically.
Additionally, the whole AA sucks crowd is generally butt-hurt upper middle class White/Asians who only bitch about meritocracy the second that underrepresented minorities actually are the ones recieiving an advantage. White people in particular have so much structural advantage built in and often fail to recgonize this. Things never were meritocratic, so lets not complain that they are not just because a poor URM got the seat instead of some underqualified legacy who doesn't draw nearly as much ire.
I agree with most of your statement, but why should a rich black kid's son get an advantage over a middle class white/asian solely based on race.
Shouldn't it be based on income or social barriers instead?
And how are whites more advantaged because of race? Asian americans make more money than whites on average.
Yeah I think you might have forgotten to switch accounts bud
Okay, if the goal of AA is to cater to those with disadvantaged backgrounds that's fine, but then why is assistance distributed racially as opposed to those who are economically disadvantaged? It doesn't make any sense to say differential treatment based on race alone isn't racist.
It's fine to think it's good or necessary under your own personal ethical framework but you can't also relieve yourself of the moral burden of using a wrong to right a wrong.
I agree in an ideal world our approach would be more considerate of economic brackground. I know poor overrepresented students who deserve these same targeted efforts. That is the ideal and firms should work to move in that direction. However I also think race matters in this issue, and even rich African Americans are exposed to biases in places like the work place that others, including rich and poor white people simply don't face. AA tries to alleviate this in a proactive way, and I feel those steps can be neccessary.
I love how you consider it being "butt hurt" when the reason somebody is denied admission is because of the color of their skin. I also love how you claim just because things weren't meritocratic in the past, the shouldn't be now either.
To assume that the URMs who get in are "poor" is such a misleading thought. There are plenty of rich URMs at Andover/Exeter who will be given an advantage because of it that they don't need. If you really wanted to help, then a better system would be socioeconomic. Why should a rich Black kid be given an advantage over some poor inner city Asian kid?
If colleges extended the admissions timeline to more accurately determine an applicant's struggles in life, we wouldn't need to consider race as a generalization. The current system of just giving URMs a blanket advantage due to their race is nothing but pure laziness and virtue signaling.
And Asians are held to a higher standard than white people. There was Princeton study a while back showing that being Asian is like having 50 points taken off your SAT compared to a white applicant. Affirmative Action isn't just URMs getting an advantage, ORMs are actively hurt in the process.
You'd never say that a URM is "butt hurt" about getting rejected because they have a lower test score and didn't meet the qualifications under a race-blind system, so why is it okay to say the same about an ORM who gets rejected for the sole reason of their race despite meeting all the other qualifications of a competitive applicant?
I'm was a poor white guy who interned at my T30's admissions office for work-study, so I can tell you from experience that being URM is used as nothing but a blanket generalization in college admissions.
I hope my above reply clarifies on the socioeconomic point. In essence, there is always going to be a racial component in discrimination until we live in a post-race society, which we clearly don't right now. I view AA as a way to correct some of these structural disadvantages, but I think execution should obviously be more focused on those underpriveleged in the first place. My point ab being butthurt was that in these conversations I have, so often the case is that people think that their seat was taken by an unqualified URM. While I am sure that has happened, minority candidates who are competetive are just as good as others, and have often, but not always, been subject to additional barriers which AA attempts to fix. Viewing things as a zero-sum game is reductive.
Jesus.. One of the biggest problem in society nowadays is the total lack of critical thinking. Yes I am pointing at you, do you even hear yourself?
I'm curious where you think I lack critical thinking? Evidence suggests diversity is a net good and while it may suck for others to have a disadvantage you may not, these efforts are broadly made to right the generations of structural wrongs in this country.
diversity is literally not a positive good anywhere in society or the work place
can you name one positive about diversity that isnt food or music?
Theres is tremendous consensus in the business and social science community through dozens of research studies indicating that firms with diversity have better outcomes, and that diverse groups are more succesful in a variety of factors. Being ignorant of this relays a twisted worldview if you can't see the benefits of being exposed to new backgrounds.
Article highlighting some of these points: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/04/business-case-for-diversity-in-t…
The fact that "things were never meritocratic" isn't a reason to keep it that way lol.
I feel you, my broader point is that we oftentimes advocate for meritocracy when it is personally beneficially and it is not the end all be all. If say College were only based on test scores every top school would look like CalTech, and imo thats also not ideal.
Of course it’s racist. If it’s not then every NFL team should have at least 5 Asian players but it never works that way
Most people think the way you do behind closed doors- ie with friends and family. Yes affirmative action is racist, yes it systematically disadvantages certain groups of people, yes it is a problem in our society. Rest assured, affirmative action will only make matters worse- as have all of these social programs/systems throughout society.
Lol you are soooo wrong, you probably think capitalism is good. Social programs and socialism in general are a great thing.
Vote Biden 2020 with me because he will increase those social programs unlike trump. We will defeat Trump the white supremacist and BLM will WIN!!
How much you guys wanna bet this dude is Richard
It's obviously racist. Unfortunately, just about every part of this country is run by the left, as well as the losers who work in HR. Besides bonding with others over your hatred over it, spending any time thinking about it won't do anything for you. When I am in a position to have input over future hires, I definitely plan to give preference to white and Asian males to make up for the fact that they have possibly been shafted for college and other internships in favor of someone else because of their race and sex.
Dude independents and conservatives are racist overall. Some are good, but the majority are racist and unfair. Democrats and BLM want to improve life for minorities. Please vote Biden 2020.
Former U.S. Vice President Joe Biden once said he didn't want his kids to grow up in a "racial jungle" in regards to desegregation.
Biden tells African American radio host: ‘You ain’t black’ if you have trouble deciding between Trump and me
"I'm told Chuck Graham, state senator, is here. Stand up Chuck, let 'em see you. Oh, God love you. What am I talking about. I'll tell you what, you're making everybody else stand up, though, pal." (Talking to a guy in a wheelchair)
"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man." (Talking about obama)
"In Delaware, the largest growth of population is Indian Americans, moving from India. You cannot go to a 7-11 or a Dunkin' Donuts unless you have a slight Indian accent. I'm not joking."
Holy fucking shit I hate HR. I work for a BB that has a diversity sophomore program. There was this one Asian kid from my school who networked heavily with me and others in my group. A friend I have in the group and I tried pushing his resume for an interview, but we were shut down due to those stupid power-tripping fucks at HR. An MD (also an alum) in my group was super annoyed as well.
Anyway, the kid is definitely going to get an interview (probably a superday) this year.
I feel so bad for that kid.. no matter what he did he wasn’t going to get an offer- so much for a meritocracy
Bro as an intern who equally hates AA, the counter to racism isn't more racism man. I think the best thing you can do is to try to be fair and unprejudiced in your own life, not to become what you hate
That's not the answer mate. But good to know you feel this way.
guys guys guys. we’re all here. we all made it into the hallowed halls of finance. we’re all gonna be mega loaded. let’s not worry about silly things like affirmative action. we’re now in the legacy / development candidate zone baby. AA on steroids. so yeah what if we’re white and Asian and get screwed over by AA. it sucked but it’s over now. NOW our kiddos will get 3-100x the preference an AA kid will get by their legacy status and/or dev candidate status depending on how much you guys bank over the next 25 years. we’re above this now ;)
Personally, I've talked about how dumb the sophomore diversity program is at my BB with a few other bankers on my team (friends) and one MD who stated his view first.
Generally though, I would just keep it to yourself.
Not that I’ve even graduated yet and have any experience on this matter, but ur playing with fire... All it takes is one person who disagrees with you or someone overhearing a convo.
I would only speak about AA with guys I’m absolutely certain share the same opinion and have known for several years..
It’s a shame I have to go anonymous to post even this today
it’s not racist— anyone who says it is does not understand racism beyond the definition in the dictionary. Affirmative action is a band aid for a much larger issue of systemic inequality that (whether grumpy WSO bros want to admit to or not) HOLDS minorities and women back from routinely reaching elite spaces— such as high paying, historically white and male, jobs in investment banking.
Racism is more than just “I dislike someone because of the color of their skin”. that is the elementary school definition— College aged adults must understand that racism is a structural social hierarchy with a history that dates back to the colonial era where race science was invented.
The American education system is racist. Beauty standards and popular media is racist. The healthcare system is racist. The housing crisis is racist. Our voting system and electoral is college is racist. The criminal justice system is ding-ding-ding— you got it, racist! The point is here racism is much bigger than just the interpersonal, and any analysis that aims to truncate it into those terms is always going to be disingenuous.
It’s easy for me to try and shit on finance major WSO bros who likely stay far away from the social sciences and only have a tip of the ice berg understanding of such a complex socioeconomic phenomena. I’m not in the business to do that or to write my honors thesis on an online forum post. The point is, affirmative action is a haphazard attempt to alleviate the compounding effects of structural and generational racism by cherry-picking a few of the bright minority candidates that happened to make it as far as that elite school or wherever they’re plucked from for these IB jobs.
It’s not a fucking perfect science because no quota system can fix the ailments of a government that exploited and largely neglected an entire sector of their population. So, I’m sorry if you’re offended that 10 out of 50 spots go to affirmative action candidates instead of some white guy (yes, you still have privilege even if you’re poor — sorry) or some Asian guy. You guys have enough spots, it’s okay if you don’t get one banking gig— just use white affirmative action cough nepotism. cough.
Watcha gonna do when SCOTUS bans AA? SFFA vs Harvard.
Do you really think admissions officers just put minorities in a randomizer and pick a fixed number of them to admit or?? Your first mistake is assuming that Affirmative action admits are somehow inherently less qualified than their legacy counterparts.
Can you cite any evidence for the systemic racism?
Of course! Here’s a list of terms you can google and read all about. Plenty of world renowned historians, politicians, economists, and sociologists have written tons of books/articles about:
-Redlining -Gerrymandering -Mass Incarceration, For Profit Prisons (& free prison labor) [Look up the 1984 Crime bill that treats cocaine and crack cocaine WAY differently...it’s the same thing, but yknow don’t do drugs kids] -School to prison pipeline -Voter suppression -History of the American police force (they evolved from slave patrols Tuskegee syphillis experiment — Medical racism, trend of using Black people for experiments (history buffs! can you name something happening right now that may sound similar? ) -Colorism (granted, this one is more abstract for the liberal arts majors out there)
this is all that comes immediately to mind right now, but don’t worry there’s PLENTY more of it! mind you people dedicate entire phD dissertations to this stuff, so don’t feel too overwhelmed if it seems like a lot. God speed.
Beauty standards racist? Dude I can't control what gets my dick hard.
missed the point, getting hard for a specific type of chick is not the same as media branding one type of chick as beautiful while completing ignoring the other chick or denying that she has enough beauty to be marketed as
Damn y'all are toxic as hell & I hope quite a few of you never have to make decisions for anyone else other than yourself at any point
You obviously don't know how recruiting works.
A lot of the arguments against AA is that diversity candidates are less 'qualified' compared to your average white boy. If you're smart enough to be at a good college and maintaining a good GPA, you are smart enough to be an investment banking analyst. All the information and modelling Chad has learned from his dad, or on his online finance courses, the bank can teach you very easily in a matter of weeks. This is why being less qualified doesn't matter at all in the big picture and HR are very aware of this. They teach you everything you need to know about investment banking in the intense analyst training when you start. What they can't teach you is how to stop being a moaning lil bitch who thinks the world is out to get him. Our world is built on racism, sexism, homophobia etc and although AA isn't perfect, it is a step in the right direction.
cringe
shut up you NIMBY piece of shit, you have no idea what "black behavior" truly is. you just met token blacks
what?
bringing up affirmative action at work has no possible upside whatsoever
change my mind
Why do people feel so inclined to discuss politics at work? I never understood this.
I think it's mostly #3. people don't know how to really get to know someone with thoughtful, open ended questions, and since everyone has opinions on politics, it's a default when theres silence in the air
WSO: Affirmative action is the most racist thing ever since slavery and let’s unqualified people in.
Also WSO: Yea I got my BB job cause my dad is an MD at a tiny, insignificant boutique (think Imperial Capital, B. Riley, Moelis), we really need meritocracy in IB recruiting.
Sad to see a bunch of sorry white and asian fellas upset that ONE analyst position didn't go to them. Like damnit right? Why can't we represent 100% of the employees?
Hold on while I get my mini violin...
AA is racist.
Deleniti alias et neque reprehenderit. Voluptatibus architecto asperiores aliquam qui animi aut ex. Cupiditate culpa quasi dolores quibusdam et. Impedit eos voluptas animi. Quis aspernatur harum enim sint. Eveniet ipsum consequatur id in earum expedita. Et laboriosam nobis natus ut cum commodi.
Ipsam sed alias eaque minima consequatur culpa. Consectetur et expedita aliquam temporibus exercitationem dolorem possimus. Repellat voluptatem dolores distinctio et adipisci possimus saepe. Quia aliquid distinctio quos ut doloremque.
Omnis qui aspernatur in error. Aut molestiae porro doloremque. Provident architecto in distinctio eaque amet consequuntur modi.
Qui numquam excepturi dolor veniam beatae. Nihil ut ea praesentium tempora. Repellat odit commodi officiis odit. Harum vero assumenda nesciunt voluptates omnis. Facere sit debitis molestiae unde omnis accusamus repellat.
See All Comments - 100% Free
WSO depends on everyone being able to pitch in when they know something. Unlock with your email and get bonus: 6 financial modeling lessons free ($199 value)
or Unlock with your social account...
Non expedita velit quae enim. Ipsam non placeat officia et vitae porro. Voluptas praesentium quasi odio odio.
Sed et cum qui. Fugit unde et aut aperiam et laboriosam. Dolorem repellat magnam laborum vitae vero est et. Amet architecto in aperiam.
Cupiditate quia qui iste in sint. Iste voluptas mollitia aut impedit optio unde sapiente qui.
Magni nesciunt repellat quibusdam rerum delectus est nemo. Perspiciatis iure dolores quos voluptate fugit.
Reiciendis beatae aliquam enim qui. Quia aut officia error quia magni. Id omnis hic vel est odio. Sint doloribus nihil enim animi velit. Ipsam dolorem explicabo repellat quam. Voluptas omnis ut quas ut et dignissimos.
Quibusdam vero doloribus deleniti. Dolorem labore optio dolores libero cumque qui. Facere occaecati ut sunt dolor minima dolor officiis. Maxime perspiciatis rem autem inventore voluptas.
Quidem molestias non illum possimus labore aperiam. Illum reprehenderit quis repellendus autem voluptatem laudantium ut. Quidem velit ut cupiditate sunt animi nisi. Ad impedit ipsum asperiores voluptatem et nesciunt assumenda. Tempore et sapiente aut cumque sapiente aliquid eius. Ad quos consequuntur minus beatae dolorem saepe.
Eius velit labore aliquid earum porro sit. Qui rem sit perferendis qui dolorem et. Nulla amet ea ullam aut.
Exercitationem reprehenderit autem ut cum non rem sint. Voluptatibus nihil commodi veniam alias quo animi et.
Laudantium ut non odio nihil qui impedit. Magnam quos aut quos et vero error laboriosam.