Thoughts on Taliban completely taking over Afghanistan?
It's common knowledge that in the history of Afghanistan no one has ever been able to conquer it. With the US fully withdrawn from the area and pulling all US personal out of the embassies, the Taliban quickly seized control and are now the dominant force in Afghanistan. Was wondering to hear people's thoughts, especially any vets on the site. 20 years of warfare and it seems like everything was wiped away in an instant.
Close friend of mine is a marine and did his combat tour back in 2011 in Afghanistan and he's just absolutely pissed at the situation. Figured this would be an interesting topic to open up.
I don't know why we even try to help these goofy Arabs. Every time we help one of their shithole countries make progress, these desert fucks cause a ruckus and overthrow their government to replace it with something worse. Look what happened way back then in Iran. It was the most prosperous country in the Middle East in the 70s, and one of the most prosperous countries in the world. Booming economy, beautiful women didn't have to wear ninja outfits, and the people were free to be devout Muslims or secularists. And then... the Iranians overthrew the Shah and welcomed Ayatollah Khomeini and his oppressive rule. All the prosperity they once had was gone within a year. Just so they could spite America. Once again, we see foolish Arabs supporting a brutal, oppressive movement come to power, as if they forgot what happened from 1996-2001. This is what they want, I guess. Fuck them.
Neither are Afghanistan nor Iran are Arab countries. I use the term "country" here quite loosely by the way.
Also while I understand and partially agree with your points, Iran is quite literally the opposite situation of the argument you're trying to pose. Their sphere of influence and goals are likewise contradictory to the groups I think you have in mind i.e "1996-2001"
I made this comment on the other thread but this site has a lot of people very focused on their careers and work with long hours (no blame at all, it's more important in the grand scheme of things) so they can't make cogent or relevant arguments when it comes these situations. If you try to squeeze politics into an already busy life, you will come across as uninformed and end up regurgitating talking points from the last decade that are not really fresh takes in the discourse anymore.
Simply put, yes we shouldn't be actively involved in nation-building in the region in the first place. Although I hardly think there were any intentions to "help" to begin with unless you buy into the debunked Bill Kristol "but, the women can freely go to school now!" argument.
However, above it all, and I'm happy to dive into any points further, I'll leave you with a point I made in the other thread:
Understand that all US foreign policy decisions in the Middle East over the last 20 (and quite frankly 70) years have been predicated on maintaining the security of a foreign power that continues to disobey and spit on the face of Americans through dragging disillusioned and brainwashed young men into never-ending conflicts that are PARADOXICAL to our OWN nation's interests. We continue to serve as the air-force of the VERY SAME people who launched the largest attack of terror on our nation in history, while conveniently having aggression towards those who intend to counter those very same people. Understand the two broad forces at play in the Middle East and their incentives and interests and things will click far easier I promise you.
I actually think Iran is a country in the sense that there is unity among the people despite it being made up of 6 (I believe?) different ethnic groups. Though I do think that the US along with the remainder of the West does not want stabilization in the Middle East. It's definitely in the best interests of the US to have constant conflict in that region as it gives them a reason to keep a foot in the area.
Iran is most definitely not the opposite of 1996-2001 groups. Their sphere of influence is decently legit and their curruption sets the tone for a lot of the middle east.
Yeah I was about to say that neither Iran nor Afghanistan is Arabic but the user above me already made that point. On the one hand I get it, the people themselves aren't fully against the Taliban and probably still view them as the Mudjahadeen fighters from the Soviet Invasion. But what about the fact that the Taliban will now just further ramp up heroin production and keep pushing it into the US and other parts of the world? I don't think it's just a war on terror issue but also a war on drugs as well resources issue. The country is rich with minerals after all. Though I have a feeling that Russia will mobilize and move into the region in the near future. A part of me thinks that Russia has also been aiding the Taliban from the beginning as a means of payback for the CIA intrusion in the 70s. Though if Russia invades, they definitely won't have a "rules of engagement" policy.
Opium and heroin production under Taliban was actually among the lowest and it skyrocketed after Americans took control. So your drug argument is not rooted in fact
its called hijab
Educate yourself on US interventionist policy. The US played a part in the overthrow of the democratically elected prime minister of Iran in the 1950s, and has meddled in the affairs of other countries since, including Afghanistan during the Soviet-Afghan war.
Yeah I know. But the Shah's rule was still magnitudes better than anything that came after it. His reforms brought the greatest period of prosperity that modern Iran had ever seen. Educated Iranians who studied overseas actually returned to Iran for employment. It was called reverse brain drain. Now it's the other way around. Nearly every Iranian regrets toppling the Shah's rule, but alas, it is too late now. The Ayatollah is ruling with an even greater iron fist. There is nothing the Iranians can do at this point.
You know 20 years before that, the CIA and MI6 overthrew a democratically elected prime minister in a military coup and installed a Shah back in power to protect U.S. oil interests and prevent nationalized oil fields?
NO SHIT IRANIANS ARE GONNA HATE AMERICANS AFTER THAT, THIS DIDNT JUST COME OUT TO NOWHERE
i don’t know much about Iran but I would assume it was a strong extremist minority which used the West as a scapegoat to take power, kinda how the nazis used the Jews, not actually the majority of the country.
Yeah I know that. Still a foolish move to overthrow the man that brought about the greatest period of prosperity in modern Iranian history.
Lmao @ all these people coming out of the woodwork saying "So this was all for nothing then, all these lives and money?"
No shit, that's what the libs tried to tell you for the last 20 years.
Liberals dropped their anti-war positions as soon as Obama wrecked Libya. You went from standing up for freedom to literally shilling for the national security state.
I mean, I agree with you lmao, I moreso meant liberal than neoliberal
A lot of people I met that were Vets have told me that it didn't feel like a lost cause to them and I believe that some actually wanted to be there for the long haul. Some wanted US troops there, while others wanted them gone. But war in Afghanistan is nothing new. It's been going on there for centuries.
Completely expected result. They will develop like a combination of the Saudis and Vietnamese. We'll have Sexpat vets returning to Afganistan to retire before long.
Not sure how many "sexpats" there will be in an Islamic theocracy.
Let them take over. Then warn them that if an American citizen so much as gets a paper cut from an Afghani, we'll carpet bomb their country until they can't recognize it anymore.
You can't carpet bomb away an insurgent force that uses guerilla warfare. This is how they've beat every single invading force for centuries.
Yeah. And they will breed and harbour terrorists hell bent on damaging the US.
This is the dumbest, most unempathetic shit man. You’re going to carpet bomb an entire country, mostly full of civilians and innocents, to fight terrorists in guerrilla warfare? Innocent Afghani lives aren’t worth any less than innocent white lives, although we definitely pretend that they are. This is the sigma male of finance trying to be an alpha male in geopolitical relations. Show them how long your cock is if they touch your civilians. Very mature and very cool.
Calm down man. I'm obviously exaggerating. What I really mean is tell them we will retaliate if an American is harmed by a terrorist in Afghanistan. I don't literally want to carpet bomb the country to rubble.
I wonder if they’ll have diversity programs for women and LGBTQ people
Looking very unlikely at the moment
They're called DIE programs.
Breaking News: Female Analysts in the Moelis Kandahar office have reported a drastic increase in wlb
Moelis Kandahar 😂 im dead
Not our problem. Government we tried to impose on them was totally fake - no popular support whatsoever. Place just became a giant grift where contractors pick the pockets of the American Treasury.
I can see where you're coming from, especially since the country's borders are not recognized by the tribes that inhabit the region. No unification in the country at all and the people never believed in an "Afghanistan." They probably don't even know what an Afghan is.
That I’m not sure of. Not saying you are wrong, I just flat out don’t know. What’s clear to me is that the people of Afghanistan have no interest whatsoever in democracy or the project of the enlightenment. Frankly that is totally fine. We should let them live how they want to live.
Glory to the victors against decadent NATO imperialism.
For sure you've been browsing /pol/ all day long haven't you?
How I feel every time someone starts talking about Islamic nations regressing into self-imposed chaos. We shouldn't be going into these countries in the first place.
"B-but it's a sunk cost! Sunk-cost fallacy don't you know oh my god!!" can't believe that clown got as much SBs as he did yesterday
Posted the below on the other thread...
"It's so funny to me when people who have never sat in an intelligence briefing, never been in a combat zone, never put their lives on the line, never held a security clearance, never read through scores of intelligence reports, or never have been tasked by a Presidential or Congressional administration from both political parties to carry out an operation, BUT instead read a few articles, watch their favorite news network and/or had a professor tell them all about war and politics and now they're experts on the matters at hand."
"I'll end my rant with this: politicians are hypocritical by nature. It's in their DNA and there's no way around it. These same politicians who shout 'Women's Rights!' (which I'm all for) here in the U.S. and in other Western nations just helped recreate Afghanistan into a place where women's rights will be non-existent."
"Right wing, left wing, both wings, same bird. All are to blame."
- former Navy SEAL's thoughts on the matter
Im sure the navy seals and elite people in the army and intelligence agencies understand Afghanistan very well, but the average Joe who fought in Afghanistan probably doesn’t. It’s a fallacy to say that people who aren’t navy seals are incapable of trying to understand what’s going on
I mean the dead giveaway nobody cares is Saudi Arabia’s relationship with the US.... it’s not as bad as the taliban but woman’s rights certainly aren’t a thing there.
It's not a real threat given the fact that tali rule is likely to be clunky and hamper devipment for the next few years if it stabilizes at all. The potential for afgan to reestablish itself as a safe haven for terrorist attacks is real tho and could be impacftul. But traditional terror groups are realizing that terror is only as effective as its impression on westerners and a lot of westerners have become desensitized. These days, nuclear arsenals and Lasse Faire systems are where real power resides.
Next time they want to prevent a hostile takeover, they should stick with a poison pill.
These arabs can do whatever they want, it's their lands anyway.
Just don't try to barge in Western countries as 'refugee'. The West had enough of Jihad problem.
No surprise, it's pretty much impossible to instill and keep a gov't with purely military presence and force. Machiavelli talked about this. You need settlers too.
It was the only real LT outcome. Whether that means we artifically propped up a corrupt state that wanted to leech off of American generosity for another 20yrs before we had to pull back or whether that simply means that Taliban would have won in 1yr instead of a few months, they were going to take control regardless
Crappy situation but nothing we can do about it, better we wash our hands of it now than after another several decades and tens / hundreds of billions down the drain along with loss of American lives
Good place to re-allocate funds would be to Homeland Security / cybersecurity / etc as the offset spend (but one that will actually have more fixed investments that directly benefit America LT vs. spending incessently into the hole that is Afghanistan)
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