What are the thoughts on this execution?
If you don't know the story here it is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy_Davis_case
In summary, a police officer was shot and killed in 1989, witnesses said Troy Davis killed the police officer and two other people. After some time witnesses recanted their statements not sure for whatever reason. Davis was found guilty and sentenced to death he has appealed a few times but no stay of execution was granted. He is being put to death tonight now basically...
Ridiculous that he brought it to the scotus. Just read Scalia's dissent from a while back re: 2009 forcing the fed. dist. court to rehear w/ new evidence, my favorite quote so far:
Lol. Good legal opinion here:
http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/08pdf/08-1443Scalia.pdf
So lemme get this straight...there were 34 witnesses to this guy shooting a police officer and then standing over him and firing again- just to make sure he was dead. The pistol ammo matched ammo from a previous shooting that Davis was convicted for. 20 years after the trial ended, 7 witnesses changed their stories...some not even changing their opinion of who the killer was.
No DNA was found...but the guy just shot the police officer (after pistol whipping a bum) unprovoked. Twice. The police officer (married father of two) didn't even have time to draw his gun. What evidence did they expect to find?
The fact that it took 22 years to execute the guy is the real failure of the Justice System.
There should be no death penalty in the first place.
Everything you just wrote was wrong.
It doesn't matter, if there is any shroud of doubt the death penalty should not be involved. I don't know the specific facts of the case, so I will not comment there. However, in any case where there is some doubt involved, the death penalty should not be used. I personally condemn the death penalty; I cannot understand why pro-life must-save-every-baby-from-abortion nutjobs endorse it.
Also, MMB, where did you read he there were 34 witnesses? Most reports I have read state that there were 9 witnesses, of which 7 recanted.
Disgusting.
America ranks 5th in the world for number of executions, behind China, Iran, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia. So the next time you wanna make a crack about those fucking savages, consider the company your own country is keeping.
^This. People in the US don't seem to realize that the death penalty is a huge black mark on the US' human rights record. Other countries laugh at us when we try to impose human rights requirements in the UN while continuing to execute our own civilians. It puts us in the company of some of the worst human rights offenders in the world.
The death penalty is more expensive than life sentences (when factoring in appeals costs). Innocent people, without a doubt, have been executed. It is ridiculous this is still in existence in America.
Great point Ed. How can Americans, with a straight face, complain about another country's human rights record? We kill our own citizens, imprison over 1% of our population,have multiple departments that's main function is to attack Americans for what they put in their own bodies, kill thousands of people in Afghanistan every year, we have killed hundreds of thousands in Iraq, maimed countless others, killed 5 million people in Vietnam, displaced another 2 million Iraqis, we are also bombing Yemen, bombing Pakistan, bombing Somalia and bombing Libya.
There's just too much doubt. I'm not saying he's innocent. I'm saying that if he is, there will be no way to fix that mistake. The number of witnesses is 9, 7 of whom have recanted their testimony and some have alleged police cohertion. 1 of the 2 witnesses left is also a suspect. People is not asking him to be released, but no one wants the blood if an innocent man in their hands. The role of the legal system is to ensure that we do what's the best for the society. We are making a bet.
We are betting the life of a man that the society will be safer without him. A man that could be an innocent.
We might also, with this bet, be leaving free some guy who could be the murder, a murderer who got away with his crime and runs free in the streets.
When taking a decision that cannot be changed, there is a need for everyone to be aware of it. The GA board of parole was divided when they had to vote if they suspended Troy's death sentence. When 40% of the people have doubts, you cannot and should not make a decision like murdering a man.
This forum is full of shit about people getting sentenced to death in Iran, Saudi Arabia or wherever. What about the USA.
It's a bit ironic that you mentioned the first part and followed it by the second. The judges, whom have infinite more experience than any of us, decided that the recantation of said statements weren't enough to overturn the initial findings...probably because of your exact statement. No one wants blood on their hands but that didn't stop jurors, who sat in the courtroom and listened to the testimony, from convicting and sentencing this guy to death...so why isn't that taken into consideration? Oddly, none of the media stories talk about the 2 witnesses that didn't change their statements. I wonder why that is?
Every criminal 'could' be innocent...but our justice system says that if a jury of your peers finds you guilty that you are not innocent...so this guy isn't innocent as people are claiming, he is a convicted murderer.
Both you and Eddie are being melodramatic here. In the US, as I am sure you are both aware yet conveniently left out, the accused are given trials and found either guilty or not guilty based on evidence and testimony...this is not nearly the case in other countries where woman can be murdered because they were forcibly raped and where people are scooped up in the night , thrown in a potato sack and murdered without evidence without a trial and sometimes without the accusation of their guilt.
Point blank...there is no comparison between what is done in the US and what is done in the countries you are referencing.
Regards
BTW No DNA was found and Caliber .38 is one of the most frequent in handguns
Neither of them are even close to be evidence.
This is one of the potential problems with our justice system now that TV shows like CSI exist. Those shows disillusion the jury into believing that guilt can be determined, by science, to within .1% probability...and that just isn't reality. Also, how can you prove guilt if a monozygotic twin could possibly exist? We would basically have no way of convicting anybody of anything.
If DNA evidence was the burden of proof then how was anyone convicted of a crime before 1987?
Ironically, the police seized some shorts from the Davis house but a judge ruled that it was inadmissible because the police used forced to gain entry, or something of the sort. Had that evidence been taken into custody and Davis wasn't at the scene of the crime, when the shooting occurred, that would have provided even more evidence of his proclaimed innocence.
And just so we are straight, I am not saying that what was done was absolutely right but it sickens me to see people talk about how they are ashamed to be an American because of this, when, for all intents and purposes, the legal system was utilized in the manner it was intended and the convicted was not capable, despite many attempts, of garnering enough proof to convince judges of his innocence or his right to a new trial.
Regards
I haven't read enough about the case to comment on the specifics but I'm in favor of the death penalty.
An eye for an eye.
He was convicted. Big difference between that and "he say, she say".
If you don't like how we do it, you can always move to France...
FWIW, Troy Davis was a great college tail back.
i somewhat agree with libor -- in cases where there is blatant proof and evidence you should be thrown in a boiling vat of sulfuric acid.. i dont want a mass serial killer sitting on my prisons books for a while...
I personally don't care that this guy is gone. He wasn't exactly a saint either, and I'm glad he's off the streets. With that said, the death penalty was definitely a rush decision and an example of how the justice system can fail to do its job. Are they just lazy or plain stupid? Maybe we're just following the media hype and the public doesn't know something that the courts do? I am also very pissed off that Coles was able to get away, after several witnesses said it was Coles who did it. What was his punishment? Is he free?
I do feel bad for the dead officer and his family. Army Ranger and a father. He was simply doing his job when he came across these scumbags. So, I really don't care which one of them has to die or to serve a life sentence in order to provide some closure the family. Do all of them for all I care.
I also agree with LIBOR (somewhat), Midas, and Short.
I don't know if I would call 20 years of appeals and several reviews by judges from different courts a "rush". At any rate, one of my points have been that we, as the public, can't possibly know all the information and we certainly don't comprehend the law as well as a sitting judge would. Every case I've ever seen where some was accused of murdering a cop they have their mom on the news yelling about how her baby is a good kid and would never do this and she's waving around his 3rd grade, 2nd quarter report card that states the child was 'adequately performing' in nearly half of the subjects.
As far as the Coles thing is concerned, I read that the defense tried to use the testimony of some witnesses who claimed Coles did the killing, but the defense never put Coles on the stand to rebut the charges and therefor the judge could not take that 'heresay' into consideration. Admittedly the article I read that in wasn't clear about the timeline of that particular issue, so I don't know if it was talking about the original trial or the subsequent reviews, etc.
Regards
We have a word for your brazen use of logic and facts in America: Racism.
Ok, so I have seen some arguments against the execution here. I'll try to address them.
The legal term isn't whether there is any ipossible[/i] doubt, its whether there is any reasonable doubt. This is the thing about the Casey Anthony case, and the O.J. Simpson case - they were both probably let off because the juries thought that there was a possibility of circumstances in which those two didn't murder their respective family member. As MMB mentioned, there were 34 witnesses - testimonies are on page 4-41 here.
http://multimedia.savannahnow.com/media/pdfs/DavisRuling082410.pdf
I don't know what was involved in the changes in the testimony of the 7 of 9 eyewitnesses. However, that still leaves two eyewitnesses with unchanged stories, which is more than enough for a sentence. Further, the changed testimony was considered. From Scalia's dissent:
Guy spent years fighting the evidence, but the states parole board and federal district court both said that the evidence was not significant enough to warrant a retrial. Even when the SCOTUS forced the district court to review more evidence that had been judged not worthy of consideration by the district court, they didn't think it was enough doubt for a retrial/clemency. Basically, there was no reasonable doubt, unless you are saying that the court, paroles board and district court were corrupt or stupid, which would be a pretty heavy claim.
Lol, what are you suggesting dawg, that we need to be more like Europe, dawg? Seriously? And for my personal opinion, executions are not bad, and it's a little odd that you would suggest that we, for executing cop killers, are as reprehensible as the government of China, which makes it a point to torture and kill dissidents and church goers.
See above response to LIBOR.
That may or may not be the case, but it is also irrelevant so long as the majority of people support it.
These do not change the eyewitnesses accounts, and as mentioned by MMB, there wouldn't be much DNA evidence to find. DNA evidence is not required for a conviction, and it is irrelevant that .38 caliber bullets are common, given that the ballistics of the bullets were consistent w/ the murder weapon, which Davis had.
Gonna have to call BS on this for a number of reasons. Firstly, Europeans for instance support the death penalty. It's by judicial fiat by the European Court of Human Rights that the countries do not have the option to. If their democracies were as responsive to the peoples will as ours was, rather than to the judicial activists/elitists they have ruling them, then they would have the death penalty too.
Your second comment just makes the case for a faster execution process. I say, stream line the process - get it all done within say... 2 appeals, max of say, a year or two. Give the cases priority and get those guys dead. Problem solved. Stop defending cop killers so hard.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not 100% against the death penalty (realistically I'm about 98.5% against). I'm just dead set against the way executions are handled.
To my way of thinking, the only time an execution should occur in America is when someone has been convicted by a jury of their peers based on a preponderance of the evidence and beyond any reasonable doubt. If a person has been thusly convicted and is sentenced to death, the execution must be carried out by a member of the victim's immediate family.
If they're so hungry for vengeance justice, then they need to nut up and kill the person themselves, and bear the horror and guilt of taking a life for the rest of their own. Enough of this blood vengeance by proxy bullshit. If no one in the victim's immediate family is willing to do it, the sentence is life in prison. If someone in the victim's immediate family is willing to do it, maybe the act will bring the victim's family a modicum of peace and closure. But I doubt it.
Enough of this pussy standing back letting someone else do the dirty work. If somebody killed my wife or kids, you can bet your ass I wouldn't want some dipshit civil servant throwing the switch on the guy. That's my job as a husband and father. If I don't have the stones to do it, I should just shut the fuck up.
Out of curiousity, how do you mesh this with your statement that countries that perform executions are savage? Do you promote savagery? That would seem to be a bit of a contradiction.
Because doing it this way would be a much closer approximation to "justice" than the current system of faceless executioners. Everyone is more than happy to scream for justice, but if they had to carry out the execution themselves, I'm guessing the execution rate would be close to nill (as it should be for any civilized nation).
Yes, executions would still happen and no one would fault the victim's family for carrying them out. But the current system is an utter failure. What does it achieve? Justice? Hardly. Deterrence? Give me a fucking break. I say let the people who've been most grievously harmed by the crime carry out the sentence. Seems only right.
Bahaha...the reason they won't let you do it Eddie is because you would have the whole fucking place strobing like Studio 54, flipping the switch back and forth and making the guy suffer, lol.
Regards
Could not have missed the initial intent of the death penalty more.... It is not for vengence, it's to get the cunt killer off of the face of the earth. Personally, i don't give a fuck who kills the person, just as long as they are killed. The faster and cheaper the better...
^^ I love that haha.
@seabird I'm a die hard libertarian, so the less the government does the better in my book. In this particular case, I don't believe anyone other than the victim's family has the right to carry out an execution.
As for gun ownership, I would advocate mandatory gun ownership and carriage, except that would infringe on someone's right to not own/carry a gun. The numbers don't lie: the areas where gun ownership is widespread are the lowest crime areas in the country.
That's why I stay strapped homie!! +1 for GA's open carry laws. Yeah buddy!!
Regards
ive heard this before but im not sure that i buy it. I think that its more accurate to say "areas where LEGAL gun ownership is widespread are the lowest crime areas in the country"
I can guarantee you that when they take these statistics they are not counting the countless gang bangers and criminals that are packin heat which i believe would totally skew the statistics
Lol, ya, people who illegally own guns are in fact more likely to use them for illegal purposes. Should also add that where gun ownership becomes illegal, violent crime increases, i.e. washington d.c. in the 70s. When theres less disincentive to commit crime, more of it happens.
cphbravo, I completely agree with you. I said rushed and lazy mostly because of the Coles guy. I feel like they should've been digging deeper. It's shady to me, and that aspect of the case deserved more consideration (as soon as the witnesses started to change the story). That's just my uneducated opinion, I have no idea how the law works. Ultimately, I would want them both gone one way or the other.
Anybody notice that the guy who dragged James Byrd to his death in Texas was also executed last night?
Another case that fits into the 1.5% of my mind that thinks the death penalty isn't so bad.
I still think it would have been better if they chained him to the back of the Byrd family station wagon and let the family take him for a "spin".
I was actually going to mention this Eddie. This was partly my lack of concern for the whole Davis case, people have been lighting up FB and Twitter talking about how he swears he is innocent and that means he shouldn't be executed because that provides doubt and/or that "state sanctioned killings are still murder"...yet no one has dare mentioned the case where white guys killed a black guy. I also asked a friend of a friend whether prison is just state sanctioned kidnapping and she promptly deleted my post. Go figure.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/nationnow/2011/09/troy-davis-lawrence-b…
Regards
Troy had 14 appeals, 22 years to fabricate a story, 3 execution extensions and the Supreme Court intervening. I'm not sure how this isn't an open and shut case.
^^Liberals will never bring that up. It doesn't fit into their narrative of the justice system being racist.
I have to ask, why do people sentenced to death, when shown in public, have bullet proof vests on?
I mean aren't they forgetting something?
I refuse to pay for this cop-killer to take hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxpayer money, so he can play Bocce and basketball for the rest of his life. The death penalty is an effective deterrent to crime and who cares about what other people think of America?
Weren't you in another thread the other day advocating pro-life and calling abortion murder?
Well I'm glad this didn't turn into a race war as I thought it would.
This quote stands out to me
I'm not sure about the fabricate a story or whatever but the rest of it is fact, there is no disputing that. My big issue is he has was in jail for 22 years which is ridiculous if someone is sentenced to death they certainly need to speed the process up there is no way the death sentence should cost more to the taxpayer than life in prison. Also not sure how many people have twitter but if you read some of the tweets that talk about this under the # RIPTroyDavis you see the general population of the world is clueless. People were blaming Clarence Thomas saying he failed black people and other ridiculous bullshit and that our system is broken. My issue with all that is only now that you hear about this cause this guy has had 3 execution dates prior to him being executed yesterday why wasn't this uproar all those other times. I'm tired of this reactionary mentality we have in our culture were we don't prevent shit we just like everything hit the fan before we say there is problem. I'm not saying he is innocent but for all the people saying the system failed him xyz xyz where were you and what were you saying before the first execution date?
Also bitching on twitter fuck is that going to do? Those same people who complained on twitter saying "we need change" "the system is broken" aren't going to do anything to fix the system so I can't understand why they continue to complain.
/endrant.
They should execute all prisoners on death row after 5 years. Expedite trials and appeals between 0-5 years, but that fifth year should be their last possible. This system of unlimited appeals, memories fading, etc. is pure bullshit. The average time spent on death row is 14 years. It is a disgrace and a waste of money.
The only black mark against the US is that we rank 5th, not 1st in number of executions.
Yea! Killing people is awesome! The only thing holding the US back is that we aren't putting down enough of our citizens!
Good call, we should release more of those "citizens" you like so much and send them to your neighborhood.
To me, a citizen is someone who takes an active role in society and, at the very least, contributes as a whole...not someone who is either a murderer or who hangs out with murderers why they pistol whip people.
Then again, I'm just a silly idealist.
Regards
Yeah, we should just provide room and board, at tax payer expense, for the rest of their lives because we don't want to pull the trigger.
This case might of been handled badly, but you take a persons life you have yours taken. I think we should expand the death penalty to rape and child molestation. Firing squad also. We waste so much money with these rube Goldstein contraptions just to kill a person.
I love how snooty Europe always is. Germany and the rest of the axis countries murdered enough women and children in the recent past that they should shit their fucking mouth.
And once again, why on earth should we care what Europe thinks. Last time I checked they exist solely because of the USA. To think American blood was shed to save those losers.
However ANT, you seem to not care what the Chinese think, or OPEC, yet without them you'd be finished.
You didnt intervene in WW2 out of the kindness of your hearts. Some Americans did, (in both world wars) but the government at the time did not.
1) The Chinese care about us a lot more than we care about them. When you are owed trillions you sure as fuck worry if we will pay. FYI, we owed China a lot of money under Bush, but we weren't treated like bitches. It is the man in charge that is a pussy.
2) OPEC? You mean the organization of states that is deathly afraid of the country that rolls over Arab armies like Germany rolled over the French in WWII? We get most of our oil from Canada and South America. The ME prices oil in dollars, which we print at will. Once again, who has who by the sack.
3) Whether we did it out of altruism or self interest, we still saved their backs. We saved them from the Nazi's and we saved them from the Communists. Honestly, with the way they act now, we should of let the Germans have Europe.
We execute murderers. Big deal. That doesn't make us monsters, it makes us sane. I apologize if I don't cry inside because someone who takes a life has theirs taken. It is pretty damn hard to get executed. Those that get it generally deserve it.
Where is the outcry over the white guy killed in TX? No one gives a shit about that guy.
Just curious to get other people's opinions about what they see in the following picture...
http://athenscms.com/oa/zenphoto/092111-troy-davis-execution/092111_tro…
Regards
I see a cop trying to spank the guy on the ground with an open hand.
Not that I am anti abortion, but comparing an unborn kid to someone who freely chose to kill another person is rather silly, don't ya think?
First there was no DNA evidence against the guy. Just a bunch of witnesses who later changed their stories. Second, abortion don't kill human beings they kill a cell that is an amalgam of sperm and egg
The Death Penalty isn't evil..?
1) There are different stages of abortion. It stops looking like cells real quick dude.
2) DNA is not the make or break pal. The guy was convicted, multiple witnesses. Multiple tying evidence and 22 years work of appeals.
Dealth Penalty is perfectly fine. Nothing evil.
Those witnesses could have conspired against the guy.
You had about 30 something witnesses who identified this dude. Later on a few changed their story. Imagine 10 years after a trial someone hammering you and a person's life is on the line. More times than not people will fold a little.
34 witnesses.
Bullet shells were linked to a PREVIOUS shooting this guy was busted for.
7 out of 12 jurors were black.
No racism, no miscarriage of justice. This dude was a criminal, he got caught, he had his multiple days in court and the justice system eventually carried out his sentence.
I love how all the anti death penalty people never wanted this guy freed. Just not executed. As if life in jail as an innocent man is better than death.
Let me get a paddle before all of you cry me a river.
Hold up....you're comparing a COP KILLER with an unborn child? That is so outrageous I cannot believe it. I said that killing an innocent is wrong, and all unborn children have done nothing wrong, they were just conceived.
Witnesses conspiring against the guy? Couldn't you say that for every crime? Ivan Boesky went to jail for insider trading...where's the DNA? Other than conspicuous timing, why did the SEC move in.
Conspiracy is a ridiculous theory. Even in the case of DNA evidence, would you have accepted it if his skin cells were at the scene? No. It might just be a coincidence. So it is obviously a conspiracy that multiple witnesses saw him shoot an off duty cop, then pop him another- just to make sure he was dead. No matter that he was wearing the same clothes as the killer, admitted to being at the scene, had his clothes WITH DNA evidence cleaned (later deemed inadmissible because entry was forced), and was found guilty of a shooting years before using the same gun (caliber and bullet markings). Hmmm... maybe you should contact David Icke about this one.
I am still cracking up after your, "lets beat kids so their academic performance increases" argument.
Abortion doesn't even rise to the position of execution. Abortion isn't done by the government, its done by women on themselves. Execution is the killing of a full-fledged adult by the government. It is verifiable that the government has killed many innocent people before. Its not done to keep Americans safe, while abortions have been proven to keep Americans safe by greatly reducing crime over the last 40 years. Being for a woman's right to choose is much better than being for the death penalty.
People are against abortion because they believe that unborn children are innocent? That is strange. How could they be anything but innocent, they are nothing more than cells. Most people, and I am talking from my own personal experiences, are against it because of medieval beliefs and their own belief in the supremacy of the state.
Republicans: The government sucks, it can't do anything, it can't even run the postal service. Normal person: So, if the government is so bad, why does it have the right to kill people? Republicans: Some people need to die! Normal person: So, should the federal government have the right to kill their own citizens at will? Republicans: ....
lol what.
It is the truth. Republicans complain a shit ton about government intervention yet they want the government to be able to kill its own citizens. Utter buffoonery.
EOK, what would you suggest we do with these death row inmates if not execution?
What virtually every other developed country does, focus on rehabilitation, and if that is not the case, sentence them to spend the rest of their natural lives in prison.
EOK, let me get a life vest before your bleeding heart fires up.
Rehabilitating a cop killer. Dude, we already do that. It's call potassium cyanide.
I wish we could make a list of liberals so people who rob, steal and kill them can get sent to Sweden for punishment.
Iran, China, the ME, they are human rights violators because they punish and harm INNOCENT CIVILIANS. Killing a convicted murderer is not violating human rights. Cutting the hand off a starving 12 year old is.
Liberals will use any fact to twist the argument in their favor. They will not be happy until the USA becomes like Europe, an arthritic and decaying country/nation. Makes me sick.
Besides, getting a death penalty conviction is very, very hard. Evidence needs to be solid, plea bargains need to be ignored, multiple appeals need to be shot down. It isn't as if we execute people on a whim.
30+ people eye witnessed this guy shell casing from a PREVIOUS shooting matched the murder weapon and was tied to him
A jury comprised of 7 black members and 5 white members convicted him.
Justice was served.
Rehabilitating a cop killer. Hilarious. Liberals always pity the murderer, never the person killed or the grieving family. Makes me sick.
Liberals always care about the people who take from the system and only want to abuse those who give to the system.
Everyone cares about a convicted felon dying, but no one gives a shit about the cops family who will never have a father/husband.
Oh, it's cool bro, lets rehabilitate you. All good.
I said rehabilitate or, IF NEEDED, let them spend the rest of their natural lives in prison. I am a libertarian, not liberal.
A straw man if there ever was one. How does executing someone help the family of the victim? I am very curious about this. The family loses a wage earner. Does execution help the person's family?
Democrats: The government is awesome, it can do everything better than we can...look, it manages to deliver tens of millions of unwanted fliers and brochures and it only cost the tax payers a few billion dollars. What a bargain, huh? Normal person: So, if the government is so great, why do you think it shouldn't execute those found guilty of murdering other citizens? Democrats: Because life is so precious! Normal person: So, what about unborn babies? Aren't they actually innocent and equally precious?? Democrats: Where did I leave those gardening shears??
That is the shit that drives me nuts about liberals. You have to bend the truth in an effort to make the right seem like they are unreasonable. Where in this thread has anyone said that the government should be able to kill it's citizens at will?
Hint: No where!
Regards
Dude, if you think there is some type of substantive difference between democrats and republicans in regards to fiscal policy, you are delusional. I remember from 2001 to 2009 we had a Republican who increased spending, lied to start wars without paying for them, doubled the Defence Department, created a useless department called the Department of Homeland Security, created Medicare part D, no child left behind.... you get my drift. I love how peons get drawn into this... left versus right BS. Right now, your party of blind men and retards isn
Your faux conversation is so comical. How does being for big government equate with wanting to kill people? Bush was for big government and he wanted to kill people, I guess that is what you mean, hey? So, if someone, like Romney is for Social Security, he should automatically be for killing someone? Does that make sense to you?
The government does have the right to kill citizens at WILL. Since, at the behest of government employees, aka JUDGES and the GOVERNOR, they can kill people. That is at-will, aka by choice. Just because it takes a long time doesn't make any less discretionary. We have killed many innocent people and saved many more from the same fate.
I am a libertarian and you are a big government hypocrite.
Dude, abortion is none of your god damn business!!! It is between a woman, her significant other and her doctor. Give it a fucking break. Do you honestly believe limiting abortion to those who can fly out of the country to Canada or Mexico will make America better? You do realize abortions has greatly reduced crime over the past 30 years, right?
yawn
Regards
Is it bad that I can't help but see great logic in what ANT and cphbravo are saying? (I am pro-choice though, religious bs shouldn't be influencing anything government related).
While on the topic of executions, what can we do about this trash that has gathered at Liberty Square at the moment?
EOK, we will have to agree to disagree. The biggest difference Libertarians face within their factions is the belief/disbelief in the death penalty. I happen to believe in it.
I really don't know why Libertarians would be against the death penalty. A core tenant of libertarianism is that your actions and liberty do not effect or cross over onto another persons right to liberty. Taking a life is the more heinous form of taking away another persons freedom.
Libertarianism is about maximizing liberty, personal responsibility and limited government. It is not about no government and no laws/rules.
We already distinguish motive with murder. This guy shot a cop and then stood over him and executed the guy.
Let's look at the facts.
7 people eye witnessed this dude. 2 people heard him confess. Shell casing from the scene match shell casings from a previous shooting he was involved in.
The conviction, by a fair jury, happened in 1991.
in 2009, 18 years late, the Supreme Court ordered that the case be re looked at.
Defense said some, not all, of the eye witnesses recanted or changed their story.
NO SHIT! 18 years and someone telling you a man will die can do wonders on your memory.
Davids confession to the police was thrown out.
The conviction was upheld.
Dude was on death row for 22 years. The Supreme Court heard this guy. Numerous trials, protests, etc. The people, the legal system, the prison system, all functioned as they should.
Justice served.
I am against the death penalty because we have killed innocent people before and its not within the government's purview to sentence its citizens to death. Also at the current momment is more costly to execute someone than it is to leave that person to rot in prison.
Also, I will have to laugh at your "rehabilitation is impossible" comment. We already allow killers out of prison and murderers out of prison. People deemed responsible for another's death through manslaughter are usually sentenced to between 2 and 12 years. 2nd and 3rd degree murderers are let out of prison. Some first degree murderers are let out of prison also. We should make sure these people learn skills and are watched prudently so they don't become a burden on society.
Also, you can look at Scandanavian countries low rates of recividism as a sign the rehabilitation does work.
1) The government does put someone to death. A jury of fellow citizens do.
2) I mention that there are different degrees of murder, based on intent. This guy executed a wounded cop.
3) We do rehabilitate. Not every prison is Pelican Bay. There is church, books, internet, schooling. The issue is that not many people want to hire a convicted arsonist or armed robber.
Maybe, just maybe, we have different issues than Scandinavian counties do.
So let me get this straight. Someone harms me, robs me, rapes me and for their "punishment" they get a cushy, short sentence?
Sorry if I think people should be punished. When you get out you should do everything to not go to jail again. But alas, free people making personal decisions decide to continue with their life of crime.
It's cool dude. Whenever someone steals from you I will 100% support them not going to jail. When someone assaults you I will personally fly them to the Bahama's for some R&R to help them learn from their mistake.
I can support that if you want.
The cost of all this is insane. A $.50 bullet and a maximum number of years they can be on death row would do the trick.
The system works. 138 people have had their cases overturned. That is why DNA has become so important and why we have so many appeals.
Thanks for supporting CPH and my point. You da man.
Give me ONE EXAMPLE of someone proved to be innocent after they were executed. Oh wait...there are none.
Linking abortion and crime is such crappy statistics it is ridiculous. You could probably link the civil rights movement to increased crime, cell phones to increased crime, hel...pretty much anything to crime. Considering crime has increased as a whole over the past century, anything that has been used during that time can be linked.
I have a good alternative to abortion...adoption!!!!! WTF is that you say? It's a "procedure" that costs nothing to the biological parent, can be painless, and doesn't kill anyone. Amazing....
That's kinda like saying "name me one sports team that has won a championship after the season was already over".
But here you go: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executed-possibly-innocent
Jesus. Dude you might want to try to read a book. Todd Willingham was proven INNOCENT after an investigation by national arson investigators. You know, there is thing called Google. You can type questions in and have them answered aptly. 138 people since 1973 have been released from death row. Thus, many more innocent people were probably killed.
Linking abortion to crime is fairly concrete. http://escholarship.org/uc/item/00p599hk;jsessionid=C5CC311C325661E5646… http://pricetheory.uchicago.edu/levitt/Papers/DonohueLevittTheImpactOfL…
Dude, it is basic intuition. The people who were most likely to get abortions were poor single women. Who are more likely to commit crime. Males, born in poor single parent households!!! Crime has decreased, rapidly.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/4675970-418/story.html http://www.examiner.com/us-intelligence-in-national/censored-news-viole…
[quote = examiner] Awesome news! U.S. Department of Justice reports show that violent crime has dropped by over half in the last 15 years. What incredible, uplifting news we can celebrate! But you haven't heard about this. Why was this news censored?
Adoption doesn't cost anything? How about the cost of bearing the child? And you do know only a scintilla of kids put up for adoption are adopted. Many are raised by the state or subjected to rotating foster homes.
To verify this inspiring news, see the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) graph and information here and here. The biggest drop occurred between 1994 and 2004.
Continue reading on Examiner.com Censored news: Violent crime decreases over 50 percent in last 15 years - National US Intelligence | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/us-intelligence-in-national/censored-news-viole…]
CPH, don't worry. In Europe no one makes mistakes. I mean being in prison for my entire life is entirely cool on a mistake. Just don't execute me after 22 years.
No need to move. Tea Party is righting the ship. Cut Cut Cut Cut.
Also, yes, we live in a Democracy. 58% of Americans think the death penalty is fine.
You have the following options
1) Vote against it and try and change opinions
2) Move
3) Continue to whine
Looks like CPH's advice was consistent with Democracy and the present situation.
What's the difference between 1 and 3 except for the fact that when ANT agree with you it's #1 and when ANT doesn't agree it's #3?
I like being right and I like being supported by people who think I'm right but I love when the person on the other side of the debate proves that I'm right. LOL.
Regards
I feel like there is a fundamental difference between trying to inform and present the facts with the hopes that people might change their opinion or maybe view things from the other side. Whining is much more about bitching about people not thinking like you do or just being pig headed.
I do a mixture of both at times so we are all guilty of it.
A scintilla of kids put up for adoption are adopted...well you are aware that sometimes people put up children for adoption well after birth? Most if not all children put up for adoption pre-birth are adopted, and not "subjugated" to foster homes. Oh and I'd rather be in a foster home than dead...but that's just me personally.
Cost of bearing the child? Wtf? We are quantifying mental anguish now? Because all the monetary costs are covered, so that must be what we are doing here. Can I be paid for the mental anguish that the state subjected ME to when I was forced to get a B+ in math in 10th Grade? For all I know that could have forever hindered my earnings potential. Millions in reparations are needed! NOW!
Are you saying having a kid is free? Who covers the monetary cost? First, you have to pay to see a doctor beforehand, buy things like vitamins, accoutrements, etc. Also, you have a child's grasp of economics so I will have to break this down, there are costs that aren't explicit. These costs are called opportunity costs. An opportunity cost is the cost of not doing something. In regards to having a kid, the OC is lost wages. That is right, having a kid can be a fairly pernicious time period. Many woman can't work at all before and after the birth of their kid. That means they lose wages. Also, having a kid reduces your ability to invest in your own human capital, because you have to care for the kid afterwards. That is right young man, there are long run costs, especially for the vast majority of those seeking abortions. A woman who dreams of being a dentist may have suspend her quest or cancel it all together due to the cost of raising a child on her lonesome.
But forget that, just say abortion should be banned because..... its bad!!! No analysis. Its bad.
How is it a straw man. A persons life was taken. The other person paid with his life. Justice done.
I don't see Al Sharpton at the woman's house, talking to her about her lose. About how everyone cares about the guy who executed a defenseless man, but not the family of that man.
Execution is about punishment. The fact that no one gives a shit about the woman who had a husband murdered is what is bullshit.
Why are you, cph, tx all operating under the assumption that everyone executed was in fact guilty of their crime? Seems naive (or blissfully ignorant) to me.
Where did I say that? I said I think justice was served with Troy Davis.
When a person creates a crime such as murder he loses his rights, therefore he is no longer covered by Libertarian belief (government intervention basically), in my opinion of course.
Please tell me what point I should use to base my argument off. If we are talking generally i support the death penalty. If we are talking in this case, I support the death penalty. If we are talking about different circumstances I might support life instead.
Yes, I operate under the assumption that after numerous trials and appeals as well as a jury that has to find you guilty, beyond a shadow of a doubt, if you are then found guilty you are indeed guilty. Additionally, we execute a tiny tiny amount of our overall murdering population. This is because it has such a high standard and people generally don't want to execute others. That being said, I think it is a valid punishment and something that is justified.
If you choose adoption you don't raise the kid yourself. This argument is asinine. People who set up adoptions beforehand have the costs covered by the adoptee. Including doctor's visits, hospital stays, hell my parents even paid for my birth other's rent!
You don't seem like an Economics major, considering that all your opportunity costs appear to relate to if the woman raises the child- something that doesn't happen in this case. I admit there are certain opportunity costs, but maternity leave is a federal law and overall there are very few.
If you support abortion because it would reduce crime rates, why don't we kill all felons convicted of anything greater than petty theft? I believe that that would reduce crime rates fairly rapidly. But wait, don't we believe in second chances (up to a point)? I guess you don't, the unborn don't even get a first chance.
You don't seem like a student at one of America's "best" universities especially after our last go around where you advocated for beating kids to improve performance. I provided info for the OC of raising a kid because you probably have never thought of it. Also, giving a kid, especially after going through the rigours of birth is tough.
What proportion of women are capable of having such a cushy relationship with the people who want to adopt her kid. Yes, some people will be able to find someone who wants to adopt their kid, but I highly doubt that can even be descriptive of 80%+ of the people who give up kids for adoption, especially with our current economic malaise. http://birthmothersjourney.iarbiz.com/VIQWTKl8B6g= http://adopthelp.squarespace.com/blog/category/birth-mother-questions
Out of curiosity, I looked up websites that streamline the adoption process. There are only a handful of couples on each of these sites. You should be ashamed for trying to cast such a positive light on giving up a child.
You aren't particularly bright. I don't support the perfunctory execution of PEOPLE. A bundle of cells without the ability to form thoughts isn't a person. Secondly, there are far more humane ways to fight crime. One way is to limit our penal code. If we limit the number of crimes, we would reduce crime. End the drug war. That would obliterate gangs and end most of the crime in inner cities. End the minimum wage. That would put almost every inner city kid to work instead of hanging out on a stoop. Kick out illegals who have been convicted of a crime. Fix education by privatizing the schools. Let corporations compete with community schools so we can drive down costs and drive up performance. End the business/corporate tax so millions more people can earn a wage.
Your alternative was stupid.
w/e man. It is honestly hilarious that you think it is more moral to kill a child than an adult. That it is more moral to kill a child than give it up to live with parents who can provide care and love. My "alternative" was obviously sarcastic, and if you can't see that...well I'm not gonna stoop to your level and call you stupid.
When did I say it was moral to kill a child? That is your problem isn't it? Morality. The government shouldn't be in the business confirming to whomever's in powers morality. Bad results always follow.
But, the reason that murder is illegal is that it is immoral (or taking away liberties). Murder is killing someone....hmmm sounds familiar doesn't it?
@eokpar02 Just wanted to clear up a misconception you have about adoption in America. There is far greater demand for newborn infants than there is supply. I know this because I went through it. Adoption in America is a complete racket. They're basically selling babies. My wife and I paid all of one woman's pre-natal expenses (and I mean ALL - rent, phone, groceries, everything) and a week before the kid was born she reneged on the deal and we found out a couple months later she sold the kid to someone else for more money.
I hate how mercenary that sounds, but I don't feel like going into the nuance of it. It's selling kids, plain and simple. But there's enough of a market for newborns that there's no real burden on a woman who wants to carry to term. She can even make some good money at it.
Okay, that is my fault. I will apologize to MMBinNC since I knew nothing about adoption of newborns. What did you do to get your money back? How do you choose a baby? Did you meet the woman beforehand? I might write an iPhone app to get on this racket.
You don't get your money back, it's just tough luck. It's illegal to apply any pressure whatsoever to a birth mother to get her to reconsider or even hold up her end of what she's already agreed to. You don't choose the kid - the birth mother chooses you. She is literally presented with a list of parents who want to adopt and she picks the ones who look like the best fit (or will pay her the most). We never met the birth mother, and I think that's pretty common. The adoption agencies don't want prospective parents meeting birth mothers for fear of getting cut out of the middle and losing those juicy fees.
This whole conversation is very interesting to me; quite the opposite of what I would've expected. For a forum that is most often considered to be libertarian and rational in their decision-making, I'm pretty surprised by this thread.
I will always be against the death penalty. Period. It's not a matter of left or right, Republican or Democrat. To me, the real issue comes down to the discrepancies of the justice system. Every year, hundreds, if not, thousands of innocent people are sent to jail. The logic only follows that many innocents are sentenced to death every year and in my opinion, unless you can be 100% sure that each person that is sentenced to death is completely guilty, they shouldn't be executed. Put yourself in the shoes of a wrongly convicted; not one innocent human life is worth 50 guilty murderers lives, period.
Only a matter of time until the US catches up with the rest of the world.
Is the imprisonment of every guilty person in the country not worth the unjust punishment of a single innocent one?
Yeah bro, don't hold your breath. The rest of the world should take a page from our playbook. FYI the USA sets the pace, not the other way around.
Yeah man, women are shitty drivers!! I can't wait to catch up with the rest of the world...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2011-09-26/saudi-woman-driver-…
Regards
"I always err on the side of life" -Presidential hopeful Rick Perry, 9/22/11
(signed off on 234 executions)
Haha good find.
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