Having a really tough time in PE…
Just started a new role at a NYC MF. Transition has been really challenging. Feel like there is no time for anyone to teach me how to do certain things and I’ve been making a lot of mistakes under time pressure. Some hostile mid-levels and seniors making the dynamic more challenging with people constantly throwing each other under the bus. Has made for a rough learning environment. I’m trying to trust the process but I feel like I’m just too far behind the experience curve than my peers. How long did it take you new associates (and maybe those of you who didn’t have the most technically robust analyst experiences in IB) to feel like you had a decent enough handle on the job to where you could actually operate efficiently and know what you were doing?
What specific day to day responsibilities do you find yourself struggling to complete efficiently and / or accurately?
Similar to what the poster below said - the level of modeling detail with inability to bounce questions off of people in any capacity until the 11th hour when there really isn’t time for questions. And the inability to work during the day with the entirety of it being taken up by meetings and presentations. Too much time spent formatting and spreading comps again as well but no Factset…
Same boat… few months in at a large cap fund. Came from banking and felt like I had a pretty technical banking run but this job is kicking my butt.
Modeling is way more intense and on way tighter time lines and there’s 0 oversight on my work while I’m in progress followed by intense scrutiny after it’s done.
Banking was intense while I was in it but I could always call an associate / vp if I had a question and someone was always there to check things. Now, I’m told to build a model in two days on a business I know nothing about, they expect all sorts of fancy tax asset builds, and then once it’s done and in a deck my seniors circle a bunch of numbers that “feel off”. Not to mention I spend the entire day in meetings / doing other work (random port co calls, expert interviews, etc) that all my work actually gets done late at night.
Curious if / when people start to actually feel comfortable in this role or if it’s always this tough
Quote function messed up - but guess associates and VPs are indeeed helpful despite what more Analyst 2 tends to think. Ask that principal of yours to roll up sleeves and split the work next time
Same boat mate, joined a umm fund from a different environment and last year was very quiet. On second live deal now and in tears. Not sure if I'm stupid or the job is hard. Finding it so hard to even give a shit to deliver things on time but also constantly working till 2 am
The job is hard, it’s not you
How did you guys all pass the tough modeling interview stage? Don’t you have to build models from scratch and defend your assumptions during the interview process? There are no senior associates you can ask for advice, you’re all silo’s off?
Modelling tests are very different to doing it in reality
Obviously know the modelimg tests are a not super detailed at all but could you just explain the main differences vs the PE models you do on the real job and the simple model tests or even the high level LBO's in banking.
I’m nearing the end of my third year. Job is just really tough. It’s partially a game of attrition and you need very thick skin. I’m confident to say I’m one of the best performing associates in our large cap fund and I’m at least once a quarter overwhelmed to the point I want to quit. To give your colleagues some slack for not being available, they have even more shit to deal with. It will get better before it gets a bit worse again. But overall it’s an upward trending line. A lot of stuff you’re doing for the first time now will become easy eyes closed, and you may get some leverage from first year associates eventually
Unless it’s affecting your mental health too badly I’d encourage you to try to stick it out for a bit longer. Can’t say there’s light at the end of the tunnel but it’ll get better and you will get better
How long did it take you to preemptively know what to do next in a live deal process? I’m brand new to PE but want to learn how to be creative in putting together analyses that might be useful for IC and just feel like I know what to do next in a deal.
I think this helps with operating autonomously point since the seniors are busier than I am. It’s on me to keep advancing the ball but feel like I’m not there yet
Maybe a year or so for the ‘basics’ / doing core work streams by yourself such as FDD, model, etc., depending on how many deals you do. If you’re new you should be laser focus on doing the tasks asked of you in a 100% error free way (obviously fuck ups happen, but limit them and limit their impact). You’re much better off doing the core job / tasks exceedingly well than doing a bunch of extra stuff and having more mistakes in the stuff you were asked to do. Second, the leeway for ‘creative’ stuff is pretty minimal. I’d always check before you do these as it’s often not necessary / appreciated and will be viewed as a bad allocation of time / bad communication
Lastly, ‘moving the ball forward’ can be done (1) in your own work streams and (2) by getting involved in other parts of the dd. After a year you’ll know how to execute within your own task set. It’ll take more time before you know when to prioritize which areas of the deal and I’d rely on your VP to allocate to new parts of the deal
Your rough step program should be
(1) execute core activities within your scope flawlessly
(2) execute core activities of other parts of the deal flawlessly (ask your VP to get involved / signal you have capacity)
(3) expand on ‘creative’ stuff within your scope (you can flag these to show you’ve seen them but then ask if there are more critical things to do instead, which often there are - see (2))
does that make sense?
This has me terrified. 2nd year in a coverage group that doesn't model going to a MF known for being intense. Anything I should try to teach myself while I'm still in banking?
IMO nothing you self teach will actually be that helpful vs just learning on the job - same way that kids who spend a bunch of time learning before their banking job find out they wasted their energy after about a week on the desk. Outside of the basics of understanding an LBO and making sure you have excel down cold, nothing will move the needle.
My view is just be prepared mentally to work hard and get crushed and come in with the right attitude, that’s 90% of it. Rest will come by doing
Appreciate the insight, thank you
What coverage group if you don't mind me asking?
Same here - going to a umm that hires consultants and bankers equally, should I be as worried / how can I prepare before starting next year?
Similar transition and agreed, pretty brutal. Went from a pretty chill boutique to one of the sweatiest MFs.
The technical learning has been alright - first time I do anything I build it from scratch, even the template, and just tell my team that I am slow and new and take the flak. But this prevents me from having errors in the work and I "own" the model now.
The really really hard part has been 1) intense hours, 7 days a week, averaging 90-100, frequent 5 AMs, have not worked maybe 4 Saturdays since we all started in August. Then you go in again the next morning, not as much leeway when it comes to showing up late like in banking the next day, and not as acceptable to complain about it.
2) very cutthroat, in banking people were working together to make $ and there were politics, but here it's to an extreme. People are sharper, there are less promotions available in general, and due to the fact that there is only a limited amount of capital to deploy it feels like a 0-sum game, and this culture trickles down and permeates all steps of the ladder
Have you been on deals since you started? Continuous 90-100 is rough.
I would say when there is no live deal it is 80-90 a week (still occasionally 100....). When live I've been averaging 100-110, currently in the 3rd consecutive week of 100+.
Fewer promotions* watch your grammar
I had a rough first 6 months on the job at MF PE.
Combination of (1) huge step function change in median intellectual horsepower of my colleagues, (2) real responsibility with no oversight.
Just keep moving forward:
1. ask questions don’t be shy
2. take longer than may be ideal so long as it’s right. Being fast and 90% right < being slow and always 100% right. Obviously the worst is being slow and wrong. I was always slow and always right, first draft was the final draft every time.
It's not that the job is hard. The work is fairly juvenile. It's that bankers are mostly pretty stupid people who think they're intelligent and when finally asked to do real investing feel overwhelmed by it.
Nope, the associate job is definitely hard - not because the work is intellectually genius-level, it’s pretty basic arithmetic and someone clever can pick it up relatively quickly.
It’s balancing multiple workstreams, deadlines, demanding bosses, doing things for the first time with no instruction under intense pressure, sleep deprivation, having situational awareness when no one has told you what’s going on etc.. that’s why it’s hard.
He was just looking for attention
Agree, it’s the cognitive overload. Trying to keep on top of so many things.
Just start a spreadsheet, text processor, and own it. The rest is mail letters, phone calls, meetings, and promotions. Good luck. Your job is to help clients with IPO.
My high level comment would be this -- these firms don't hire you unless you can do the job. Sure some slip through the cracks every now and then, but they wouldn't hire you if there were a bunch of things you couldn't do. Yeah it's probably very discouraging, uncomfortable, overwhelming, stressful, etc, working through a lot of those things but view them as necessary growing pains, pushing you to your best.
First off -- sorry to hear you are going through it.
Second off, this is very normal. The first 6 months (plus or minus a few), it's natural to get up to speed. I remember expecting to get fired at my 6-month check-in and was told I was on track to be above target. That gave me a lot more confidence and I took my foot off the gas slightly to ensure I didn't burnout.
It's a really hard job and takes it all out of you. Some good advice has already been said, but mainly, prioritize your own well-being over the expectations of superiors. If you need to log-off to workout, just do it. Don't always need to reply right away or just say you'll get to it later on.
Also, despite the quick timelines I was always told I should take more time to check my work and proof for mistakes. Truly I still need to work on that, but goes to show the mid-levels and up are more concerned about CYA than if you hit their (often fake) deadlines. Meaning, take an extra spin through the model even if it's late.
Everyone in PE is so Type A and super focused on either comp, getting deals done, or running their own fund at some point that there isn't a ton of time for mentorship. That was one of my biggest complaints as an associate -- there was no formal training and I felt bad asking the senior associates for help. But, if I didn't ask for help my experience would have been even worse -- so try to get over that mental block.
It's an incredibly stressful job -- I managed my stress fine in IB but in PE I did not. I ended up temporarily doing therapy and anti-anxiety drugs to help manage my mental health. Helped a ton, especially in being able to prioritize what needed to be done and what I needed to do for myself.
My own personal decision was to stick with PE until I got a deal done. That way, I'd know what the highs and lows were. I eventually did get that deal done towards the end of my first year, then decided the stress / lifestyle wasn't worth it for the comp. I was planning to either do an MBA or go to a Port Co, but ended up getting a Corp Dev offer. I'm over a year into that and don't have everything solved, but overall I'm much happier with my life (and much healthier mentally and physically).
It's not for everybody long-term, and that's okay. People will say that in a snarky way, but it's actually true. I often thought the people who would say that were actually insecure because a person was able to prioritize their non-work needs and make better choices than devoting one's life to a job.
Feel free to PM me if you need any additional advice and keep your head up! It's pretty common to feel this way.
This is so healthy, thank you for sharing.
Wouldn't have gotten through my (somewhat abbreviated) associate stint without WSO, so good to pay it forward.
Always enjoy reading your posts, thanks for sharing
thanks for sharing and go timberwolves!
Best defense in the NBA!
Thanks so much for the advice. I’m curious on 2 things. 1) If you were given a second chance, would you do Corp Dev right away? Or you think there’s much FOMO of sticking around for a year even need to take med to be mentally healthy 2) when thinking about exits, have joining a startup ever occur to you as one of the exit ops? Thank you! Look forward to hearing your thoughts
Sorry for the few days delay, don't go on here a ton anymore.
Responses to your questions below:
How did you have time to take therapy? Seems like work is just never ending even when you’re out of the office. Tough to mentally check out when you’re stressed about the upcoming day of responsibility.
I blocked off Fridays from 10-11am to do video sessions each week. Outside of jotting down a few notes throughout the week on things I wanted to discuss in that session, it really isn't a ton of time in the swing of things. I just told managers I had doctor appointments or other calls at that time. Went on do not disturb as well to avoid distractions.
Sure, there were a few times I had a bit of a fire drill come up and I had to step out of the session for a moment, but in general, it's 1 hour of the week and while it seems overwhelming at first, it's not too hard to protect. Friday's weren't necessarily slow, but they were the lightest days in terms of 'meetings' so often my work requests would just triage while I was in my session and I could handle afterward.
Hopefully that's helpful, but the main point is to just create boundaries; having the sessions in the morning for me were a helpful way to support as well.
For everyone who has gone through hard times in PE and would stick longer, I am just so curious what is the motivation to keep you stand the 100+ hours/ culture/ tidies of the work and hoping for a light at the end of the tunnel? Really need some insights and inspiration here.
lack of alternative careers that allow them to maintain their incomes/lifestyles
What is even the lifestyle at this point?? The only 10 or 15 days per year of the out-of-prision time is what makes them so motivating? Gotta be something else right, maybe the work itself?
Everyone in PE should quit now, no cap. End of the 40 year bull bond market which was the only reason PE worked. It's going to be an absolute slaughter this decade with little comp that doesn't justify the work environment and hours
What is your precious insights in the market to be in?
Credit
Thanks - isnt the rate super high now, why credit
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